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OttersSwim -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 8:01:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

Half of that (His first 2 years) he had a fillibuster proof congress. He used that to put in place a batch of legislation for a "sign it and we will hammer out the details later" health program that looks to be a very expensive proposition. Yes it helped a few million that could not (and much more quietly a different equal sized segment that did not want to) help themselves. He also ordered an assasination, and bought the country a car company. and invested in several very exciting developers of alternate fuel systems that have had some difficulties in turning green ideas into job creating, environmental issue solving and tax generating profit centers. sorry, I know that profit is a curse word. Most companies would fire someone with this kind of track record. It is my predecessor's fault only works for a while, and while the race thing will work for a bit and garner sympathy, it does not guarantee or even suggest a contract renewal.



How I view those events:

He made an attempt at spending tax dollars at home on healthcare for Americans. You gotta start somewhere - this is something I want.

He protected our country from further attack by known enemies by doing what any responsible President would have, should have, and did do. Bin Laden had to go. I am liberal and all, but you fly planes into buildings in my country and kill our citizens, we are going to hunt you down and kill you deader than Julius Ceasar.

The auto bailout was necessary and in my opinion, the economy today would be much much worse off if the Government did not step in. I know opinions vary on the cost, but in my view - necessary cost. Again, the action that any responsible Government would have, should have, and did take.

I don't buy the whole green energy failure conspiracy theory. At least he was thinking alternative energy rather than just continuing to support polluting our country with failing resources of fossil fuels.

But in any case, I never even get to these issues when Republicans are out there actively legislating morality - last number I heard was more than 100 bills trying to tell people how to live their lives and yet they block a jobs bill meant to help veterans, and block a bill for equal pay for women. It just doesn't work.

I cannot and will not support a party that does not represent me. The Democrats do and are at least trying to make society a place where I can live. Under Republican leadership I won't even be able to use the bathroom safely...




Moonhead -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 8:02:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
This was the same fear they had when Clinton came to office.

And Carter.
And probably Kennedy and Johnson as well, come to that...




xBullx -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 8:54:09 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Mostly I think anyone who thinks Obama wants to or could change the US into some unrecognizable state has been watching too much FNC.

The President has an established track record and it is as a slightly left of center pragmatic politician. He most certainly is not a socialist or any oter flavor of extreme leftist.

So ultimately I think he'd like to reduce the big money influence on politics and take some steps to reinvigorate the middle class. Nothing even remtely radical.


I think it haughty of you to simply dismiss the opinions of nearly half of this country as the result of propaganda and theater. If that be the case it would be nearly impossible to defend your own position as anything other than the same.

The problem with the President’s track record is that what you see, the other half of this country does not and his track record is much too limited to indeed assess a solid understanding of just who he is. Therefore many of us do not see what he certainly is or is not.

I agree he’d like to reduce the present big money influences, but to me, from what I see he’s only altering the players and not the premise. And you’re right that isn’t radical, only four more years of politics of the norm.

My thread here was actually spawned by watching a movie this past weekend.

The chief concern I had with the President before I watched the movie 2016 was his spending habits, and it should be stated that it was just this weekend I watched this film. As I've stated a million times, I'm just as socially liberal as a good many of you. And while I don't agree with how Obama handles a fair amount of foreign policy, I have only a small degree of hope that Romney's policies might be better, and at that I'm counting on his selection for Secretary of State to demonstrate his intent to be a better man in this arena.

Now as I stated, I watched this movie this past weekend, I sincerely didn't want some way right propaganda piece to instill some false sense of political prejudice before I watched the debates, so I refrained from watching it until now. I had no idea what it was actually about. I was prepared for a bunch of fear mongering and rhetorical spin.

I was however rather surprised to see it was little more than one person’s examination of Obama’s past, his family/personal influences and the personal interpretations of Obama’s own writing by the producer. The film made a few future suggestions based on acquired information, but it wasn’t outrageous or hard to envision. The fact is, after I watched the film I wish they had been able to uncover a bit more information about the president that might also lend an understanding into his thinking. The film didn’t actually do anything to persuade me, but inspired me to a greater curiosity of this president, and even his challenger.

One amazing thing that struck me is that I finally understand, or at least I think I do; why Trump wants to see Obama’s transcripts. You see, I too have been training myself to be able to do my job since I was but a child, I even went back and viewed transcripts of my own as far back as junior high (my mother kept everything) to see what teachers had said about me and found teacher commentary referring to what was my obvious focus. These teachers were surprisingly accurate in just what I would become. You see, like a good many of us my interests, studies, associations and behavior were indeed focused that way.

So as the film pointed out we can tell a great deal about a person’s future by examining their past. This film was made by a conservative man and he confessed this at the films beginning; his views would obviously have some leaning in that direction, but knowing that I believe I was able to sort through any rhetoric that might exist.

I’d like to add one more thing to this reply; I don’t want America to change, only to improve. Obama has made improvements; of this I have no doubt. But, not everything he has done or claims he intends to do will be an improvement. I do hate that his opposition intends to minimize or berate nearly everything he has done for this country, but he and his supporters have brought a lot of this upon themselves as their actions are no different than those they castigate. Additionally his arrogance has since early on in his administration set forth an opposition that has sought to do nothing more than embarrass him as they feel he has done to them. Washington D.C. is powered on vengeance.

Genuine Leadership is the art of influencing others to work together in order to achieve a common goal. It should not simply be the act of dictating directive and measure.




xBullx -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 8:55:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx


This is an honest question. I'm not trying to bash the President, but what is his earnst intentions for America. I'm not Romneys biggest supporter, but I have a sincere fear that no matter how Industrial Romney might be, Obama seems to have every intention of making this country something we may not recognize nor be able too support.

For those of you that fear world war with Romeny, I'm not sure that we shouldn't be concerned with civil war under Obama.

What is it that most of you invision for our country if Obama were to achieve re-election?

Please try to answer sincerely without all the smart-ass comments, name calling and rhetorical talking points...




Try stealing the election and you may well see a civil war  .......a shooting war....


Be careful what you wish for 59.




xBullx -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 8:58:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

I see, ideally, a country with:

- A recovered economy
- All Americans having access to quality health care
- Our soldiers out of Iraq
- No war with Iran (unless they start it)
- Good relationships with other countries
- A positive image of the US around the world
- An end to our dependence on foreign oil
- A decreased deficit
- More affordable higher education
- PBS continuing to provide quality pre-K education
- Our progressive tax system continuing to exist
- Continuing to not torture our POWs
- An end to DOMA
- Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell not being reinstated

If some people in this country want to try to secede from the Union over this.... um, I guess they can try? I'm really not too worried about that.


Thank you for a sincere reply....




xBullx -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:03:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

If you don't want smart remarks, why exaggerate so speciously?
Seriously, unless you're indicating the Tea Party is likely to resort to violence, I think claims that there might be a civil war, are alarmist and completely unfounded.



We obviously walk in different circles.

But it's important to consider this. Wars are not always waged on the battlefield where the blood of men might fertilize the ground.

Frankly Gal, I believe we are already at war, declared or otherwise. How often do you witness compromise that isn't purchased?




xBullx -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:10:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

I'm far more worried about continuing the recent transformation of America the Right Wing is promoting. The acceleration of the concentration of wealth, already more top loaded than a number of South American countries, something unthinkable till recently. And the growing control of politics by large corporations who financially support 'family values' candidates who then vote in the interests of Big Business to the detriment of the working and individual entrepreneur classes. Rome fell as much from the influential/wealthy families who ran the Senate excluding all their lands (The only tax base at the time) from taxes as anything else. Modern computer trading on Wall Street promises to eventually have almost all the wealth of the land held by major institutions and their owners. This is a more potent danger than Muslim extremists! The segments of society that build wealth with manufacturing and services have no hope of competing with this 'economic manipulation at digital electronic speed' Capitalism.
Most of all, Far better Tax and Spend "Liberals" than Don't tax and Do spend 'Conservatives'. Mislabeling at it's most egregious? Look at the talk he doesn't walk from Lyin' Ryan. A typical pork barrel politician for his district but a budget cutting speech maker.
Anyone who passed middle school should be insulted by the arithmetic of the Romney prescription for fiscal responsibility. Defense and Entitlements are by far the majority of the budget. Not touching or even increasing them, not taxing the actual rich and still balancing the budget? WHO believes this? Despite Obama failing to keep all the promises his opponents made for him, his track record in fact is clear and quite within the tradition of centerist American politics. We have no idea which of the many faces Romney showed would be the basis for White House policy. His presentation was continually changed for the audience or any poor reception of the previous speech/recommendation. Romney is for change, changing his policy each week? And as good at revising his history as any politburo Russian or Chinese party functionary.
Look at their history. Obama came in with an agenda (Mostly long term sustainability of the society in basic energy and infrastructure/education and a realistic, fair safety net/health system to maintain a quality of life most of America could enjoy and expect to bequeath to their children.) and has consistently worked for consensus for achieving those goals. Romney was a 'red dog Republican' governor, as liberal as one has been lately, but in campaign wears Tea Party or neo-con costume as easily as any other. He moved to the right better than his opponents during the primaries and now is moving away from those positions faster than his Democrat opponents can target each absurdity. Do we need an escape/makeup artist for chief executive? I'd prefer someone who actually understands the current and long term problems of our country, technological culture and planet and works honestly to solve as many as humanly possible. Despite my many differences with Obama (Medical marijuana for starters!) I can't believe anyone is so blinded by ideology to see how hollow the proposals and criticisms are of the RNC and it's allies are and how dangerous those positions and prescriptions are for any society that intends to continue into the future. And how dishonest so many of the positions are once one examines the past practices of those proponents in recent history. Not saying I like Democrats, but at least they aren't Republicans.


Thank you very much for your response. Your points on Obama are some I am weighing. However in this thread I'm really only concerned with Obama and what a second term of his would represent. Mr. Romney and all the filibuster about him is irrelevant to our objectives here. Please don’t allow your contempt for Romney to distract you from any hidden or at least undiscussed truths about Obama.




xBullx -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:13:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx


This is an honest question. I'm not trying to bash the President, but what is his earnst intentions for America. I'm not Romneys biggest supporter, but I have a sincere fear that no matter how Industrial Romney might be, Obama seems to have every intention of making this country something we may not recognize nor be able too support.

For those of you that fear world war with Romeny, I'm not sure that we shouldn't be concerned with civil war under Obama.

What is it that most of you invision for our country if Obama were to achieve re-election?

Please try to answer sincerely without all the smart-ass comments, name calling and rhetorical talking points...



Try stealing the election and you may well see a civil war .......a shooting war....




[image]local://upfiles/1488921/2D1D6F99E8784E0F99F371975D0C5C02.jpg[/image]



Gal, exactly how old are you?

If you don't wish to impart constructive discussion I understand, but at that, I'd only ask that you avoid my thread and please consider it to be not worth your time.

Happy Halloween!




mnottertail -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:16:26 AM)

My thought is that Romney, et al... is wanting to make this country something we cannot support.

Obama can slow it down.  I am not voting for either.  I don't like what is on the cart.




atursvcMaam -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:17:30 AM)

The 111th congress (2008 to 2010) consisted of a Senate with 57 Democrats, 2 independents that swung democrat most of the time, and 41 republicans, 261 democrat congressmen vs 182 republicans. That covers Mr. Obama's first 2 years. I am not rewriting history.
http://www.senate.gov/CRSReports/crs-publish.cfm?pid=%260BL)PL%3B%3D%0A
I might have been 1 Senator off, but at 57 plus 2 only one republican has to be swung to force a cloture vote. Arlan Specter was a good push for that. There were a few other flexible republicans.
As for the "details later"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACbwND52rrw
as for car companies
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fisker-build-electric-cars-us/story?id=16458585
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/10/us-generalmotors-autos-volt-idUSBRE88904J20120910
and green energy initiatives, see above and
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/solyndra-solar-company-fails-after-getting-controversial-federal-loan-guarantees/2011/08/31/gIQAB8IRsJ_story.html
and other shoveled under shovel ready jobs.
The thought process is not working.




mnottertail -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:22:26 AM)

Hardly filibuster proof, thanks for demonstrating that factless rhetoric leads to factless conclusions..   




xBullx -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:25:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk


I could list a bunch of policy things that should and will be accomplished with a second term. However, at the core of his message and what he wants to do is to reunite America. To bring us together as a people. That, though, we have difference our similarities are much greater. To have us stop hating each other. Realizing again that we are all Americans. We are all in this together and we should treat one another a whole lot better than we are today.



You have no idea, that if he were to win, how much I am hoping you're right. It is the premise I held entering his first term. I am however disappointed in the results of the mutual bonding efforts, assuming there actually were some.

I have to admit, that sadly I even feel a greater seperation with close friends of mine that hold more liberal views than I. Trust, me I examine these feelings all the time, I personally don't want to be consumed with petty conflict and misgivings, for anyone.

As to your points above, it's great political rhetoric, but if you sat in my chair, looked through my eyes I am hopeful you'd understand my reservations a little better.

But I hope you see that I am trying desperately working to see America and Obama through your eyes.




servantforuse -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:28:02 AM)

How can a country move forward being 16 trillion in debt and growing ?




xBullx -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:30:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

1. I expect to see the modest economic recovery gain strength. Not due to Obama's policies, but due to timing. If Romney gets elected, the same recovery would happen unless Romney channels Bush and gives more tax cuts.
2. Foreign policy will stay similar. More pressure on Iran to sit down at the table.
3. Withdrawal from Afghanistan, with bloodbath to follow. No more putting it off.

The thing I cannot predict is whether the dysfunction between Congress and the White House will improve. I hope so.


Thank You Steven...




mnottertail -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:31:46 AM)

They won't by lowering taxes increasing military, and shipping jobs overseas, and continue borrowing and spending like they have.   One thing that has bothered me as of late is saying well, we will take the savings from Iraq and................

We haven't paid for Iraq, not a fucking dime.




xBullx -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:36:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

You know, I have multiple friends who are part of a group of friends who are all die hard republicans. Their biggest fear is that Obama and the Democrats are somehow going to sell America out to the UN as part of a grand plan to disarm Americans and make us more like Europe. That UN troops are going to end up on the streets of America confiscating guns...[8|]

This was the same fear they had when Clinton came to office.

I don't know where in the world they get such notions. It is completely whack to me.

Otherwise completely intelligent people, living life with an incredibly negative and fear-based world view. It makes me sad because it is really hard to be around them when a primary part of what binds them together as friends is fear and hate - of government, of fictional welfare queens, of Mexicans doing all the jobs they would never consent to do in a thousand years, of socialism, of Muslims...

As for what I would like to see out of a second Obama administration, graceadieu's list is very much it. I want to see the power shifted from corporations to living and breathing American people. I want to see GBLT Americans enjoy the same rights as every other citizen in this country. I want to see women given full rights of choice over their own bodies and I want Government to support their decisions. I want to see my tax dollars used here to implement healthcare for Americans, further education, build roads and schools, raise pay of teachers and policemen, and generally help America and American citizens - rather than fighting another foreign war over oil and implementing fiscal policies that have not worked since Reagan tried them unsuccessfully.

I believe Obama has at least part of this vision and he is really trying to help. I believe he is a good man with a good vision of America - not a partisan religious battleground like the Republican leadership seem to see it - "It is not enough that I win, but you must lose." attitude. America gets no where with that sort of attitude and the Republican Leadership embodies that right now.

Most of all, I want a Government that will not legislate against who I am at the core of my being. Democrats are at least embracing part of that and writing support for people like me into their platforms. Republicans are not and are actively engaged in legislating against who I, and many of my friends, are as people.



The point in this thread isn't in seeking your directives or slams of the opposition, but rather what you earnestly think America will look like or what is it that Obama will do, create and foster if given 4 more years.




xBullx -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:39:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

question really is, if he is able to do all that he promises, why hasn't he? what has he been waiting for? He probably won't get a favorable congress, and has already worn out the "It was Bush's fault". Calling ia a racist thing isn't going to get much better or worse over the next four years, and threats from either side seem kind of ridiculous. I am not impressed with Mr Obama's presidency. My only reason to vote for Romney, is that he isn't Mr. Obama. A number of my acquantances voted for Mr Obama because "He isn't Bush.


Please don't waste your time bashing Obama on the past 4, define just what you think the next 4 would be like. Again build a case for your comments in order to support your logic.

Thank you.




xBullx -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:41:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

quote:

"It is not enough that I win, but you must lose."


For me, the answer to your question of why President Obama has not been more successful than he has been lies in the Republican total defiance at all costs attitude. I believe that the Republicans have opposed things the President was trying to do, not because they felt it was bad for America, but because the idea came from a Democrat and they were intent on opposing Obama - even to the detriment of America. Block and blame has been the Republican strategy for the past 4 years - even when the legislation in question might actually be good for America and Americans.


Stay focused on the future, you know the "Forward" part of the message.




xBullx -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:45:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

Half of that (His first 2 years) he had a fillibuster proof congress. He used that to put in place a batch of legislation for a "sign it and we will hammer out the details later" health program that looks to be a very expensive proposition. Yes it helped a few million that could not (and much more quietly a different equal sized segment that did not want to) help themselves. He also ordered an assasination, and bought the country a car company. and invested in several very exciting developers of alternate fuel systems that have had some difficulties in turning green ideas into job creating, environmental issue solving and tax generating profit centers. sorry, I know that profit is a curse word. Most companies would fire someone with this kind of track record. It is my predecessor's fault only works for a while, and while the race thing will work for a bit and garner sympathy, it does not guarantee or even suggest a contract renewal.



quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:


Half of that (His first 2 years) he had a fillibuster proof congress.


Please wait a little before you rewrite history, those years being so close, your lie is uncovered out of hand, if it is not a knowing lie, then it is certainly an extremely untutored one, and I suspect you cannot credibly cite this extraordinary claim. Since it did not happen.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Someone has forgotton that thru illness and death, they most certainly didnt have the 60 vote margin they needed.
And there most certainly were filibusters.
Sheesh, rewriting history should be plausible .....not easily debunked with FACT


Again, please focus on the next 4 and looking forward. While you're all doing that, I'll keep an eye on Lucy's rear.




mnottertail -> RE: Forward? (10/29/2012 9:53:09 AM)

I see a steadily improving (but very slow) economy.   I see the house and senate pretty much made up like it is today, nothing here nor there in terms of big changes.

So we will limp along, and I think that Obama will issue more exectutive orders for vexing problems and emergency situations since we really dont have a legislature down there.   




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