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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 5:50:31 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I honestly don't think Mourdock meant to say that God intends rape, but I'm still disquieted by the thought of rape as a delivery system for the "gift of life."


I dont often disagree with you DC, but in this case I do. If you split the paragraph in two it reads "Life is a gift from God" A fair enough comment, even to an atheist. The second part, however, reads as follows "And, I think, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen," he said."

That, to me, is explicitly clear. IE, "Even when life starts this way, God intended it to happen." Mourdock is clearly speaking about the event as a whole, and not just about the conception. The definitive word is "Even"


Part of it, I confess, was (a) my difficulty believing anyone would deliberately say something that stupid and (b) knowing that speech can come out in ways one doesn't quite mean. But your thoughtful post prompted me to watch the video twice (no mean feat with my elderly Flash viewer), and he does rather sound like he's talking about the whole event. Oh my.

ETA: Watching the video, it was interesting to watch Mourdock segue into Obamacare. It's darkly fascinating to contemplate a mindset in which a mandate the buy insurance is an intolerable invasion of individual liberty and a requirement to bear a rapist's child is not.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 10/24/2012 6:04:09 PM >


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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 5:51:03 PM   
BoundSlave4Life


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My problem? Anything GOOD that happens and it's God's blessing. Anything BAD and it's God's Test (Or the Devil).

I see "God" as an excuse for people to not take responsibility for one's own actions.


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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 6:00:53 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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FR

Many, if not all, religions in the world believe in the invisible hand of god working behind the scenes so that things come out as "they should". I personally think this was just religion's way of making people accept all the evil sad things that go on around us on a daily basis. i.e., that there is some divine reason for famine, war, murder, rape, pillage, etc. and these things are not just sad things that happen to individuals or communities.

Yes. Well. Just another reason for me not to believe in anyone's version of "god".

What I find harder to understand are the people who claim to be religious and believe in "god", but who find Mourdock's statement upsetting. Perhaps those who feel that way should re-evaluate their faith. After all, Mourdock is simply espousing a viewpoint about "god" that most religions share. One either believes....or one doesn't.

As for me, I have tremendous issue with what Mourdock states.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 6:19:19 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

In the case of moral evil, such as rape, there is, I realize, the factor of humans' free will. But that honestly strikes me as cold comfort.


It is cold comfort, then I found women to be no better. Where is warm comfort to be found except in what can appear at times to be in one's imagination? Evil is banal. It is not special nor is it extraordinary.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 6:40:45 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
god then gave women the free will to do with their bodies what they will( or is that only mens right)
He also "planted" herbs and plants to create abortifacients....

by that logic...

and he created dinosaurs and all that stuff that turns into oil....

and he created uranium...



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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 6:42:39 PM   
Lucylastic


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oh dear gawd, that was my point:)
I should have had the eye roll or something

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 6:59:24 PM   
dcnovice


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Speaking of God's moving in a mysterious way:

Beck: God 'guided' Romney to lose final debate

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 7:04:42 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I see the "it" as being the struggle between the act of rape and the pregnancy that may ensue.


Not attacking your interpretation, just showing why mine is what it is:

«I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realise that life is that gift from God. And, I think, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen.»

We have a narrative structure here. Let's make a few rewrites to highlight it.

«I struggled with it myself for a long time. Eventually, I came to realize that life is that gift from God. Therefore I think that: even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen.»

Now, the first sentence uses the dummy pronoun "it" because the "with" PP cannot be empty by prescription (English is not pro-drop). He could have used "I struggled with this myself" instead, but since he didn't, that branch is redundant. The PP is not necessary, and I think it is there because he doesn't want to say "I myself struggled" or "I, too, struggled" or "Too, I struggled". So let's leave out the "me too" bit that we can take to mean "I'm aware of the problem like the rest of you." and get a clearer structure.

«I struggled [with this] for a long time. Eventually, I came to realize that life is that gift from God. Therefore I think that: even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen.»

As I said, "with this" is only present because it's mandatory, it doesn't convey anything when we know the overarching topic. So let's lose it for clarity. In the same pass, let's disambiguate "that gift from God" into "a [special] gift from God." without bothering to write out the "[special]" part he implied with "that".

«I struggled for a long time. Eventually, I came to realize that life is a gift from God. Therefore I think that: even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen.»

We can see the topical subject emerging in the second sentence, to which the third sentence presents the conclusions to his thinking, and that topical subject is life. So let's lose the part where he says this is his conclusion, as we already know that, and will keep it in mind.

«I struggled for a long time. Eventually, I came to realize that life is a gift from God. Even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, it is something that God intended to happen.»

The third sentence starts with a topic and then makes a statement about it. For clarity, let's get rid of some subordinates. Two prepositional phrases and a couple of noun phrases can go:

«I struggled PP¹. Eventually, I came to realize that life is NP¹. Even when life begins PP², it is NP².»

We can make the binding sequence even clearer, as well as dropping some fluff:

«I struggled PP¹. I came to realize: life is NP¹. Even when it begins PP², it is NP².»

And a rewrite for more clarity, structurally allowed:

«I struggled PP¹. I came to realize: life is NP¹. It is NP². Even when it begins PP².»

Pared down this way, I think it should be clear how I thought that there could be only one viable antecedent to "it". That antecedent, "life", is structurally adjacent, a good fit in meaning, already the topical binding, and even occuring in the same subject role continuously throughout.

Other readings either cast the "it" binding way up past the bounding scope it is in (as you did; perfectly sensible, though I disagree), or casting the binding backwards in linear sequence, which is not how human language works (we have either context-sensitive grammar or recursively enumerable grammar, and the common analysis is via tree structures, which I couldn't be arsed to draw, photograph and post).

As I said, your interpretation is allowable and sensible enough, but I think mine is more accurate.

I'll try to be humble about a second language, though.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 10/24/2012 7:14:39 PM >


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 7:23:46 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Well, if you'd put your demagoguery away, you'd see that the rape isn't the gift, but the result of that rape, the life is the gift. Dude even said that rape is a horrible situation. We can discuss if a pregnancy is a gift or not, but we'll get nowhere, as I can not get pregnant and, judging from your profile pic, you can not get pregnant either. It being a gift or not is up to the person receiving it.

You have got to be kiding......are you seriously suggesting women who were raped, generally speaking, view giving birth as a gift ?
I`m flabbergasted anyone can think that.


You seriously need to slow down when you read.

I said the determination of it being a gift - getting pregnant, having a life start inside you - is up to the one receiving it. At no point in time did I say that rape is a gift. You have to be doing this on purpose.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 7:29:28 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

«I struggled with it myself for a long time. Eventually, I came to realize that life is that gift from God.


This says to me that he struggled with the "gift from God" belief.

quote:

"I'm aware of the problem like the rest of you."


Which is the "it" part.

So was he struggling with the concept of rape?

I dont think so.

The concept of life being a gift?

Most people consider pregnancy, under normal circumstances, a pleasant occasion.

So what was the struggle?

Seems obvious, to me, he struggled with the concept of how to view pregnancies that resulted from rape.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 8:21:07 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the disconnect comes from having been raised to revere God as all-loving and all-powerful and then discovering some of the unspeakable things that the "Heavenly Father" allows to befall "His children."

In the case of moral evil, such as rape, there is, I realize, the factor of humans' free will. But that honestly strikes me as cold comfort.

And I still wrestle with physical evil, which does not involve free will. Why, for instance, would the Deity allow disease to turn someone's experience of the "gift of life" into a living hell? Or wipe out hundreds or even thousands of people in a single blow via an earthquake or tsunami?


You speak for me exactly... Every day with every thought I struggle with my vision of God and how to reconcile it with the reality of life.

All I can come up with is it’s just the living of life with all the joy, love, pain, and suffering that is important. And a rare privilege in the universe granted to us by God.

Butch

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 9:15:41 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

This says to me that he struggled with the "gift from God" belief. [...]Seems obvious, to me, he struggled with the concept of how to view pregnancies that resulted from rape.


He couldn't reconcile the reality of rape with his condemnation of abortion, so dissonance results as it often does when doctrine meets reality (let's at least credit him with bothering to have the two meet in some way). I read what he said as presenting that the resolution, for him, was the epiphany that the conception was something good in itself (i.e. good happening under bad circumstances), which thus took away the conflict that caused his dissonance, because there's no longer a contradiction for him (since women aren't a concern for him in the midst of this at all; which is the part one can crucify him with, methinks).

Not defending the guy, just saying people are probably inventing his position (the one given in the thread title), when the one he (it seems to me) actually forwarded is more than enough to nail him to that vaunted cross of his. If I were going to invent a position for him, the far more offensive one (even to me as a Christian, albeit of my own denomination, not his) would be that he views women as mere dirt, soil in which all seed has a right to grow and bear fruit with no regard for her. Seems more credible than him alleging that women are being raped by divine decree so as to make babies.

ETA2: It just seems to me that when dealing with hate, we should be generous, lest we be infected ourselves by it. What inspires the impulse to hate will generally invite condemnation despite such generosity and thereby permit resolution without carrying a memetic hate virus from the enounter to jump from one carrier into the next and back in a neverending dance of destruction. (Not directed at you, just a sidebar.)

IWYW,
— Aswad.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 10/24/2012 9:30:07 PM >


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 9:28:59 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

He couldn't reconcile the reality of rape with his condemnation of abortion, so dissonance results as it often does when doctrine meets reality (let's at least credit him with bothering to have the two meet in some way). I read what he said as presenting that the resolution, for him, was the epiphany that the conception was something good in itself (i.e. good happening under bad circumstances), which thus took away the conflict that caused his dissonance, because there's no longer a contradiction for him (since women aren't a concern for him in the midst of this at all; which is the part one can crucify him with, methinks).


I agree... thats the "it". Someone else stated the "it" was his realization that the pregnancy was a gift from god... something I do not tend to believe... but rather the "it" being the struggle he went through to, as you put it, reconcile the act with the consequences into a nice, tidy little package that his moral beliefs could accept.

I think we all do that to some extent. Come to a point that, since we cant change things, we have to accept, and then figure out a way we can look at it to have it make sense to us.

That is the struggle he had. His way of dealing with it is to say that God gave these women a gift... something beautiful.. as a result of such a horrible act.

Just wish he had presented his words to a woman first before giving that to an audience.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 9:46:21 PM   
Aswad


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I think I'm misunderstanding where in the sentence the "it" you're talking about is; mine is the one in "it is something God intended to happen". It doesn't make sense to me to rewrite according to your interpretation as you now present it, which I read as "my struggle is something God intended to happen". It does make sense to me to rewrite according to my suggestion, giving "life is something God intended to happen" instead.

Not trying to be difficult. I'm just not following, and I'd like to: you're too often right for me not to pay close attention when we disagree.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 10/24/2012 9:47:17 PM >


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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 9:55:31 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

I think I'm misunderstanding where in the sentence the "it" you're talking about is; mine is the one in "it is something God intended to happen". It doesn't make sense to me to rewrite according to your interpretation as you now present it, which I read as "my struggle is something God intended to happen". It does make sense to me to rewrite according to my suggestion, giving "life is something God intended to happen" instead.

Not trying to be difficult. I'm just not following, and I'd like to: you're too often right for me not to pay close attention when we disagree.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



quote:

"I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realise that life is that gift from God. And, I think, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen," he said.


Thats the "it" I am referring too.



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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 10:16:11 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Thats the "it" I am referring too.


Ah, thanks. That's not the one I was thinking about, at all.

The title is "Now God intended rape to happen", reflecting the widespread interpretation that the guy meant to say "it (rape) is something God intended to happen", when I think he meant to say "it (life) is something God intended to happen", about which there was mention of the antecedent to "it" in that part of the last sentence, which lead me to the assumption that they were reading "it" incorrectly. I certainly do not contest that "I struggled with it" meant what you say it meant, but I don't see how that reading supports the interpretation in the title, which is what I read your post to support, which is why I replied. I'm now reading you as not necessarily supporting the title, but rather having made a comment about the other part of things. Hope that's right.

Sorry to have wasted your time. Mea culpa.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/24/2012 10:47:43 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

You don't respect me, I don't respect you.

Actually, I do respect you.

What I don't respect is your frequently ignorant opinions, the above providing a case in point.

K.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/25/2012 1:58:18 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

Many, if not all, religions in the world believe in the invisible hand of god working behind the scenes so that things come out as "they should". I personally think this was just religion's way of making people accept all the evil sad things that go on around us on a daily basis. i.e., that there is some divine reason for famine, war, murder, rape, pillage, etc. and these things are not just sad things that happen to individuals or communities.

Yes. Well. Just another reason for me not to believe in anyone's version of "god".


Indeedies. I find it difficult to accept the neat division that a lot of religions make between an omnipotent Deity, who is responsible for all things Good, and a Devil who is responsible for all things Evil, or a human 'free will' which seems to alternate between the two. As a social mechanism for allowing humans to cope with the vagaries of life (in the absence of an evidence-based explanation), it is quite a clever concept. But as a moral or rational scheme, it is sadly lacking.

If there is an omnipotent Deity, and that Deity is responsible for all 'creation', then that Deity must be responsible for the existence of the Devil and 'free will' and all the consequences that flow from creating those entities/qualities. If the Deity is all knowing, then it must be aware of Evil in advance of it happening, and therefore in a position to avert Evil - whatever its manifestation or alleged origin.

Thus, if one chooses to assert the existence of an omnipotent all-knowing Deity that created the world and all in it, then that Deity takes responsibility for everything - good bad or indifferent, no "ifs' 'buts' or exceptions of any kind. To grant any exception is to compromise the omnipotent, the all-knowing qualities already attributed to the Deity.

Ultimately, one is left with no logical alternative but to accept that the Deity carries responsibility for all Evil. Which seems to defeat the purpose of creating a concept of an omnipotent all knowing Deity in the first place.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/25/2012 2:01:16 AM >


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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/25/2012 3:18:45 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Well, if you'd put your demagoguery away, you'd see that the rape isn't the gift, but the result of that rape, the life is the gift. Dude even said that rape is a horrible situation. We can discuss if a pregnancy is a gift or not, but we'll get nowhere, as I can not get pregnant and, judging from your profile pic, you can not get pregnant either. It being a gift or not is up to the person receiving it.

You have got to be kiding......are you seriously suggesting women who were raped, generally speaking, view giving birth as a gift ?
I`m flabbergasted anyone can think that.


You seriously need to slow down when you read.

I said the determination of it being a gift - getting pregnant, having a life start inside you - is up to the one receiving it. At no point in time did I say that rape is a gift. You have to be doing this on purpose.


How is quoting you, in your entirety, doing anything on purpose. I didnt even say that you said rape is a gift, if anyone needs to slow down when they read, it isnt me.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/25/2012 6:27:31 AM   
DomYngBlk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

You don't respect me, I don't respect you.

Actually, I do respect you.

What I don't respect is your frequently ignorant opinions, the above providing a case in point.

K.



That infers that you have no ignorant opinions. I would disagree with that......Hence why I bothered to reply to you in the first place.

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