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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/14/2012 12:42:28 PM   
Lucifyre


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

But Neil Gaiman said that he is not your bitch: he's under no obligation to finish the series he's been working on for over a decade before he croaks, after all...




which would just go to prove the point that he went for the cash grab. I don't believe for a second the statement about him already knowing the end before he started writing. If that were true then IMO he would have finished them already whitout all the unneccessary tripe splattered throughout the books. AND He wouldn't have gone off and written much of anything else until it was finished. I think he may have had an idea of which direction he wanted to go but he has wandered off in way too many directions and not brought them back together closely enough to make any sense to the rest of the story. Too many side stories IMO.
As for my earlier comment about predictable Kana, I had 1 thing in mind whe I typed that though I'll not share it here because I'd like to not spoil other people's opinions about where the storyline is headed. He may already know who it is he wants to end up on the throne when it's all said and done but I don't think he has an incling of a clue how to get them there just yet. Danaerys for instance...that's dragging on just way too fucking long, he needs to give her some real success or kill her off and be done with her (though I do believe she is one of two of *the* main characters so killing her off isn't likely)
And I don't have an answer to most of the other questions. I just didn't read into those points that deeply. Some of them IMO aren't even relevant to the main storyline, just sideline distractions to keep you hooked. Just my opinion fwiw :)

Can't continue without breaking my not wanting to share here LOL.
Maybe I'll pick Dance up again today and finish it out. Like I said...I only got a little over halfway through it before it bored me to tears.

Lucifyre

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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/14/2012 12:46:41 PM   
Lucifyre


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Joined: 3/27/2012
Status: offline 		Oh, and before anyone goes on the *well why you botherin* tangent...I DO love the story. I am in bitter mode however because it isn't finished and I am pretty annoyed at GRRM for getting me hooked on something I will probably never see the end of. Almost like having great sex with the constant promise of a mind blowing orgasm...cuz you KNOW it's gonna happen...only to get interrputed by the phone right at the point you're about to climax and having your nut fizzle completely. The advantage to that versus the fucking books though is you can always try again for another cum tomorrow!

Lucifyre

< Message edited by Lucifyre -- 10/14/2012 12:50:25 PM >

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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/14/2012 1:03:52 PM   
Kana


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quote:

which would just go to prove the point that he went for the cash grab. I don't believe for a second the statement about him already knowing the end before he started writing. If that were true then IMO he would have finished them already whitout all the unneccessary tripe splattered throughout the books. AND He wouldn't have gone off and written much of anything else until it was finished. I think he may have had an idea of which direction he wanted to go but he has wandered off in way too many directions and not brought them back together closely enough to make any sense to the rest of the story. Too many side stories IMO.
As for my earlier comment about predictable Kana, I had 1 thing in mind whe I typed that though I'll not share it here because I'd like to not spoil other people's opinions about where the storyline is headed.

Oh, I believe him. I just think he got lost in too many story lines. It's also true that he originally intended to just have a 6 year gap between SoS and the next book, but realized that he needed to fill in the gap-that the jump would be too big and would challenge the suspension of disbelief. Plus, if you read the books real close, especially the prophecies and foreshadowing (Which is brilliant BTW), he's stayed pretty much on track with his original vision since day 1.
You should really check out this site-the people on these forums have gone waaaaaaaaaay deep into the books, maybe too deep. They are kinda OCD fanatical about things.
As for your thoughts, send me a PM, let me know your ideas. I'd love to hear em. Right now, there's a big part of my that thinks SweetRobin may end up on the throne (Why else keep him around and alive this long?). Martin is just twisted enough to pull something like that off and laugh at all of us as we howl in rage.
As for owing the public something-hell yes he does. I can understand taking a break. I even understand that he got writers block and couldn't figure his way past the Meerenese knot. But taking ten years to write two books is ridiculous, especially seeing how he's never met a convention he doesn't like and won't attend. There's an implication when one starts a series that ones going to do their best to finish it and I think Martin has massively failed there.

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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/14/2012 7:54:58 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lilmissdefiant

Anybody else here love this show?

if you do were you pissed that they killed off Drogo (the hottest guy in it) via an infection and not in a battle, the way a true warrior should go out?


Most of the warriors in South American died from infections and the same was true of the American Indians. Such was also the premiss of WAR of the WORLDS.

That plot line is all about Daenerys emerging as the leader of her people, and as such, Drogo died. It was shocking b/c he seemed almighty.

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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/14/2012 9:59:26 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

I don't like Tad Williams style or plotting. And it's not that I haven't tried. I own all three of the books and despite repeated attempts can't get into em at all.


Odd. I found the style and character bits to be excellent there. Far more enjoyable (to me) than Amber.

Have you tried the first book of Otherland for comparison, or one of the short stories (e.g. Caliban's Hour)?

quote:

I feel the same way bout Terry Goodkind


Yeah, that man has issues. I feel like it could've been an interesting first series from the author if 9/11 hadn't happened. He just went off in an entirely different style and direction after that. Granted, there is a lot I don't like in the series, but when I read them, my pace was from 1Kwpm to over 3Kwpm, so the stuff I didn't like just ended up being read through by sacrificing retention and comprehension for higher speed, like a fast forward. Also, bear in mind that I'm living in a socialist country, so absurd thinking of the people in The Faith of the Fallen was perfectly familiar to me. I figure that might seem odd otherwise.

Course, the Mord'Sith would look good on screen, though, at least with HBO doing it.

quote:

I'm somewhat with you on the WoT (At least the Jordan ones-I can't abide the Sanderson versions). Been following those suckers since Day 1 also.


Yeah, it's on my top ten. Spent way too much time digging into it.

quote:

I love Mat Cauthon, think he's one of the great characters in fantasy history, but much of the non-Mat dialogue is pretty wooden and flat. It would be a tough series to turn into flat screen stuff. Whereas Martin was an ex TV guy and I've always felt he wrote GoT with at least 1/2 an eye towards doing a screenplay


The dialogue would need a bit of touching up to really work on TV, yes.

Not sure I have a favorite character there, but Elan Morin Tedronai would be a strong candidate. Takes a rather out of the box guy to realize you're the proverbial antichrist and just go with it. Mat is nice, but not my favorite by far.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/15/2012 4:55:39 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucifyre
which would just go to prove the point that he went for the cash grab. I don't believe for a second the statement about him already knowing the end before he started writing. If that were true then IMO he would have finished them already whitout all the unneccessary tripe splattered throughout the books. AND He wouldn't have gone off and written much of anything else until it was finished. I think he may have had an idea of which direction he wanted to go but he has wandered off in way too many directions and not brought them back together closely enough to make any sense to the rest of the story. Too many side stories IMO.

It's not inconceivable that he did have a storyline with an end in mind when he started but (as you say) he's wandered so far from that with various diversions and distractions since publishing the first couple of books that the end he had planned will no longer work.
The fact that he's too far up himself to admit that he's written himself into a corner and is no longer able to finish the series is completely reprehensible conduct for a professional writer, and suggests an obnoxious corrolary to Gaiman's statement: Martin may not be your bitch, but he regards you (and anybody else who's ever bought a GOT book) as his bitch.
Franbkly, I find that demeanour offensive enough that it's made me think a lot less of Fevre Dream and Wildcards as well as GOT...

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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/15/2012 5:08:37 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

I was gonna say Elric (Probably my favorite series as a kid), but just having reread a bunch of Moorcock (Hawkmoon, Elric, John Daker) I can't really suggest him after busting on Williams because Moorcock's writing is far worse. It's basically pulp. And you have no idea how much that hurts to say but it's true.
GRRM's big problem is that he has written one of the few, if only guys, who can be compared to Tolkien, both in vastness of vision and quality of writing. It's my humble opinion that Storm of Swords might just be the best fantasy novel ever written, and that's even with, and in many ways because, the horrifying shadow of The Red Wedding looming over the entire book.
It's a book that was tough to read, tougher to reread (Cuz the RW), but maaaaaaaaan, talk about taking balls to write. Give Martin kudos there-he hit so high that it's almost impossible to reach that bar again.

I disagree on both of those.

Moorcock's prose is variable, but it's never less than competent (if you want to see really bad pulp fantasy prose, have a look at some of the '60s Conan pastiches, John Norman or Brian Lumley). The really interesting thing about Elric is that Moorcock's been writing about that character for most of the length of his career, so there's a very marked difference between the first rush of stories from the early '60s to about 1970, and the rather more sophisticated novels that he's added to the series since the turn of the '90s.

As for the Tolkein comparison, I'm not having that because it implies that Tolkein is as good as fantasy fiction gets, and that nobody has ever pastiched Tolkein as successfully as Martin, neither of which is true. For my money, Tolkein was at his best as a children's writer, rather than doing LOTR and The Silmarillion, and plenty of other writers (several writing before he published LOTR rather than imitating him afterwards) have published high fantasy texts of similar density and invention. ER Eddison (I can't be doing with the rest of the Zimhavia trilogy, but The Worm Ourobourous is a masterpiece) and James Branch Cabell were there first and Stephen Donaldson, Guy Gavriel Kaye, Ursula LeGuin, Fritz Leiber, Michael Scott Rohan, Jack Vance and Robert Holdstock are among the many who've done fantasies of comparable scope and power since LOTR first appeared.

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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/15/2012 3:16:42 PM   
Kana


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Status: offline 		See, I beg to differ with you here.
Re the Elric-you are right that Moorcock has been writing him most of his life...and it shows. Things like The Dreamtheives Daughter are elegant and rather olique, whereas the first few Elric novellas are pretty much Conan ripoffs, a fact that Moorcock has fessed up to more than once (Though he intentionally set up Elric as the polar opposite. Conan hates magic. Elric's a sorceror. Conan is an uncivilized barbarian (Based on Howards watching the rape of Texas done by the oilmen of his day) Elric is the last emperor of an sophisticated alien race, Conan is huge and strength is his forte. Elric is a weak albino who needs drugs/Stormbringer to survive...).
So yeah, at it's heart, it's pulp. (That said, hell yes it's better than Norman (A joke of a writer, as well as cats like Feist and Eddings who write tripe)
And remember, this is from a guy who basically had The Eternal Champion cycle memorized as a kid (PS-You ever read the second Hawkmoon series, when he brings the cycle to a close-that's some fine stuff there). I think the character himself is awesome, utterly unique, one of the great antiheroes of fiction, but man, those first two or three books have some painful moments and lots of em read like teenage angst come to life(Which Moorcock has also admitted)
Now I'm not gonna argue Worm Ouroboros, that's good shit, but if you're gonna go there you may as well go Gormenghast while you're at it. I like Covenent (The second series far more than the first)more than a little, Stephen R can write, but man, that's some grim shit-really tough to do a TV series off of. Mordants need would do better, but that's essentially Donaldson's take on a fairy tale.
Now, Fafhrd and Mouser, yeah, I'll back Leiber all the way(And almost through him out there in my prior post). He has the writing chops, the plotting, great originality (He's the cat who coined the term swords and sorcery) and Thieves House may be my favorite fantasy short story of all time. But the series gets weaker as time progresses and by the end he was writing pretty much just for the cash. I actually thought about LeGuin, but really, I'd rather see someone do The Riddlemaster series than most of her stuff.
I like Vance, but am not sure there's enough to work with in The Dying Earth and haven't read enough Kay to make a call either way(I kinda slowed down on Fantasy when I got in college and shifted more toward Bios, hard core history and shit like Aristotle and Rawls).
As for Tolkien, I have lots of trouble seeing LoTR as a child's series. First, cripes man, Tolkien contributed to the OED as a teenager, was one of the worlds great scholars re the origins of the English language, specializing in (IIRC) where Saxon words come from. He was a fricken Oxford Don for crying out loud. He also specialized in ancient epics, particularly Icelandic eddas.
And the man didn't just teach, he could write. Reread the scenes where Galadriel turns down the ring, or the charge of the riders of Rohan and the Battle of Pellinor fields(Or go to the appendices and read the Death of Arwen)-it's just amazingly well written.
The man is kinda the Hobbes of the field. He set the bar and everyone since has been compared to him
Perhaps a touch prosaic for some (especially modern readers) but hey, I'm a cat who prefers the King James version to the contemporary bibles, I like my thees and thou's.
Compare that CV to most modern writers and it's not even a battle.


edited cuz I can't type

< Message edited by Kana -- 10/15/2012 3:18:56 PM >

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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/15/2012 5:16:44 PM   
kiwisub12


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Status: offline 		Have to agree about Tolkien. I see a lot of derivative work since him, but nothing to compare him to prior to the Lord of the Rings.

and there is at least one series that is (an inferior) rewrite of the LotR. I read the first book and couldn't get away from the similarities. It was just annoying to read.

As for his other books - the Hobbit may have been written for kids, but i didn't care for it as a kid.
For epic kids books, i prefer Susan Coopers artherian books, or CS Lewis's books. .... oddly enough also English writers.

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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/16/2012 4:59:36 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		We probably are going to have to agree to differ on that Tolkein thing. For me, The Hobbit is a much better novel than LOTR, and as the Silmarillion was compiled by his son (and, for the three books of addenda Guy Gavriel Kay). I've always had a slight feeling that the things that made him such a wonderful children's writer didn't always help the tale he tells in LOTR. AS for setting the bar, I actually find it a little offensive that he's the one who gets credited with doing that rather than Eddison or Dunsany, who were both better writers, or at least more interested in telling stories than inventing languages.
(You do know that Eddison also translated a couple of the Icelandic sagas?)
One interesting note about Tolkein's interest in nordic folklore is that Poul Anderson's (wonderful) The Broken Sword was actually published six months before The Return Of The King, and draws on exactly the same material.

Regarding Moorcock, I wonder if you've read any of Karl Edward Wagner's Kane stories? Kane is one of the very few S&S characters who seems to be based more on Elric than Conan, and it's possible you'd prefer Wagner's prose to Moorcock's if the crudities in his early fiction put you off. Also, those are about the only of Wagner's books that you can find second hand for less than an arm and a leg.

Good call on Gormenghast, though personally I'd have said that one's more SF than fantasy. Also, there's already an excellent BBC television production of that one from about ten years back.

As for Vance, I was thinking more of Lyonesse than The Dying Earth (though Eyes Of The Overworld and Cugel's Saga would paste up nicely into a year's worth of telly), as that one has a fixed cast of characters through all three books, rather than shuffling through different unrelated protagonists. Really, I'd rather see one of Vance's SF series televised than his fantasy, but we're talking more about fantasy here, so...

I also think you're being far too harsh on Leiber. I wouldn't have said that the Fafhrd stories get worse over the course of the series, though it is true that a lot of the playfulness leaks out of the series after The Swords of Lankhmar. If it's his humour that's the biggest draw, then I can see how the much bleaker, darker tone to Swords And Ice Magic and The Knight And Knave Of Swords could be offputting. It doesn't make them weaker stories, though.

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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/16/2012 2:16:53 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Addenda: Another pre Tolkein fantasy masterpiece I should have mentioned is TH White's magnificent Once And Future King. (The really terrifying thing is that the original, long oop versions of those novels are vastly better than the unified rewrite that was published as the all in one edition, and those are doomed to vanish. You used to occasionally see the original version of The Sword In The Stone in libraries back in the dark ages when I was a kid, but all four are harder to find than rocking horse shit now...)

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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/16/2012 2:28:23 PM   
Kana


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Status: offline 		I'm all about OAFK, but notes grinning that there is already a movie version of Sword and the Stone :-)

Don't think I'm knocking Leiber to hard-the first three or four Fafhrd books are among my favorite fantasies ever.
Now the real interesting one is if they can ever pull the long rumored TV version of Stephen Kings Dark Tower series into creation. Watching that one will be fascinating

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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/16/2012 2:38:02 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Hang on: you're saying Leiber's stuff dribbles off into a lack of quality, and you want to see a King series that's at least two books too long filmed?

The film of The Sword In The Stone is nearly as bad as the '70s Robin Hood or The Black Cauldron, so I'd hope we can forget that one.

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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/16/2012 6:27:45 PM   
Kana


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Status: offline 		No, I said it will be fascinating to see how they pull it off. And I'm not so sure if it's two books to long, but it was certainly written way to fast post accident. I really, as in really really wish King had taken a decade or so finishing it-not busted the books out in his hospital bed.

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RE: Game of Thrones - 10/17/2012 3:49:10 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I do actually like the fact that King's accident spurred him to get the series finished, but almost everybody agrees that it didn't do the later books any favours at all.
Maybe we're better off with NotYourBitch rushing about to raise money instead of trying to get GOT finished...

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RE: Game of Thrones - 4/5/2013 2:59:19 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lilmissdefiant
Anybody else here love this show?
if you do were you pissed that they killed off Drogo (the hottest guy in it) via an infection and not in a battle, the way a true warrior should go out?

Hello!

I liked the books, and the TV series also (not so much but very well indeed).

The death of Kahl Drogo is one more sample of the many, many things George R.R. Martin does intentionally "against the dreams of the innocent reader". He does this many, many times, and it is completely intentional. His intention is, apparently, to show that fantasy can be realistic, even extremely realistic, by ignoring the topic and commonplaces on both characters, subjects and arguments.

So no, I wasn't, because if I were I would be pissed about the whole content of all books. I like them exactly *because* they "break the rules" systematically and heavily.

Besides that, the death of Kahl Drogo has many other meanings and implications:
- Daenerys learns not to trust people just because *she* was generous with them.
- How do you kill the best warrior of your time? Not by weapons. It is a logic end.
- It has its karma that he gets killed by one of his uncountable victims.
- His death pushes Daenerys to risk destroying the eggs. She has nothing more to loose, no other chance to succeed (or even to avoid death).

So... still kinda cool, IMHO.

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RE: Game of Thrones - 4/5/2013 3:05:18 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckjayjay
I often fantasize about Daenerys Targaryen cuckolding me and using me as her slave.

From a BDSM point of view ( I am an hetero dom ) my prize goes to, surprisingly for a series of books with 1000+ names characters, an unnamed character. The mother of Barra, that is, a prostitute of King's Landing who sincerely falls in love with Robert Baratheon. Pure innocent devotion. Extremely sexy.

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RE: Game of Thrones - 4/5/2013 3:08:37 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thaz
My vote would be for 'The Black Company'.
Read all but the end of the last, "many lives", I am stuck in the middle.
The tendency of those people to let problematic prisoners live was at some point extremely annoying. As they would simply not want to learn.

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RE: Game of Thrones - 4/5/2013 3:12:18 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucifyre
I do believe she is one of two of *the* main characters so killing her off isn't likely

IMHO she is "fire" (A Song of Ice and Fire). And the other is ice. And dead, right now... but with some Dondarrion-stlye chances still if I can Melisandre it correctly...

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RE: Game of Thrones - 4/5/2013 7:09:34 AM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucifyre
I do believe she is one of two of *the* main characters so killing her off isn't likely

IMHO she is "fire" (A Song of Ice and Fire). And the other is ice. And dead, right now... but with some Dondarrion-stlye chances still if I can Melisandre it correctly...


You talking about John snow? I'm still mad at what they did to him. Ingrates. I hope he dies and comes back. Upon his death his oath to the watch would be voided. Which would free him to get his his fathers castle back.

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