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RE: How Would You Do - 10/26/2012 4:47:17 PM

Kana

Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline

I'd be the worlds worst sub. I hate not being in control, I loath surrendering, don't give over at all, and, perhaps most of all, having been incarcerated for some time as a kid,including a pretty long stint in solitary,I've done the handcuff/involuntary restraint thing and God help anyone who tried to put cuffs on me now. I think I would do serious damage purely reflexively.
I just don't have a whole lot of give(As in give in) built into me-it ain't the way I'm wired and it sure as hell goes against everything I learned as a kid.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 21

RE: How Would You Do - 10/26/2012 5:45:13 PM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Except there was never a time in the leather community where you had to stsrt at the bottom. Its a myth and you of all people shouldnt spread that crap.

I would disagree. It is well documented that the 70's primarily gay leather community did have a mentorship requirement to "earn their stripes"& "learn from the bottom"

Actually, the opposite is true. Using books and articles actually published at the time...its clearly NOT true. Read "The Leathermans Handbook", published in the early 1970s and no such claims are made.

The "documentation" you speak of is mostly stuff from the 1990s...

I dont care one way or other but I do prefer facts.

You would be incorrect in assuming the leathermans handbook is the final say on all things kink. You would also be incorrect in assuming I learned all I know about gay culture & kink in the 90's! I grew up in one of the most out cities in the country, to the point that it was publically appropriate at the time to say I went to school "in the gay neighborhood". I learned these things, because I saw these things & read about them later. Gay parents of my friends also filled in blanks as was age appropriate. When 70's leather people are filling in the blanks of what they do in that time period, I will believe what I saw & learned first hand over any book.

Will be happy to provide citations later at my convenience so you can be condiscending to someone else!!!

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 22

RE: How Would You Do - 10/27/2012 2:51:33 AM

RaspberryLemon

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/18/2011
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Interesting thread, RemoteUser! Thanks for posting! :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser
If you were on the other side of the kneel, how well would you do? (This may not apply to switches, but for those who identify more with one side than the other, what would work and not work for you in the weaker role?)

Is it something you can imagine, or is it totally contrary to your nature - and despite that, could you make yourself take on the role? Are there aspects of the other side you would be comfortable with at all, or would it be too alien?

I make an all right leader when I have to be. In general I don't like taking on the leadership role. Then again, I don't generally prefer taking on an especially subordinate role, either. In most of my social interactions, I'm content to be where I fall naturally--equal footing with my peers, and in group settings, going with the flow and speaking up when I have something to say. I can say I feel slightly more dominant to (most) other peer females but essentially equal with peer males.

With my Master, it's different. It feels natural for him to lead and for me to follow his lead. I can't imagine having an intimate relationship where this was not the case.

So it really depends on context. In non-intimate settings, I can step up and lead when necessary or when no one else is doing it--I'm assertive and consistent, so it's not beyond my reach. It puts a little bit more pressure and stress on me than I'd like, so it's not exactly comfortable, but I can do it (and do an all right job of it) without a problem if it's not a long-term thing.

In an intimate setting, I feel it would be very contrary to my nature to be the leader or dominant one. Intimately speaking, I want a leader as my partner. So in the context of someone filling the "partner" role to me, respect is tied greatly into how good of a leader I perceive him to be. I feel that with trusting, respecting, and devoting myself to someone so much, submissiveness to my partner (on the condition they are someone who can illicit it from me--see: respect) is where I fall naturally.

I can't really imagine how I'd even end up in an intimate arrangement where I took on the opposite (leadership) role. Regardless, it would make me feel very uncomfortable, out of place, stressed out, and just plain wrong. To be honest, I would hold little to no respect for the subordinate as a man in this example, because when speaking in terms of my partner, good leadership is essential to my respect for him. So I imagine it just wouldn't work. I'd be uncomfortable and uneasy, feeling perhaps even disgust for the man as a result of my lack of respect for him. I couldn't do it.

(in reply to RemoteUser)

Post #: 23

RE: How Would You Do - 10/27/2012 2:55:53 AM

RaspberryLemon

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/18/2011
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Hmm...I can also answer for my Master here as well. He is always much more "at home" in a leadership position, intimate context or not. Generally speaking, in most social interactions, he's the one to step up and take charge and everyone else is content to follow because he's assertive, fair, confident, and charismatic.

He is, however, not arrogant, and thus is more than willing to stand down for someone he feels is more experienced or knowledgeable in whatever the circumstance or "subject" requiring leadership is. On the other hand, he is very not ok with someone else being leader if he does not respect that person/feels he would be more fit for the position, and will refuse to accept a subordinate position to that person unless he has to do so (law enforcement, superiors/officers when he was in the military, etc.)

Intimately, I don't think he could be submissive. Dominance and leadership are very much his "language" in love, so a partner who also prefers to lead would not suit him. There would be much conflict there if it were to happen, and I'm sure no one would be happy or healthy in that arrangement.

(in reply to RaspberryLemon)

Post #: 24

RE: How Would You Do - 10/27/2012 4:17:09 AM

myotherself

Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline

I've tried it, it was terrible.

I had a 'nilla boyfriend who enjoyed tying me up and doing unspeakably fun things, but then he expected the same in return. Once tied up, I had no idea what to do. I wanted direction from him, but he just kept saying 'use your imagination'. I found the situation a major turn-off and even stressful, to a point.

But when it comes to day to day life, I'm perfectly capable of looking after myself (have done for 30+ years). I could run a household, make all the decisions and keep things ticking over nicely. Thing is - I'd rather not do it. I don't like doing it - I do it because I have to. I find it a blessed relief when someone else comes in and says "I'll do that". I have no problem being given tasks to do, I just don't want to be in control.

I did once (briefly) date a switch, who convinced me that me being completely sub wasn't a problem. It wasn't, until he started ordering me to top him. I told him I couldn't do it, and he just couldn't understand why. I tried, but it ended in tears and angry words between us. It doesn't matter if I'm choosing to top or being ordered to top, I just can't do it.

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk

(in reply to RaspberryLemon)

Post #: 25

RE: How Would You Do - 10/27/2012 7:47:49 AM

MHAP

Posts: 58
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline

I have never (truly) considered being "Sub.", I have read alittle of the psych. and fist hand accounts, and i find i have no real common ground with the desire to "release control to another". I would guess i lack a certain amount of empathy.--(or perhaps im just a total bastard.. )

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 26

RE: How Would You Do - 10/27/2012 8:34:58 AM

Spiritedsub2

Posts: 3316
Joined: 7/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

You can bottom from a very dominant place just as you can top from a very submissive one.

If a sub tops from a submissive place, is that really subjugating oneself to the other side of the kneel as the OP posited? Or is that simply obeying a dominant's direction to top him?
I'm not entirely clear on the distinction between topping and dominating but I can't find the bdsm glossary on the site.

_____________________________

Don’t grieve. Anything you lose comes round in another form.
~ Rumi

Laughing Dolphin

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 27

RE: How Would You Do - 10/27/2012 10:39:43 AM

xLaChienne

Posts: 259
Joined: 11/12/2011
Status: offline

I don't adhere to the idea that submission is the "weaker role".

As to how well I would do? I wouldn't. I gave it a whirl once in My 20's for a weekend with a very good friend. I discovered that it bored the ever living fuck out of Me. While I could follow direction well enough outside of the bedroom, it was a concentrated effort to do so and not natural. Sexually? Yawn! The sex itself was pleasant enough but it didn't satisfy either of us on an emotional level. Neither of us got the responses or reactions needed to satiate that inner beast. It was extremely difficult to stifle My natural aggression and proclivities. I can have sex with a dominant male on equal footing and have a damned good time. I can not submit to another. It doesn't turn Me on, it doesn't get Me off, and it brings Me no satisfaction. I also discovered that any attempt of any kind of restraint will make Me feral. Pretty sure he walked away with more bruises and bite marks than I did.

I have more control now so it's possible I would do better at a whirl and be able to at least give the impression for a very short time but it would be nothing more than play acting and likely rather poorly done.

(in reply to RemoteUser)

Post #: 28

RE: How Would You Do - 10/27/2012 10:57:00 AM

Kana

Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline

True story here- A few years back, as in a decade or so ago, I met a gal and we became fast friends. Now, the problem was that she liked me more than a little, as in more than I liked her. I was fine with friendship but she wanted more. And I didn't feel the same attraction, had no idea why. I used to go up and down the idea in my head wondering why-I mean this chick was attractive, fun, smart, wild, funny, great company(Obviously, I was tight friends with her after all), but I just didn't feel any chemistry, that electric attraction that pulls me toward certain chicas.
One night while hanging out watching movies at my house I decided "The hell with it, maybe I can make that electricity occur," so we started fooling around.
Of course that led to other things, first base turned to second, then third and before ya know it I was sliding into home.
Which woulda, coulda, shoulda been great...except for one small thing-it wass the worst sex I've ever had.
Not because she wasn't into it (She was), and not because i didn't find her hot (She was), but because it turned into an unspoken power struggle. She kept trying to take control, and that's something I just don't give. Instead I kinda take the lead from the gate and run from there.
And that wasn't happening.
None of which made sense to me for a few years (And it actually hurt our friendship for a while. Things got real awkward for a few months because she wanted to go further and I was pulling back, not wanting to hurt her feelings) until one day I was helping her move and noticed some handcuffs hanging from her bedpost.
Noticing me looking at them (She had no clue I was into kink but knows me well enough to know that nothing freaky was gonna make me flip), she said something along the lines of "I like to tie my little boys up and take advantage of em," and all of a sudden, much that had been unclear became crystal transparent.
She was into bedroom domination, and I'm all about taking charge. No wonder our sex was awful, and no wonder I felt a struggle for control and that the chemistry wasn't there.
made me laugh and laugh.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to xLaChienne)

Post #: 29

RE: How Would You Do - 10/27/2012 1:48:46 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

You can bottom from a very dominant place just as you can top from a very submissive one.

If a sub tops from a submissive place, is that really subjugating oneself to the other side of the kneel as the OP posited? Or is that simply obeying a dominant's direction to top him?
I'm not entirely clear on the distinction between topping and dominating but I can't find the bdsm glossary on the site.

People dont always fit dictionary definitions nor do some romps in the sac. The reality is sometimes forgetting about labels and instead focusing on the energy is far more important. To me, kink is secondary to the power dynamic, and I tend to date dommes as my submissive partners and train them to violate their.limits, so my chops as a dominant are well established. That said, I have sucked on the boot heel of a woman I later fed her my cum as it dripped out of her cunt and filled her mouth with my piss. We knew who was who but it wasnt important in the moment important, mindblowing sex was!

(in reply to Spiritedsub2)

Post #: 30

RE: How Would You Do - 10/27/2012 10:55:18 PM

Spiritedsub2

Posts: 3316
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

You can bottom from a very dominant place just as you can top from a very submissive one.

If a sub tops from a submissive place, is that really subjugating oneself to the other side of the kneel as the OP posited? Or is that simply obeying a dominant's direction to top him?
I'm not entirely clear on the distinction between topping and dominating but I can't find the bdsm glossary on the site.

People dont always fit dictionary definitions nor do some romps in the sac. The reality is sometimes forgetting about labels and instead focusing on the energy is far more important. To me, kink is secondary to the power dynamic, and I tend to date dommes as my submissive partners and train them to violate their.limits, so my chops as a dominant are well established. That said, I have sucked on the boot heel of a woman I later fed her my cum as it dripped out of her cunt and filled her mouth with my piss. We knew who was who but it wasnt important in the moment important, mindblowing sex was!

I see just from this thread alone and some of the most recent posts that some people are or can be very flexible with their partners (Michael) and others absolutely cannot (Kana). Evidently it's yet another thing that is entirely idiosyncratic to the person, even though both may identify as dominant (or whatever). I've already found that something I thought essential to me (the other's gender) turned out to be less compelling than the dynamic of interacting with a dominant.

_____________________________

Don’t grieve. Anything you lose comes round in another form.
~ Rumi

Laughing Dolphin

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 31

RE: How Would You Do - 10/27/2012 11:55:09 PM

MalcolmNathaniel

Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline

Poorly.

Very poorly.

I don't necessarily have to be the dominant in non-sexual relationship scenarios, like at work. I don't take orders very well though. I just end up doing what I wanted to do anyway.

Whether talking my way into the position where I'm known to be correct or just by doing it anyhow. Do what you want and ask forgiveness later.

Besides, most people are sheep; repeat the same thing enough times (but with different words) and they'll believe it.

You know who aren't sheep? Usually it's the subs/slaves. That's been my experience at least.

(in reply to Spiritedsub2)

Post #: 32

RE: How Would You Do - 10/28/2012 6:33:26 AM

Muchtado

Posts: 29
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline

An old saying holds true here, “A tiger can not change its stripes.” As I have stated before, I am one of those that started out thinking that I was submissive. I will not go into the whole story but I will tell you this, I hated the submissive roll. That roll is not in my nature.

I do have to agree with xLa that about submission is not the weaker roll. It is different and the needs and feelings are dissimilar. I can not sit here and talk to you about subspace. I have never experienced it. But I can tell you that it is real and a powerful attraction to the submissive personality. Submissive does not mean weak.

That is not to say I have not met weak submissives before. I have also met ineffectual dominants. What I look for in a submissive or slave is strong qualities. In my experience I have met three basic types of submissives. First there is the submissive who does not know where they fit so they call themselves a submissive. Secondly there are the submissives that need to serve others. And third, there are the submissives that want to serve others.

Personally I find the third kind preferable. In my experience I have found that submissives that want to serve, serve from a position of strength. They generally have strength of character and a sense of self-worth that I personally find alluring.

Trying the submissive roll may or may not work for you. As for me I it would not work. It would only be an act and I would not get anything out of it. And one more point you may want to consider. Let’s say that you are trying the submissive roll and you are being spanked because that is something you like to do. If it turns out that you hate being spanked then you might shy away from it with your submissive, even if it is something that they want from you. It could actually do more harm than good. Just something to think about.

(in reply to MalcolmNathaniel)

Post #: 33

RE: How Would You Do - 10/28/2012 8:17:21 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

I see just from this thread alone and some of the most recent posts that some people are or can be very flexible with their partners (Michael) and others absolutely cannot (Kana). Evidently it's yet another thing that is entirely idiosyncratic to the person, even though both may identify as dominant (or whatever). I've already found that something I thought essential to me (the other's gender) turned out to be less compelling than the dynamic of interacting with a dominant.

I want to draw a distinction here since subtleties are often lost on the internet.

Mastery is about being in control of yourself and your reactions. So to me, being in control of my need to control has been an interesting exploration. As with the guy who cant back down with a cop or a boss, he isnt in charge of himself because he cannot master his impulses. Bottoming holds no interest for me, except maybe bottoming to a good massage.

Many many years ago I bottomed once for an experience that was supposed to make me a better dominant. That whole myth about needing it to understand better to make you a better top. It was with a very well known domme in San Francisco, an officer in the 2nd oldest bdsm group in the country etc.

Horrible experience, I ended up having to give her aftercare, lol!

Another domme I lived with for many years we didnt do much classic kink because the energy wast right but we did have fabulous rough brutal sex. The only time she could cum from anal was when I just took her with no warning or foreplay.

Fast forward over a decade and I bottomed once to someone many here know and it was the event that turned her from my bottom to my submissive who set aside many of her limits for me after that. It was an act that showed her how important she was to me and that trust and bonding was very much a turning point.

The woman in my new profile pic is a domme, but we both enjoy fucking with peoples expectations and preconcieved notions. That pic was taken at Folsom Street in San Francisco where we throw a street fair for 300,000 people in public with sex and nudity. So, our plan had been for her to wear that icon of female dominance, the strap on and then I was going to walk her around using her cock as my leash. Sex with her is not about her submission, she isnt submissive to me. Its about force and power. The worst scene we have had was when I made her beg for my cock, force it in, yes! , begging? No.

Its all about the energy created between two people.

Its all about the energy.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 10/28/2012 8:21:36 AM >

(in reply to Spiritedsub2)

Post #: 34

RE: How Would You Do - 10/28/2012 9:04:13 AM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

I have been on both sides of kneel. Over 40 years ago I started my journey in leather as a bisexual S&M switch. In my neighborhood, with leathermen, fresh young meat started as a slave/boy/bottom. Eventually I grew hair on my chest, my balls turned to brass and as a young bear I grew into a hetro/Master by educated choice. I gave my first collar at the age of <enter TOS violation here>.

I had a switchy girl in my exploratory educational period and I recall being uncomfortable when in bondage. I couldn't perform one of my primary duties of protection if tied up. Once she tied me up to the headboard in a mock oral rape and wouldn't untie when I asked. I ended up breaking the headboard and taking my pleasure from her instead of letting her remain in control.

Can I imagine what it would be like to switch or did I ever know how to switch? Yes, although they are distant memories.

If you were on the other side of the kneel, how well would I do . . . can I switch? Nope, not really. I have educated preferences now and it would violate my well formed core. I might be the very worst sub ever.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to RemoteUser)

Post #: 35

RE: How Would You Do - 10/28/2012 9:09:40 AM

Kana

Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline

What gives anyone the idea that I'm not flexible with my partners?
I have some very amorphous ground rules (Serve, please, obey)but outside those I never take different relationships to be the same thing. And i understand that people change over time, so their relationships do too as well.
Heck, the lilone and I have dramatically changed our dynamic at least twice in our time together, both times due to internal and/or physical changes she had undergone. Not me. I rolled with the changes, and in some instances predicated them because I saw the energy between us changing, that our tastes and desires had shifted, and were (and are) continuing to alter.
A relationship is like a garden, you plant it, water it, tend it, but it still tends to flourish in it's own fashion, according to it's own rules. And, far more importantly is realizing that while I can create the situation where the garden can grow, that I'm not the one who makes it grow.
I'm repeatedly on record here as saying that I think each and every relationship has it's own dynamic, based on the partners tastes, likes, values, desires and interactions, as well as the chemistry that emerges and grows between the two.
Now, I don't shift roles w/i the relationship(otherwise I'd be a switch)-I like power, I like control, that's just how I'm wired, part of who and what I am. Kind of like I'm white, Irish, have grey eyes-these are immutable things that just are-same with being in control. But w/i those parameters, I have lots and lots of latitude. I've run straight power exchanges with no emotions involved, lovey dovey emotion based things, done straight sado/maso, also been, as I am now, heavily into D/S and even done strictly B&D dynamics as a kid.
To piggyback on what Michael said, each relationship has it's own dynamic, it's own energy.
Over the years, usually via fucking things up, I've learned not to do strict hard and fast rules that constrain and limit the interaction, prevent it from flowering and growing into all it could be.
Instead I let the energy develop organically, holistically, and thus, reach it's greatest potential.
Why? Because life humbled me, taught me that I don't know everything, that WE can be far more than what I envision-that when I blindly and callously thrust my ideas into a relationship determined that there is only way to live/rule/go, I will throttle something that could have been magical and destroy it.

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool ...
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.” ― Socrates

One can have no smaller or greater mastery than mastery of oneself.- Da Vinci

Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.-Aristotle

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 36

RE: How Would You Do - 10/28/2012 9:14:35 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Sir,

I was thinkingg this thread was about to descend into chest thumping bravado but that was an awesome post and I couldnt agree more.

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 37

RE: How Would You Do - 10/28/2012 9:17:21 AM

Spiritedsub2

Posts: 3316
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline

Sorry; by "flexible" I did mean switching roles, switching from topping to bottoming. I thought you had said in an earlier post that you didn't do that, and Michael said he had.

That was an amazing post, Kana. Worth reading over and over.

< Message edited by Spiritedsub2 -- 10/28/2012 9:21:05 AM >

_____________________________

Don’t grieve. Anything you lose comes round in another form.
~ Rumi

Laughing Dolphin

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 38

RE: How Would You Do - 10/28/2012 9:32:44 AM

MadameM4U

Posts: 62
Joined: 4/23/2012
Status: offline

I am a dominant female. It is not something I "do", it is who I am.
.
I remember as a small child telling my parents what I thought they should do and how I thought it should be done. My dad was a strong dominant and my efforts at asserting myself did not go over well with him as he saw it as a struggle for power which he tried to squelch with beatings. I remember refusing to cry out as he beat me, simply to deny him the satisfaction. The beatings stopped when I finally was old enough to defend myself and hit him back.
.
Could I make myself submissive to someone else? Yes, I believe I could because I can control my behavior and force myself to do things that go against my nature, but only for a short time and probably not as well as someone for whom that is their nature. Would I enjoy it? Probably not because it wouldn't feel "right" to me but I would undoubtedly keep in mind my audience and the reason I was engaged in the performance.
.

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 39

RE: How Would You Do - 10/28/2012 9:56:50 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Mastery is about being in control of yourself and your reactions. So to me, being in control of my need to control has been an interesting exploration. As with the guy who cant back down with a cop or a boss, he isnt in charge of himself because he cannot master his impulses.

This. I expect to have mastered myself -- ALL of myself. I mean seriously... I can live with not having mastered some parts of Carol. But ME.... I'm home court. My own mind is mine and I damned well expect to be in charge of it at least. If I were to say that I was not able to submit to someone else it'd actually be a HUGE blow to my own ego and greatly weaken my own sense of dominance. At that point I have to admit I've got something like an addiction and I'm not in control of myself. I probably shouldn't be bossing around anyone else either.

What Kana said above makes more sense to me. Carol's and my relationship will evolve as it does and I will do my part to make it as wonderful as I can. And you can damned well bet that I expect myself to put in at least as credible a job as she has done no matter what sort of vagueness and role reversals life throws our way. My love affair with Carol is way, way more precious to me than my role in the marriage. And as I've said many a time, my sense of my own dominance isn't rooted in my home life. It's a function of how I interact with the entire world. "Home" is just one piece of that. Being the slave at home would not change my own view of myself. Failing to be able to be a slave at home sure as heck would though.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 40

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