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subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 4:32:38 PM   
ladyangel


Posts: 58
Joined: 1/27/2004
Status: offline 		I am in a position that I'm not sure I want to accept. Or deal with, for that matter.

The partner I am involved with--in an actual relationship---the boy questions almost every decision I make in regards to us and the relationship.

Example-- going into the relationship it was made known that, IN TIME, any slaves becoming Mine would be pierced, possibly tattooed. This conversation has come up, on several occasions. Now, keep in mind, this won't happen for many months to come---now, if at all, with this boy. Anyhow, the discussion was what type of piercing, then where to have it done, came up. I have enough piercings and tattoos to know what type of shop I would go to for any of the work. I am knowledgable in the areas of the health risks of infection, so I am always looking for the sterilization of the instruments, the cleanliness of the shop, the person doing the work, etc. In other words, I'm confident enough where to go Myself, so that is also where I would take anyone else.

Well, the boy wasn't happy with My decision about where to take him for the work. Then, he wanted to know what type of piercings, and when told, decided that he didn't like My choices for those, either. Because, "they look ungodly tacky".

Now, I have made My opinion on this subject known, several times. So why am I continuously faced with "why" this and "why does it have to be done like this?".  It's not just the piercing issue--it's not even the piercing that's in question. It's the constant questioning My judgement and decisions. I want to be trusted in the choices I make for him, and the decisions I make for us. So why the fight?

I've been giving this much thought, as the boy has been restricted from contacting Me for several days because of the last conversation evolving into nastiness and sarcasm that I have no tolerance for. Anyhow- I am wondering if the boy is scared about moving forward. Or if the boy is unsure about the relationship with Me. I am wondering if it doesn't come down to him wanting out and too scared to voice it. I don't know....

Can anyone help Me understand? Has anyone else had this type of submissive in their life, that constantly questioned whether or not the decisions/choices were the right ones? If the relationship continues, how do I get past the constant questioning? How do I make the boy understand that the choices/decisions I have made are good enough for Me, so they should be good enough for him?

Thanks for any input....

Lady Angel


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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 4:48:42 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		We've had servants like this in our household. The one thing that worked for us was sitting down with the servant and reminding him or her about what he or she agreed to when s/he came (we do have a contract, which helps). Once we've gotten there, we give hir an opportunity to decide whether or not s/he is still willing to hold to that agreement, and to accept that the things that s/he has responsibility to ask about will be clear, and that questions phrased in such a way that they are -clearly- to get information, rather than to question the decision are welcome -- but if s/he cannot adapt to recognizing where the final decision lies, then perhaps s/he is not in a position to yield hirself to a D/s relationship.

This is just what has worked for us. Others may have more useful advice yet to come.

Da'Avatar ZWD


www.klashaan.org

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 4:51:28 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		I think the answer is obvious. He hasnt given over his authority to you, for whatever reason, whether he doesnt trust you yet, or he really hasnt come to terms with what a submissive actually is, or he is just playing at being submissive and really has no capability to do so.

To state the obvious again, I think you need to have a sit down talk with him and really assess whether he is what you want or even capable of being what you want. The conversation might be enlightening for him too.

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 4:56:05 PM   
JessieMe


Posts: 510
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline 		You have an opportunity to break him to your will or let him go. The thing you have to ask yourself is.. how many times will you allow him to challenge you? I went through this myself recently when I released my last submissive. He also "topped from the bottom" and forget who was in control. It happened exactly twice. The first time he was warned. The second he was let go.

What was the reason he came to you? What are the boundaries of the relationship you have? And where do you see it going? Is he growing in submission or are you growing in frustration? I am not an advocate of the "collar of the month club" by any means. But I absolutely without equivocation advocate people following through on what they bond themselves to. If he cannot.. you need to reevaluate. If he just doesnt want to.. you need to reevaluate. If he can and is trying, then you need to simply walk away from the discussion and let him simmer until he can figure it out for himself. You have told him. If the issue is not safety or health, then that should be the end of it.

jessie

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 5:07:27 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		If he agreed to getting these piercings when you hooked up and is backing out now, well perhaps this needs to be renegotiated? It sounds to me (from a sub perspective) that he is afraid of being pierced. It is a soft limit of my own so I understand how he feels.

I am of the opinion that subs/slaves are human and have fears of body modification that any other rational person would have. It is a huge step. If it is something that you have to have a sub do, well perhaps you should release someone that doesn't want to do it? It would have been ideal if he had been upfront from the begininng with you, and then you could have decided whether to take him on in the first place.

I am not a submissive that likes limits pushed, I will push them myself if my dominant desires me to loosen my soft limits. I would not like being pushed into something like body modification, although it is only a soft limit and not a hard one. It would frighten me. Some doms do not like being questioned ever. Some do not feel threatened by a submissive questioning them, but understand it eases fears and puts us at ease to be able to ask questions in a safe environment. You have to decide whether you can tolerate a questioning sub, because in my experience people with a questioning streak do not stop doing it. It is almost like a compulsion for some of us (myself included), especially when we seek to understand, come to terms with something.

Good luck

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 5:12:43 PM   
ladyangel


Posts: 58
Joined: 1/27/2004
Status: offline 		So far, it is mainly the piercing that always causes the rift. So, Im inclinced to believe that yes, he is fearful of it, even tho he agreed to it initially. But, because there are questions regarding many of the choices/decisions I make, I have to wonder if it's not JUST the piercing.

I don't know, but I will continue to read the responses. Thank you so much for your input, L/ladies. It is already giving Me some perspective.

Lady Angel

< Message edited by ladyangel -- 6/13/2006 5:13:07 PM >

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 5:22:17 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ladyangel

So far, it is mainly the piercing that always causes the rift. So, Im inclinced to believe that yes, he is fearful of it, even tho he agreed to it initially. But, because there are questions regarding many of the choices/decisions I make, I have to wonder if it's not JUST the piercing.

I don't know, but I will continue to read the responses. Thank you so much for your input, L/ladies. It is already giving Me some perspective.

Lady Angel


My former dom wanted me to be in a threesome with him and an old friend of his. I had tentively agreed to it, and changed my mind. I was not collared yet. It did teach me not to agree to things unless I was 100 percent sure I could do it. Some things sound romantic in the beginning and then the reality hits of what it really means to do it. I know when I first read The Story of O  I was enamored with the idea of being branded...lol. I probably would be very afraid if someone I was seeing said.. "OK Julia, I made an appointment for your branding today".

Perhaps there is a way he could be involved in the planning of the first piercing? He could make calls, interview people that do the work, research side effects of piercings? Perhaps you could have him read up and write a report on different types of piercings as disclipline for his actions of late? It might help you determine the root of his fears so you can help him overcome them? It might help connect you both while at the same time disciplining him? Just a thought.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 5:25:48 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline 		Communicate open and honestly, lay all your cards on the table, make your wishes very clear and also that you are in charge. If a piercing or a tattoo is a mandatory part of your relation with your subs/slaves then that is the bottom line unless of course you want to make an exception for this individual.
 
When all is said if he is still in disagreement, stick to your rules and dismiss him. If you waiver back and forth you will never get full cooperation from him for he will sense your unstableness and take advantage of topping you from the bottom.
 
*Brightspot

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 5:26:01 PM   
angelface183


Posts: 688
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Perhaps there is a way he could be involved in the planning of the first piercing? He could make calls, interview people that do the work, research side effects of piercings? Perhaps you could have him read up and write a report on different types of piercings as disclipline for his actions of late? It might help you determine the root of his fears so you can help him overcome them? It might help connect you both while at the same time disciplining him? Just a thought.


What a great idea!  As always Julia, stellar advice!

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 5:26:12 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing

We've had servants like this in our household. The one thing that worked for us was sitting down with the servant and reminding him or her about what he or she agreed to when s/he came (we do have a contract, which helps). Once we've gotten there, we give hir an opportunity to decide whether or not s/he is still willing to hold to that agreement, and to accept that the things that s/he has responsibility to ask about will be clear, and that questions phrased in such a way that they are -clearly- to get information, rather than to question the decision are welcome -- but if s/he cannot adapt to recognizing where the final decision lies, then perhaps s/he is not in a position to yield hirself to a D/s relationship.

This is just what has worked for us. Others may have more useful advice yet to come.

Da'Avatar ZWD


www.klashaan.org


I think this is one of the plusses of having a written contract -- you can refer back to it time and again.

Sit him down, show him the contract, and say "You have one more chance".

Frankly if he had a problem with piercings he should have been talking to you about it all along.

Now I can relate to having something valued questioned or fall apart.

Fox has always had a collar but as he deals more with his own abusive childhood the collar becomes less and less comfortable for him. He has told me and this is one of the issues we've been working on together in therapy now for half a year. He was also with me for six years when this became an issue so we have time built into things.

He does not question my desire for the collar he only has great discomfort with it when wearing it for more than a few hours. (No, its not tight, I can get two of my fists between him and it)

I've had to figure out what is important to me in this matter. His trying to wear it a few hours every day is an important validation of my desires. But this is not a daily symbol that I want. Thus we are discussing a ring or a piercing ourselves.

If this had been early on in the relationship, it would have ended. Period.

Sorry, I've gotten off track here.

If you don't have a written contract, you may be screwed and faced with dismissing him. I think keeping him on will be on continuous series of these sorts of undermining of your authority. And that is, in my opinion, what he is doing every time he questios your decisions.

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 5:26:30 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Well what did he say when you asked him why he was resisting?

I mean you're cutting off the only source of information and solution to your problem- him.

Only by communicating with him directly, figuring out the motivation for his reluctance , can you begin to move forward together.  Perhaps he is not ready for it- would you want to make him get this symbol of commitment when, within himself, he isn't ready to take that step?

Your problem isn't his questions- it's the lack of security you have together, and you're punishing the sympton, not the disease. 

Go talk to him and work it out together. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 5:28:22 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		I have a piercing story for you ladyangel:

Master knew one of my hard limits was having my nipples pierced. I'm fearful of any breast kinda play, the feeling is so strong that I dont really get any enjoyment out of it. (well.......thats kinda changed now a bit..but back when this experience happened it was true.)

So anyways, we were away on our honeymoon actually, we walked past a piercing shop and I casually ask him "Master can I have my navel pierced?" He responds with " Let's go in and have a look." We go in, check out the shop, look at jewelry, Im getting very excited thinking he is going to get my navel pierced. Finally he says " Ok, you can get pierced" I jump for joy. He continues "You're having your nipples pierced" I can't describe to you how I felt in that moment.I was gutted, terrified, I had a million thoughts swimmming around in my head, none of them good. Master books me in for a couple of hours time. We leave the shop and go to a cafe. I don't know what to say, or how to act, or what to do. I'm in complete shock and terror. Master just keeps a casual conversation going. I keep looking at the time. Finally we walk back to the shop, I dont know how I walked I was shaking so much. Everything around me seemed surreal. I sat down, pulled my top off. Master stands behind me and puts his hands on my shoulders. A few minutes later I'm pierced. A whole new set of thoughts and feelings came rushing into me, I was flying. I think I cried I was so incredily happy. To this day, I think my nipple rings are more like my collar..they really represented to me...my submission and slavery to Master, through action.

Anyways, thats my piercing story..I mentioned it cuz thats where I was coming from when I said those things before. Even if he is scared, or for whatever reason he is trying to take control of this situation, what it amounts to to me is an inability to submit to your authority..which could be a relationship problem that needs addressing...and it is a refelction on his submission to you.

_____________________________

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Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 5:31:52 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali
Anyways, thats my piercing story..I mentioned it cuz thats where I was coming from when I said those things before. Even if he is scared, or for whatever reason he is trying to take control of this situation, what it amounts to to me is an inability to submit to your authority..which could be a relationship problem that needs addressing...and it is a refelction on his submission to you.

On the other hand- many doms turn this around on the sub and say "Because you can't be poly with me, you aren't really submitting to me and want to control me."

Just because a person is not capable of doing a particular act, or be in a particular situation and remain true to themselves does not make them less submissive or somehow not accepting of the person's authority. It's more complicated than "just trust the dom."

I think your story is an excellent one- but I've seen enough doms do the same SORT of thing in very manipulative and unhealthy ways.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 5:40:44 PM   
Viper001


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/8/2005
From: SF, California
Status: offline 		disclaimer: with such a broad query, and only one side of the situation, my response might not be accurate, valid, or applicable to your situation.

It's one thing to ask questions for clarification and/or education. Quite another to constantly question decisions out of a contrary nature.
I did have such a submissive in service at one time. I sometimes thought this person would question, and argue with, a signpost. Several months later, she was asked a simple question: do you trust that i will never intentionally make a decision which will have a negative impact on your health and/or welfare?

She is now history. Instead, I've spent the last 8 years with a girl who asks *intelligent* questions and uses the feedback to increase her value as a slave, and improve our relationship via mutual understanding/communication.

Some people thrive in a "contrary" relationship. Others thrive in more cooperative situations.
Some submissives desire a heavy-handed dominant and will constantly test their boundaries and the dominant's patience. Some dominants enjoy this type of dynamic. You strike me as someone who does not. Finding a compatible partner is always difficult, immho. Could this simply be a mismatch?

Regardless, perhaps the only applicable questions are - how much longer will you tolerate this behaviour? and what will you do when you've had enough?



Warmest regards,
Viper_001
<dons his asbestos vest and waits for the flames>




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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 5:41:27 PM   
ladyangel


Posts: 58
Joined: 1/27/2004
Status: offline 		As I think about this, I can't sway on the piercing issue. It's an important aspect of the relationship I have with someone who claims to be My slave.

It's the undermining, the questioning My choices, the not trusting My judgement, etc......
If he will question Me about something that isn't even going to happen for months to come, what will he question Me about?

Lady Angel

edited for typos..lol


< Message edited by ladyangel -- 6/13/2006 5:50:49 PM >

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you say I'm a Bitch likes it's a BAD thing.
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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 6:01:51 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ladyangel

As I think about this, I can't sway on the piercing issue. It's an important aspect of the relationship I have with someone who claims to be My slave.

It's the undermining, the questioning My choices, the not trusting My judgement, etc......
If he will question Me about something that isn't even going to happen for months to come, what will he question Me about?

Lady Angel

edited for typos..lol



That line tells me that he is very fearful of being pierced. If you can't empathize with him and your commands are more important than his fears... perhaps he is ill-suited to you. He will probably question you about many things because trust and respect are earned with shared experiences... it sounds as though you expect him to trust you without shared experiences. It sounds as though this submissive is new to your home or not even living with you yet.

I would not have a dominant that thought he was above questioning. I am an intelligent human being and questioning does not make me disrespectful, it makes me a thinking person. If you find unquestioning submissives to be important, perhaps you will find them. If you want relationships with other adult human beings capable of thinking for themselves.. well questioning comes with the territory. I think that it is a priority thing, is it more important someone scar themselves for life on your say-so and leave themselves open for diseases like hepatitis, or that you form a lasting relationship where your judgment is rarely questioned because over time you proved it could be trusted. The choice is both of yours and your submissives.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/13/2006 6:03:01 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 6:27:35 PM   
ladyangel


Posts: 58
Joined: 1/27/2004
Status: offline 		Questions from a thinking slave are entirely different than questions from a slave that is not trusting of My choices or decisions. I fully agree with what you say, julia. I DO want and need a thinking slave---but I also need a trusting slave. I also need a slave that isn't sarcastic, questioning, and, often times, quite mouthy and disrespectful.

As for the risks involved, yes, I am fully aware and, as I said--have done the research and am knowledgeable enough to know what to look for, expect, etc. Now, as for the fear...I can't speak on that based on the number of tattoos and piercings I have, and have had. I also agree with the fact that it is a big step to take---which is why I made it known at the onset of the relationship- and have also stated it wouldn't happen for quite some time. I realize the seriousness of what I insist the slave does, and don't take it lighthearted. Again, it's NOT the issue of the piercing, it's the discussions that have taken place and the outcome of the conversations that have Me at odds. NOT the actual piercing....I want to get through the communication issues, THEN work on the piercing issues---if that's the case.

And I agree with everyone saying I need to talk with him, and I will...once the imposed ban is done. I won't go back on that punishment I set.

Lady Angel


_____________________________

you say I'm a Bitch likes it's a BAD thing.
"Pain is a uniquely personal experience"

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 6:49:34 PM   
sweetnurseBBW


Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		the only thing i can say is reminding  him of his position and why he is there.If he agreed to these before hand than he can either do it or hit the road. sounds like he is topping from the bottom

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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 7:09:17 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		He does not trust you this is not a great time to enforce something like body modifications on him, after all piercings and tattoos are such rights of passage and such a primal powerful symbol of submission.
 
I like what folks said about the contract and I would add to it:
 
What are the goals of his submission?
What does he hope to achieve by taking this path?
Why does he desire a dominant?
And where are the two of you going?
 
I think it is one option to force his hand and say "this is what you signed up for, deal with it".
 
And it is another option to say, hey what happened?, have your goals shifted? where do you see this going if neither of us are trusting each other? How can we become realigned in our future plans?...



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RE: subs/slaves and the whys - 6/13/2006 7:20:03 PM   
ownedschiava


Posts: 1
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline 		Bottom Line, He is slave/sub. and needs to accept that. or find a new home or Master/ Mistress. When my slave questions her Master inappropriatly she is forbidden to speak.

(in reply to ladyangel)
Profile   Post #: 20
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