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RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/28/2012 8:06:27 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

The problem here in my mind is that we're using BDSM jargon which is entirely undefined. If someone wants to define "dominance" as "the act of dancing in the rain" then they can. More specifically, vast swathes of BDSM-land like to define dominance in terms of what you cannot do. To me it seems odd to define such a word in terms of restrictions but it ain't my definition. To me, ALL of the BDSM-isms are nigh unto incomprehensible so I just ignore them. I think you're tilting at windmills here Michael.

For me, I neither know nor care whether I am "dominant" or any other BDSM word. What I DO care about is that I am the one who is in control of me and much of the immediate world around me. I'm perfectly happy to be self-sovereign and <insert BDSM label here>.

Jeff, sorry nut you always take this stand and I bite my lip but since this is my,thread I am going to call you on this. Define management, or quality, or any other corp mumbo jumbo. Lots of shitty managers, lots if different methods, etc. Doesnt mean the wirds have no meaning but you need to use more descriptors to clarify your meaning.

My intent was the opposite of tying down a narrow definition but instead to show how broad the meanings can be.
.
And dominance, like management, comes in many flavors

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 21

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/28/2012 8:55:47 PM

xXsoumisXx

Posts: 339
Joined: 7/26/2009
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Someone asked me this in a PM but I thought it would make a great topic.

I am not trying to put forth a definitive definition of these words, I am simy trying to illustrate several common states of being in the scene. I do not believe in black and whit, the world is much more vibrant than that. I am using myself for clarity, these are not real life examples, lol!

If someone takes a class on flogging only to learn how to wield a flogger, they bottoming with ni emotuonal attachment to the act or the top.

If someone gets flogged by some hot chick they want to fuck they are bottoming with no emotional attachment to flogging but some with the top.

If a lesbian gets flogged by an amazing male top because they love flogging, she is emotionally involved with the flogging but not the top.

Submitting comes from a very different place. The emotional connection changes everything.EDITED FOR THE IDIOTS WHO CANT READ...

For me, the bolded is where it is for me. I can imagine many many different scenarios.. some might be a turn on, some not. but if He is involved somehow, watching.. listening.. ordering.. it all becomes sexy and a turn on.
I am not really turned on by female Dominance. But once we met a Domme and played.. or, rather, she and i played while He watched. It was a huge huge turn on for all of us. But would have done nothing for me had He not been there watching.
for me, it is not about the implement, or the location, but about the connection. With Him, just about anything goes. Without Him, not so much.

< Message edited by xXsoumisXx -- 10/28/2012 8:58:54 PM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 22

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/28/2012 9:10:14 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2
I think "need to know" with regard to jargon depends somewhat on where you are in your bdsm life. For newbies, I can tell you we need to know some damned jargon, and it would help if anyone's idea of what the jargon meant coincided with anyone else's, which it doesn't seem to do!

I sympathize. Really I do. But as you correctly say the jargon is totally undefined. The good news is that you really don't need to know it since it doesn't communicate anything anyway. Just ignore when someone says they are dom, sub, slave, whatever and listen to what they tell you.

quote:

I am meeting a couple of new people right now, and we are at the stage of talking about ourselves and what we are interested in, how we identify, etc. I am (almost) laughing at the prospect of trying to tell somebody who doesn't know me what I am, and of trying to accurately assess them by what labels they use to describe themselves.

What I'd do is nod politely when they told me they were "M/s", "D/s", "J/q" or whatever and look attentive. They'll follow on with descriptive words if you encourage them to. When they ask how you identify just don't respond with a label. Rather, describe the kind of relationship you seek. Let them put whatever label on it that makes sense to them. It's their label to help their heads get wrapped around a complex topic (you) so let them use whatever one works for them.

Random Stranger, "So Jeff, what kind of dynamic do you have?"
Me, "We aren't particularly kinky and I'm thoroughly in charge."

quote:

I have already experienced the backlash of being called a "fake" or a liar when my understanding clashes with someone else's understanding of the same word or concept.

*laughs* Congratulations, join the club. I've been called both fake and liar here although such things don't happen in real life. I just think of it as idiots being idiotic on the internet. Conveniently for you, usage of the words "real" or "fake" in this context instantly identifies the speaker as clueless which should really simplify your search.

quote:

So I try to figure out what people are talking about by reading these threads and opinions. Don't intend to be rude; I am venting a little frustration here.

No rudeness. I feel for you. I just opted out of the whole undefined label game to start with. That way none of it matters.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Spiritedsub2)

Post #: 23

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/28/2012 9:23:19 PM

Spiritedsub2

Posts: 3316
Joined: 7/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Just ignore when someone says they are dom, sub, slave, whatever and listen to what they tell you.

When they ask how you identify just don't respond with a label. Rather, describe the kind of relationship you seek. Let them put whatever label on it that makes sense to them.

That makes sense: ignore (most of) the labels and go straight to the underlying substance. However, I wouldn't be inclined to ignore a man saying he is dom, sub, slave. That is a pretty fundamental qualifier to me, and I am not interested in men who would identify themselves as sub, slave, or even switch (except as platonic friends). Although I sure do get a lot of private messages from sub/slave men; very puzzling. And although I like the idea of describing the type of relationship sought rather than labeling it D/s, M/s, for some new people including me, that isn't entirely clear for us starting out. But reading threads like this one and many others does help gain some clarity, albeit slowly.

< Message edited by Spiritedsub2 -- 10/28/2012 9:24:09 PM >

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(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 24

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/28/2012 9:29:43 PM

JanahX

Posts: 3443
Joined: 8/21/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2

Although I sure do get a lot of private messages from sub/slave men; very puzzling.

Please - do not let these guys puzzle you. It is quite clear that they are the ones who are puzzled, and do not know why they are on this site, or why they are here in general. Most likely they will die soon - because they are too stupid to cross a street safely.

< Message edited by JanahX -- 10/28/2012 9:30:09 PM >

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The second rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.

(in reply to Spiritedsub2)

Post #: 25

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 4:00:40 AM

kalikshama

Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

I understand where you're coming from, LW.

Some anal play is fine - rimming (which I hate, but will do for him), even maybe sticking a finger in if I really have to (I'm glad he doesn't like this lol!).

But actually using a toy in his ass - no way, Jose! Although I can see it's not necessarily a dominant act, it puts me in too much control of the play for me to be able to deal with. Even if he's directing the play, it's still too much.

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Post #: 26

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 6:29:57 AM

Spiritedsub2

Posts: 3316
Joined: 7/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2

Although I sure do get a lot of private messages from sub/slave men; very puzzling.

Please - do not let these guys puzzle you. It is quite clear that they are the ones who are puzzled, and do not know why they are on this site, or why they are here in general. Most likely they will die soon - because they are too stupid to cross a street safely.

Thanks for the 6 a.m. laugh! And love the new sock.

_____________________________

Don’t grieve. Anything you lose comes round in another form.
~ Rumi

Laughing Dolphin

(in reply to JanahX)

Post #: 27

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 10:46:21 AM

NiceButMeanGirl

Posts: 2756
Joined: 11/4/2011
From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
Status: offline

I am a Domme. I Dominate my sub, I Dominate my play partner, I Top my friend's sub sometimes for her, and I also will bottom for sensations because I love being flogged. To me, bottoming does not necessarily involve submitting. When I bottom, I still regain control of what's happening to me....receiving sensations. To me, submitting is giving up control & bottoming is not. So I'm not a switch, I am a Domme who is receiving sensations.

NBMG

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 28

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 10:55:25 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Jeff, sorry nut you always take this stand and I bite my lip but since this is my,thread I am going to call you on this. Define management, or quality, or any other corp mumbo jumbo. Lots of shitty managers, lots if different methods, etc.

But that is not what I refer to when I say this Michael. I get it that there are good doms and bad doms... good subs and bad subs. I also get it that there are lots of ways to skin a cat. But I can absolutely define ANY of that corporate mumbo-jumbo more precisely than I can define a word like "submit" when used in the BDSM context. That's what happens when you take an English language word and turn it into a game... it becomes useless for communication. But hey, if you can make sense of it all then more power to you. After 5 or 6 years now I myself still have absolutely no clue what pretty much any of the words mean. I do, however, get the meaning behind descriptive paragraphs if they are descriptive enough. Ergo...

If someone takes a dildo up the ass they are submissive -- in a fair number of people's opinions.

There is no Websters to ever resolve those differences of opinion. You may have your opinion and I may have mine but there is no canonical source to check who's opinion is "right".

Wanna discuss the difference between sub & slave?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 29

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 1:13:15 PM

Spiritedsub2

Posts: 3316
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline

It seems that there is no common ground for ANY terms lately! I just a funny exchange with a man on the other side. He wanted us to exchange "basic information" before we decided to meet. I thought (ok, assumed) that "basic information" meant what I looked like, weigh, marital status, employment status, any kids, etc. No; to him it meant filling in that kink list on the left-hand side of the profile! I haven't heard back from him since... For anyone who's read Hitchhiker's Guide, we all need a Babel fish in our ears.

_____________________________

Don’t grieve. Anything you lose comes round in another form.
~ Rumi

Laughing Dolphin

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 30

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 1:16:45 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

First, you might want to consider not posting originals from your phone. You can't blame folks for not getting the entire concept when you are somewhat limited and the device throws out a lot of errors. That's not Me being a grammar Nazi. It's an observation.

Second, I'm curious why bottoming is being confused with submitting at all given the examples that you chose. None of those is especially submitting. Maybe a further clarification is in order, rather than in the original, setting the stage to be antagonistic by referring to responders as idiots.

_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 31

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 2:52:39 PM

kitkat105

Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/29/2011
From: Eating dutch crunch in the Silicon Valley
Status: offline

I think the emotional connection is probably different, at least it would be for me.

I submit to Odeen because He's my Dominant, my husband, etc. There are things that I do, because He says so - even if I may not particularly enjoy it, because there is an emotionally connection there. I trust & love Him, so submission comes easily.

However, there are things that I would love to try & it if was someone I know & trust, I would just be purely 'bottoming' for the enjoyment of the activity - ie. wax play, needle play, etc.

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(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 32

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 4:22:17 PM

ARIES83

Posts: 3648
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Des, first off I was pissed because her post derailed the thread into the typical " who's more dommy" bullshit rather than a thoughtful exploration of the subject. Secondly, she didnt seem to take offense as we had a polite exchange afterward. Lastly, if someones religion prevented me from doing the sexual things I wanted, I am going to either do some serious behavior modification or some serious location modification.

Silly me. I thought this was a discussion board and the topic was about bottoming and submitting. Now that i know you take such offense, I will no longer post to your threads or your thoughts. Thanks for letting me know.

This has a uncanny similarity to the type of thing
that happens with patriarchy sometimes.

Sometimes you will have people saying they are
in that type of situation because they feel that as
a woman, serving their man and letting him lead
makes them happy, or having structure and
authority in their life makes them happy ect...

That was a traditional foundational relationship
dynamic way back when, now it it being pushed
toward the fringe and labled as "1950's Household"
and the like.
You can call these concepts traditional gender
roles, or maybe Heterosexual Maledom, but I have
noticed that if a sub said that, it feels right for the
the man to be in charge, there is sometimes
a backlash from people not into the same dynamic.

Sometimes along the lines of a feminist argument
saying it is not the place of women to be bossed
around by men.
Whatever the case maybe, how can what 'feels right"
for one sub be up for debate...
Why would anyone consider what "makes her happy"
something to take offence at.

Or in LW's case what would make her unhappy in the
form of a Dom asking her to fuck their ass with a
dildo or whatever...
Some girls inseparably relate patriarchy and 1950's
type lifestyles with heterosexuality, I'm sure a lot of
subs would blanch at the thought of fucking their Dom
up the ass with a dildo as it is probably way outside
their happy zone.

And from a Hetro Dom perspective, you can justify it
however you want, even if there's a whole harrem of
supermodel babes, if they have strap ons and are
fucking you in the ass, that aint hetro.

-Aries

_____________________________

530 DAYS

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 33

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 10:23:59 PM

Aynne88

Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

I understand where you're coming from, LW.

Some anal play is fine - rimming (which I hate, but will do for him), even maybe sticking a finger in if I really have to (I'm glad he doesn't like this lol!).

But actually using a toy in his ass - no way, Jose! Although I can see it's not necessarily a dominant act, it puts me in too much control of the play for me to be able to deal with. Even if he's directing the play, it's still too much.

Add me to this group ladies. I can't be turned on at all by the though of him face down ass up getting reamed in the ass by me with whatever it's not something I can cope with. Not happening. I've done it with casual play partners that called themselves Doms but to me I was totally domming them. Which I do or have done with no reservations. But with my man? Nope. Not to mention he wouldn't allow it anyway or ask for it which is fine by me. Emotionally and mentally it isn't something I can do with him and feel like he's in charge. Same with bi men. Fine in the days of casual play but to visualize my man being with a man? I can't.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 34

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 10:41:16 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Submitting comes from a very different place. The emotional connection changes everything.

Totally agree here.

I used to feel a bit squicked at the thought of a dominant male wanting a sensation that *I* would normally receive. And I've read on these boards for years that "acts are not submissive" and I agreed with it....except. Yanno, except if *my* dominant male wanted something, I didn't think I could deal with it.

Enter the Mister, totally dominant in personality, who has been able to become my own authority, no question. And then one day he wanted to explore something...and it threw me for a loop. It was just an act, and I've chanted with the choir along with the best of them that "acts are not submissive" but it still threw me.

I was forced to look at things from a different and uncomfortable perspective. Here is a man who is so confident with himself, and who trusts me so much, that he unabashedly instructed me to do something. He took me out of my comfort zone, and it was good for me to go there - I learned more about myself that way, and we shared a moment that was pretty incredible, on many levels. He was totally in control of that "scene," and the fact that I was so uncomfortable with it underlined that fact.

I'm grateful for the experience, and I'm grateful for him for trusting me like that. I see him no less dominant than I've always seen him. I respect him even more, and we are closer for it.

I wonder, if it was a female dominant who wanted her submissive to have sex with her - to insert something into her - if she would also be seen as less than dominant as a result? Or is it just the men?

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 35

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 10:53:23 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

I dont like anything up my ass other than a tongue but I am stunned how many think a guy recieving anal is submissive or even gay, lol! I do this stuff to step OUTSIDE the box society wants to cram me in, not lock myself in it. Same goes for the kink scene, I am at a dungeon and people frown on having sex...oh baby, game on!

Another thing, I better not read anyone bitching about some chick topping from the bottom while you are fucking her in the ass.

And I really hate to say this but I almost wish Bossyshoebitch would post cause I think it would make some peoples heads spin off.

(in reply to Aynne88)

Post #: 36

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 10:57:22 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

I wonder, if it was a female dominant who wanted her submissive to have sex with her - to insert something into her - if she would also be seen as less than dominant as a result? Or is it just the men?

There is only one true path...

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 37

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 11:00:02 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

There is only one true path...

Or so they'd have you believe...

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 38

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 11:07:04 PM

Aynne88

Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline

Why does everyone get so defensive when we post our opinions? First of all I think there is nothing gay about it, maybe it's a shortcoming I have, I'll own it. I didn't see where the other ladies said it seemed gay either. Just not something I can get into. I know how submissive, vulnerable and exposed I feel when I am being penetrated anally. I do not want a man as my primary partner that wants that, whether you want to call it sensation play or whatever. Of course anything is sensation play, but to deny the emotional feelings connected to a lot of that is being dishonest. I also don't want him to ask me to piss in his face. Does he do it to me? Yes. I guess I am just an old fashioned kinkster then, and apparently not the only one here. This topic and Daddy Doms always seem to get me into a debate and I don't want to.

For the record I know a lot of purely het men that like ass play, I don't want to give it to my significant other. Kind of simple really. I am allowed to like what i like still right? It fucks with my mind to do things I associate as Dominant to my Dominant. Not really that crazy.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 39

RE: Bottoming, submitting, and other states of mind - 10/29/2012 11:10:51 PM

BoundSlave4Life

Posts: 116
Joined: 7/25/2006
Status: offline

To build on to what littlewonder said --- I could NEVER be with switch. There's just no way I could submit to someone who submits to someone else. I would NEVER see them in the same light. That is why I PERSONALLY am a firm believer of "Switches can't be Masters/Mistresses". Being a slave is a full time 24/7 job. So is being a Master/Mistress. I could never look at Master the same if I knew he was submitting to someone.

(in reply to Spiritedsub2)

Post #: 40

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