RE: subs/slaves and the whys

RE: subs/slaves and the whys (Full Version)

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LuckyAlbatross -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 7:10:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ladyangel I should've realized that with such an "extreme" act of submission, some readers would concentrate on the act, instead of what I'm really asking about. I should've found a different example so it would'nt distract from the real question. Lady Angel Here's the thing- you're two months into what you expect to be a LIFELONG relationship. Do you really think either of you are near secure where you will be in a year? Two years? You have to decide- is this relationship, in the long term, worth the training and effort that I will have to work with? He also has to decide that. But really, the only way this has any chance of working is to discuss it together and work on the PROBLEM- the lack of security and communication, not the SYMPTOM- the constant questions.

ladyangel -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 7:11:23 AM)
Exactly. So far, I believe Ms. White understands where I'm coming from. Questions for understanding of some things, yes. Questions that are seen as resistance, challenging, topping form the bottom, whatever the case may be. Are not even necessary. Lady Angel

ladyangel -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 7:13:10 AM)
Thank you so much, LA. I always look forward to your posts on the boards. Thought out and intelligent answers. I appreciate your input. I believe you have also hit the nail on the head, and will definitely be taking that with Me. Lady Angel

WhiteRadiance -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 8:13:25 AM)
I may be getting a bit off topic here but thought I would share this.. I am not a huge fan of body modification, and have never suggested any permanent marks. However, one day I jokingly told my sub, (who has VERY sensitive nipples) that I was going to pierce them. He told me very quickly that if it would please me, he would do it. It made me immensely happy to know he would subject himself to a piercing to please me. Of course, we have been together for a few years now. (In the future, I may decide to mark him but he is perfect just like he is.) In any case, when it comes to something that can be life-changing, I would much rather it be something I SUGGEST and we discuss, than an order. I want my subs to beg for, want, and need what I give them.. If they do not WANT my mark, (collar, chastity device, etc) I will not force it on them. (I do, however, expect them to take out the damn trash when I tell them to!) wink ~ Staci

iliv2servher -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 12:28:44 PM)
It often takes a while for a submissive or slave to accept the reality of what he or she is seeking, rather than the fantasy that all of us have. If you believe that this person is worthy of taking your time, effort and patience to go to where you want him to go, then ease him into it gently. But you really have to use your intuition on this one.

Arpig -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 12:38:24 PM)
If you DO negotiate, you will HAVE to negotiate...either he acxepts your decision or not...its up to you.

LadiesBladewing -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 6:32:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MstrFury I look at this not as an issue of his questioning...but of his showing you...he sees a weakness in you....one very obvious to me by the way you've presented your question....lack of strength to direct and guide.... I say this only because you say...you're NOT SURE.... I may be completely off on this...but as presented...and read and reread before commenting....this is what I see.....but as this is only my opinion.....I truly wish you the best as you're not testing him...he's testing you.....others may see something quite different.... pulling my cloak around me and stepping back into the shadows I can see your point, here, MstrFury, but I do have to say that most individuals, dominant or otherwise, come across situations where they've been trying what they know for so long that they're not sure if it's them or the situation that isn't working -- whether they should try a new tack, or just hold their ground and wait to see where things go. I think this is an exceptional place to ask the questions, in a forum where there -are- so many styles of other dominant individuals from which to get advice. Even powerful, self-assured dominant individuals ask questions when they aren't sure -- or, if they don't, I'm afraid that I would wonder about their sense of security. One of the most self-assured people I know -- the man who taught me -everything- that I love and respect about this life, had no problem asking if he was uncertain... and it made me respect him all the more, for acknowledging what he -didn't- know, to assure that the best possible outcome happened all the way round. In the end, he might ask advice, but -he- made the decisions. On both counts, he was a man to be respected. Da'Avatar ZWD www.klashaan.org

LadiesBladewing -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 6:40:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig If you DO negotiate, you will HAVE to negotiate...either he acxepts your decision or not...its up to you. I have to disagree, here, Arpig. In this situation, I doubt that I would negotiate, only because it seems to me that this person may not really be committed to a life of service. However, in a situation with a -good- servant for whom a given situation turned out to be more than he or she could manage, I might self-negotiate... decide what -my- absolute limit was, and then determine whether or not I could adjust my expectation to suit a servant who was truly -trying- to serve, but came up against a situation that brought my command and their capacity into a deadlock. Part of skilled mastery, I think, is knowing how to use your tools properly, and hone them carefully, so that they serve for a long time, rather than using the tool for whatever we please, whether or not it will be good for the tool. As an example. I am a trained chef. I have a pair of scissors that has -never- been used for anything but food. There are many times when I was unable to find a pair of scissors for general use around the house, and I had to decide whether I was going to spend more time hunting, or use my chef's scissors to cut the envelope, box, tape, or whatever. I thought about what I purchased them for, and what I expected from the shears, and did not want to risk damaging the shears by dulling them on some common item. Certainly, they were scissors, and using them one time inappropriately would probably not have damaged them -- but when they're used inappropriately once, especially if it doesn't damage them, it makes it easier to make a concession later. I remember the look on the Master Chef's face who trained me when a tool was misused, and I went back to hunting for the common scissors. I treat my servant property the same way. Da'Avatar ZWD www.klashaan.org

WhiteRadiance -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 7:03:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig If you DO negotiate, you will HAVE to negotiate...either he acxepts your decision or not...its up to you. I have to disagree, here, Arpig. In this situation, I doubt that I would negotiate, only because it seems to me that this person may not really be committed to a life of service. However, in a situation with a -good- servant for whom a given situation turned out to be more than he or she could manage, I might self-negotiate... decide what -my- absolute limit was, and then determine whether or not I could adjust my expectation to suit a servant who was truly -trying- to serve, but came up against a situation that brought my command and their capacity into a deadlock. Part of skilled mastery, I think, is knowing how to use your tools properly, and hone them carefully, so that they serve for a long time, rather than using the tool for whatever we please, whether or not it will be good for the tool. As an example. I am a trained chef. I have a pair of scissors that has -never- been used for anything but food. There are many times when I was unable to find a pair of scissors for general use around the house, and I had to decide whether I was going to spend more time hunting, or use my chef's scissors to cut the envelope, box, tape, or whatever. I thought about what I purchased them for, and what I expected from the shears, and did not want to risk damaging the shears by dulling them on some common item. Certainly, they were scissors, and using them one time inappropriately would probably not have damaged them -- but when they're used inappropriately once, especially if it doesn't damage them, it makes it easier to make a concession later. I remember the look on the Master Chef's face who trained me when a tool was misused, and I went back to hunting for the common scissors. I treat my servant property the same way. Da'Avatar ZWD www.klashaan.org LadiesBladewing~ I love the way you think. And you used an excellent analogy. Use him for what he is best suited for. You are a very wise Dominant. Why clash wills? I have concluded that few people are perfect.. (in fact, I am the only one I know of) lol.. But SO MANY are worth the effort, care, time, worry,etc.. because they are who they are. (even if they are not as perfect as I AM.) When I care about someone it is not likely I will cut them out of my life unless they are destructive to themselves or others. A sub is no different. Use him for what he is suited for.. accept his strengths and limitations. Life is good and love is what makes it that way.. I am having a fuzzy dominant moment.. forgive me.... ~ Staci oh yeah, btw.. I was being sarcastic about being perfect. But the rest of the post was sincere.

enigmabrat -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 7:18:30 PM)
I have been in the same place as your slave. I got involved with a Dom that wanted me to get my nipples pearsed... I knew I was terrafied of being pearsed like that but never told him I thought that I could go through with it because while tattos are a hard limit for me pearsing (because it can be removed) is not. Because of my fear I put of the pearsings again and again each time frustrateing the Dom further and further. In the end we split (not for this reason though) and i was very glad I hadnt put myself through the pain of the pearsings for him (he turned out to be a naty jerk) He may just be feeling scared and insecure about the idea and afraid to say that to you because he doesnt want to seem week to you. He also may be testing you to see how forcefull you can be with him.. he may just want you to say "this is what the pearsing is and this is were we are doing it and thats that" some subs crave that kind of Domanence The best thing to do is talk to him OUTSIDE the dom sub roles person to person on an equal compasity type things.. let him know exactly how you feel and find out exactly how he feels... if it is simply fear you need to reasure him make sure he knows you would never hurt him or ask him to do something he wasnt really willing to do. If he is testing you you need to let him know the testing stops now and you will not stand for the lack of trust and respect he has been showing the main thing would be is he is willing to get the pearsing if he is he has to let you do all the desition makeing and that his desitions and choises stop at weather or not he is willing to be pearsed if he is willing to be pearsed then any desitions after that are yours as the Domanent to make... I really hope that made sence

slavejali -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 7:22:44 PM)
The reason why we get into these type of relationships is to give our authority over to another person or because we want to assume authority over another person. Thats what rocks our world. If we dont want to do that, there are numerous other types of relationships we could enter into. Personally I dont think its fair for a submissive to enter into a relationship, knowing the dominants preferences, then expect them to arrange their authority around specific areas the submissive allows. Thats well and good for casual relationships, negotiation should be ongoing on those cases..but for permanent type situations, I think the dominant should be incredibly specific about whats expected in the relationship and if the submissive doesnt like it, cant do it etc, they should be honest with themselves and their potential dominant about it...then just find someone else...BEFORE....emotional attachments are formed...which doesnt help this situation at all...but the topic got me thinking about it. Yeah, lots of us want a lovely person for a partner, and thats all fantastic..but we choosing to enter into a D/s dynamic..so stuff relative to D/s is really important..otherwise people would just end up like the ones who post in here talking about how much they want to participate in D/s but their partner isnt interested.

ladyangel -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 7:28:10 PM)
I LOVE the way both of you Ladies think, Ms. White and LadiesBladeWing. I have taken a lot of what has been said and decided to use the information and knowledge and try to salvage the relationship with the boy. I DO love him....and I KNOW he feels the same. Just a lot of fear, and unknowing on his part. But, as everyone has said, this is a VERY young relationship. However, how could I leave him, or dessert him when he needs Me the most? Thank you again, All the posters. I believe I am going to rethink My approach with the boy and have a nother go at it. LOL Lady Angel

ladyangel -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 7:38:30 PM)
Thank you too, jali. you've actualy spoken what I have been trying to form a thought around. The fact that this is the entire REASON I search for the type of relationships I search for. To have control given to Me, by another person who wants to give that control over. What good is it if I have to keep changing the way I control a situation, or My values or ideas of Dominance and submission? Lady Angel

slavejali -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 7:41:02 PM)
Exactly..and now I will point everyone to the "topping from the bottom" thread grin

LadyElectra1 -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 8:08:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali I think the answer is obvious. He hasnt given over his authority to you, for whatever reason, whether he doesnt trust you yet, or he really hasnt come to terms with what a submissive actually is, or he is just playing at being submissive and really has no capability to do so. To state the obvious again, I think you need to have a sit down talk with him and really assess whether he is what you want or even capable of being what you want. The conversation might be enlightening for him too. I would have to agree. If I were You I would not put up with him and all the questions. Was he new to the lifestyle when you got him? Does he understand what it is to be a sub? Good luck with that one.

WhiteRadiance -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 8:12:25 PM)
Jali- I respect your opinion but feel (for some reason) that you have evolved, learned, grown, been taught..over years(?) Everyone has their own pace.. I also feel that females embrace the submissive role easier and more readily than males. Just my opinion.. in any case, love to all, and I wish the best of luck to the Lady. :) quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali Exactly..and now I will point everyone to the "topping from the bottom" thread grin

slavejali -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 8:23:26 PM)
Yes thats true WhiteRadiance, I would participate in things now that years ago, I would have cringed out (well cringing while being secretly desiring it perhaps). I just feel, from what ladyangel has expressed to us, she was quite specific about her wants from the beginning..and its not just the piercing issue...it seems he questions her a lot...and I think its perfectly okay for a dominant not to like or want that... Also I think my actual ability to submit has increased over the years, thats true as well...but even saying that...at any time..I was perfect for the partner I was with at the time..and didnt have to work at being something I wasnt...so (trying to work out how to express this).....so....I fulfilled my partners expectations of me at the time.....just think its unfair that this boy is putting lady angel through the hoops like this...thats all.

Submotive -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 9:03:23 PM)
quote: Now, I have made My opinion on this subject known, several times. So why am I continuously faced with "why" this and "why does it have to be done like this?". It's not just the piercing issue--it's not even the piercing that's in question. It's the constant questioning My judgement and decisions. I want to be trusted in the choices I make for him, and the decisions I make for us. So why the fight? I've been giving this much thought, as the boy has been restricted from contacting Me for several days because of the last conversation evolving into nastiness and sarcasm that I have no tolerance for. Anyhow- I am wondering if the boy is scared about moving forward. Or if the boy is unsure about the relationship with Me. I am wondering if it doesn't come down to him wanting out and too scared to voice it. I don't know.... Can anyone help Me understand? Has anyone else had this type of submissive in their life, that constantly questioned whether or not the decisions/choices were the right ones? If the relationship continues, how do I get past the constant questioning? How do I make the boy understand that the choices/decisions I have made are good enough for Me, so they should be good enough for him? Hello ladyangel, i sincerely hope You find this helpful. i don't know how long You and Your boy have been involved. Speaking from a slave perspective i too gave Master a terrible time for months - questioning, not understanding etc. Yes i was scared. After having taken care of myself and been on my own all my life, it's not an easy thing to just trust Another's judgement and believe that He has not only His own but my best interests at heart as well. Finally, i think i am beginning to feel this. But it takes time. If You believe Your boy is worth the "breaking in" phase, then perhaps Your patience with Him will eventually prove worthwhile. Discussing his need to question You all the time may also prove beneficial. Respectfully, submotive

MstrFury -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 9:20:20 PM)
I agree with you on the issue of asking questions when it seems you've done all you can in a situation....I ask many questions and I've been doing this since the earth was dust....my response was of the nature...do you know your own sense of purpose....to take another and profess to be what they need....well to me that means you have a clear direction....to begin with confusion and uncertainty....to not forsee in the smaller details...the much larger picture....well let's just say...I'd be pushing and testing and probably doing a heck of a lot more...to get that someone to rein me in by the short hairs and simply say....I've taken you as I found you...we've made progress...but this is the direction we go....( I've also become a very firm believer....time is key...) no reason to rush something that should in most best cases...last a lifetime....and in worst cases...show flaws like a blind man driving on the freeway.... pulling my cloak around me and stepping back into the shadows...

ownedgirlie -> RE: subs/slaves and the whys (6/14/2006 11:59:46 PM)
(Fast Reply) I browsed through this thread and I have to say, the number of questions I asked my Master at 2 months into our relationship would have made a novice Dom's head spin. Do people not see that submissives, particularly if they are new to their submission (if his experience was stated in the thread, I missed it), want so badly to please, to prove to their Dom AND to themselves that they are what they think they are, that they will agree to all sorts of things they think they can do...only to find in reality they simply are not ready yet?? If in 2 months you are discussing a piercing - whether now, in the future, or whatever - what other things are freaking him out that he is apparently not allowed to ask about? After knowing my Master 4 months, being owned for 2, he discussed marking me by tattoo. I had never in my life fathomed getting a tattoo. But I knew how much he would like one on me. I felt special because he wanted it. I agreed, "Sure Master, thank you Master, that would be wonderful Master" and inside I thought, "CRAP!!!" Later I told him I was scared to death of it. We spoke on it awhile...he let the subject rest a few months. I was relieved. I had time to digest it, without having to be reminded of it all the time. When he decided (about 6 months after that) it was time, I was tasked with finding a place to do it, and bringing his design to artists to "make it look good." I was so hesitant at first. I had all sorts of excuses why I couldn't. But what it really boiled down to was my fear. A tattoo is a lifetime mark in my book. In less than a year, did I really trust him to want me "forever?" This was difficult to come to terms with, but with his help I did, and actually ended up begging him to receive it when I feared he had changed his mind in frustration. LA is right - trust and security are the issues here. In two months, I can't see anyone giving over completely without fears. I'm surprised at how many are hardlined about the questions, to be honest. Learning to trust takes time. If he is being sent away without the ability to contact, that doesn't seem like solving the problem to me. It certainly doesn't do anything to answer his insecurity issues in the relationship. Especially since it is so new. Once when Master asked me what punishment I thought I deserved for arguing with him about something, I said he should send me away from him for a week. He said banning me from him would do nothing to accomplish his goal of drawing me nearer to him. I hope this situation is worked out - however it is worked out - sooner, rather than later. Best of luck.

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