Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness Page: <<   < prev  11 12 13 [14] 15   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/7/2012 4:05:51 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

That's great Dusky.  The only problem is that if you lived here, unless you had it all packed into a covered truck and evacuated, it would all be under water and destroyed.



The usual containers for everything Dusky mentioned are entirely or almost entirely waterproof. No different than more than half the standard items bought off the grocery shelves.

Unless you're trying to tell us that all the cans of soup previously stocked in cupboards in NJ are completely destroyed now.

I think I'm starting to see the problem here.


Actually, you are NOT seeing the problem.  Whatever these people had in preparation for the storm was taken out in the flood, so they no longer have it.  Is that clear enough for you?  Maybe you need to look at some of the pictures available ALL OVER the internet.

Me?  My canned and dry goods were fine.  I had plenty of candles/flashlights.  Lost stuff in the fridge/freezer since I had no power for a week, but I didn't have my house flooded or destroyed.  I was lucky, and have stated that multiple times. 

So since you STILL don't get it, all the preparation in the world doesn't do a damn bit of good if you are flooded out in an area where you can reasonably expect not to be flooded out. 

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 261
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/7/2012 4:25:03 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I'm right there with you marie. 


Ha! Did you and I just agree on something? This is front page news!!


I don't honestly recall some wild history of disagreement between us.  But I am getting old and forget things, lol.

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 262
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/7/2012 8:03:37 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I'm right there with you marie. 


Ha! Did you and I just agree on something? This is front page news!!


Marie2, I am glad to see you on here. You and Aileen were two of the first people that came to mind.

I wish I had more to offer all of you.


Thanks LaT :)

I was one of the fortunate ones, I'm in South Jersey...Outside of Philly. Downed trees and some temporary loss of power around here, but no damage to my home.

It was much worse for those more Northern (NJ and NYC areas), and of course those closer to the coast. I have friends and family up there who are staying with other friends because they're still without power etc. But they're pulling through it. I really feel for those who have to start over from scratch because they lost everything they had.

I guess mother nature can be a mother fucker.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 263
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/8/2012 7:17:24 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx



Your semantic arguement


Said by the king of the nitpicking semantic argument.


Would you have any validation for this moronic post?

quote:

You made a claim, it was a lie.


Perhaps a dictionary would disabuse you of your ignorance of the meaning of the word lie?

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 264
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/8/2012 7:19:13 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx



This is a picture of a "fully equipped hospital ship" as you stated that Cuba offered to the US\






How many doctors on that boat?

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 265
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/8/2012 7:24:18 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx



This is a picture of a doctor with a backpack. Cuba was offering 1500 odd of these to us and the air transport was going to be supplied by Gulfstream Airways out of Florida.
Even you should be able to tell the difference.


Perhaps your post would seem less disingenuous if you had posted a pic of 1586 doctors instead of one
quote:

Face it. You lied and got caught and now you're twisting in the wind.


Face it you have no clue what the word lie means.





(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 266
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/8/2012 1:06:37 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx



This is a picture of a doctor with a backpack. Cuba was offering 1500 odd of these to us and the air transport was going to be supplied by Gulfstream Airways out of Florida.
Even you should be able to tell the difference.


Perhaps your post would seem less disingenuous if you had posted a pic of 1586 doctors instead of one
quote:

Face it. You lied and got caught and now you're twisting in the wind.


Face it you have no clue what the word lie means.






Perhaps your post would be less of a lie if you had not said "Has the current president refused a fully equiped hospital ship from cuba as the previous administration did after katrina? "

A lie is a deliberate untruth.

I have proven that you spoke untruly.

The only question is whether you did it deliberately or out of ignorance.


_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 267
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/8/2012 2:12:53 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		FR ~

I feel for those that have lost a lot of their stuff and even their homes in some areas of the Eastern Seaboard.

But I have a serious question for someone over the pond.....
Before that, I will state that I lived in the US in various areas, mostly FL and a few other places, for just over 8 months (not as a tourist either) and I'd like to make a few comparisons of my observations:

The majority of our homes are double-skinned brick or breeze/concrete block construction with concrete tile or slate roofs. In the US they seem to be predominantly nothing more than a glorified wooden shed - a wooden frame nailed together with wooden/dry-wall partition walls and plywood roofs with shingle covering.

Our traffic lights are on steel poles concreted into the pavement and served by underground electrical power. A lot of places in the US seem to have them hanging on a piece of wire strung between buildings.

Our telephone poles are a foot thick and have been marinaded in creosote and other wood preservatives for 20+ years before they are used in the streets to support a few power transformers (for very tiny hamlets) and telephone lines - very few power lines are supported on poles; they are usually on big tall steel pylons for overland or burried underground in towns and cities. In the US these poles seem to be very thin (some are no more than glorified twigs) and don't seem to be well preserved yet they often carry power lines as well as phone lines.

For those of us over here that have A/C units that aren't of the portable type, they are usually on the ground and cemented in or securely bolted to a very sturdy solid wall or the really big ones mounted on the roof - never mounted in a window frame. In the US I saw many A/C units mounted in flimsy window frames or screwed onto a wooden wall.


We still get hurricane-strength winds of 90+mph and torrents of rain enough to cause severe flooding in some areas - heck, this summer was the wettest since records began!
We have seen on the news that floods are bad enough to float cars and caravans (mobile homes to you) down the main roads.
That said, the vast majority of our homes don't get raised to the ground like we see with regular monotony in the US on ABC/BBC news. We might have to replace a few slates/tiles on the roof or repair a chimney stack. Unless a tree has crashed through the building we rarely have to completely rebuild our homes yet in the US, your matchstick garden sheds have to be cleared away and completely re-built virtually every time there is a bad storm or tornado.


So my question is.... why oh WHY, do you perpetually rebuild homes etc in exactly the same way that always fails when the next nasty storm arrives???? I am really puzzled by this as I would have thought people would have learned by now that it's a waste of time/energy/money/resources to keep doing it.

The whole thing reminds me of the tale of the three little pigs.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 268
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/8/2012 2:16:33 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx



This is a picture of a doctor with a backpack. Cuba was offering 1500 odd of these to us and the air transport was going to be supplied by Gulfstream Airways out of Florida.
Even you should be able to tell the difference.


Perhaps your post would seem less disingenuous if you had posted a pic of 1586 doctors instead of one
quote:

Face it. You lied and got caught and now you're twisting in the wind.


Face it you have no clue what the word lie means.






quote:

Perhaps your post would be less of a lie if you had not said "Has the current president refused a fully equiped hospital ship from cuba as the previous administration did after katrina? "


Perhaps you did not notice the question mark in that sentence.

quote:

A lie is a deliberate untruth.

I have proven that you spoke untruly.

The only question is whether you did it deliberately or out of ignorance.


Pretty clear that it was ignorance since I was the one who pointed out that it was doctors and medical supplies that were offered when you pointed out that cuba does not have a hospital ship.
Remember also that the thrust of the post was that the u.s., who could have used the help,refused to accept the offer.
From what I have been able to find on the net, cuba has not offered any help in the aftermath of sandy since cuba took a pretty good hit from sandy also,but it apppears that the u.s. has offered help to cuba...which most likely will be turned down as have previous offers. Understandable in the case of cuba whom the u.s. has invaded and sent numerous assasins after castro and committed numerous acts of terrorism against cuba.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 269
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/8/2012 3:46:29 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

The majority of our homes are double-skinned brick or breeze/concrete block construction with concrete tile or slate roofs. In the US they seem to be predominantly nothing more than a glorified wooden shed - a wooden frame nailed together with wooden/dry-wall partition walls and plywood roofs with shingle covering.

In south Florida homes are built with concrete block walls on poured concrete slab. The undergirding of the roof is tied down with steel straps to concrete columns fortified by steel bars embedded in the foundation. When H.Andrew hit those structures were blown away. The weakness was the design of the wooden roof which allowed 130 mph wind to enter beneath the eaves and tear the house apart. The design has been changed. Whether the new design will hold up is for the future to tell.

In NJ homes are constructed of wood frame, as you say. Mostly the damage from H.Sandy was from the unfortunate surge of ocean at high tide, although there was a lot of inland flooding from swollen rivers as well.

Why are homes in NJ constructed of wood frame while homes in Florida are constructed from concrete blocks? Availability of materials I would guess. Lots of mud down here, not many forests. So, cheaper to build from concrete. Whereas in NJ there is closer access to forests. In Maine for example.

Do you have ready access to wood in the UK? Do you have many homes built near beaches or on barrier islands? Correct me please, but I think the answer is no to both of those questions.

I hope that gives you some partial answers to your questions. Others can undoubtedly supply more information.


(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 270
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/8/2012 9:35:50 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx



You said "Has the current president refused a fully equiped hospital ship from cuba as the previous administration did after katrina? "

there was no ship

You lied.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 271
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/8/2012 10:07:49 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

The majority of our homes are double-skinned brick or breeze/concrete block construction with concrete tile or slate roofs. In the US they seem to be predominantly nothing more than a glorified wooden shed - a wooden frame nailed together with wooden/dry-wall partition walls and plywood roofs with shingle covering.

In south Florida homes are built with concrete block walls on poured concrete slab. The undergirding of the roof is tied down with steel straps to concrete columns fortified by steel bars embedded in the foundation. When H.Andrew hit those structures were blown away. The weakness was the design of the wooden roof which allowed 130 mph wind to enter beneath the eaves and tear the house apart. The design has been changed. Whether the new design will hold up is for the future to tell.

In NJ homes are constructed of wood frame, as you say. Mostly the damage from H.Sandy was from the unfortunate surge of ocean at high tide, although there was a lot of inland flooding from swollen rivers as well.

Why are homes in NJ constructed of wood frame while homes in Florida are constructed from concrete blocks? Availability of materials I would guess. Lots of mud down here, not many forests. So, cheaper to build from concrete. Whereas in NJ there is closer access to forests. In Maine for example.

Do you have ready access to wood in the UK? Do you have many homes built near beaches or on barrier islands? Correct me please, but I think the answer is no to both of those questions.

I hope that gives you some partial answers to your questions. Others can undoubtedly supply more information.




I didn't see many concrete constructions in FL although I didn't venture much further south than Tampa. Unless it was a high-rise of more then 4 stories, pretty much of what I encountered in Gainsville, Jax & around Tampa were certainly garden sheds - including every home and neighbourhood I stayed at.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Do you have ready access to wood in the UK? Do you have many homes built near beaches or on barrier islands? Correct me please, but I think the answer is no to both of those questions.


We have many many homes built on or near beaches (we have an awful lot of Victorian seaside towns) and we have quite a lot of woodland to get timber from and we also import a lot of building timer too (we use that to make floorboards or build sheds and fences with). We also build on a lot of recalimed land.
Even with all this, we still build our homes from brick or concrete block because it makes sense not to build timber-constructed homes - us Brits do not expect to find homes built like a glorified garden shed.
Quite simply, they aren't strong enough and aren't durable enough. Quite often, you can't get a mortgage or insurance on those few homes that are built as a timber-frame construction (yes, there are the odd few).

That's why I'm very puzzled.

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 11/8/2012 10:08:50 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 272
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/9/2012 6:00:40 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx



You said "Has the current president refused a fully equiped hospital ship from cuba as the previous administration did after katrina? "

there was no ship

You lied.


Please acquire a dictionary and disabuse yourself of your ignorace.
I would like to thank you though for pointing out that it was not a converted oil tanker with about 50 doctors but instead an offer more doctors than thirty hospital ships.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 273
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/9/2012 6:31:54 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

That's why I'm very puzzled.

dwarf;
here are some answers for you. Sorry, this is the best I can do

Wood houses

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 274
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/9/2012 7:46:46 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		Thanks for that vincent.

I did have a read but I still don't understand the logic.

That article states at the end "To sum it up, on average people no matter what country they live in will do what is the most convenient and cost effective to do. In the US that includes that houses are framed-in with wood.".
Persistently persuing a philosophy which is doomed to failure is still beyond my comprehension.
There are places around the world, such as the scandinavian areas, that do build wooden constructions. They do that because there aren't many natural resources for brick or concrete, the landscape is dense with woodland and their building designs are much sturdier than those that I've seen in the US. They also don't suffer such raging storms and floods like a lot of other places so in that regard, it makes sense for them to build wooden homes in the style that they do.

As I said before, we have ample resources to build wooden homes if we wanted to, but we don't. Why? Because they fail miserably in extremely bad weather. So the author of that piece saying it is illogical to compare the older buildings of typical Europe to newer (and in my opinion, very inferior) wooden homes just doesn't ring true. We still choose to build new homes with brick and concrete rather than thrown-up glorified garden sheds.
And of course there is the insurance payouts for loss of home as well as 99% of total loss of posessions - and that puts the price of insurance up.
Add that to the cost of clearing the debris and completely rebuilding the home (and it really isn't much cheaper than brick or concrete), it does seem a futile waste. Given that the US has more raw brick and concrete resources per person than anything like our small island has, it does seriously beg the question.

I've seen wooden houses being constructed in the US both on TV and in RL and sure, they can throw a house together in a matter of weeks compared to months if made from brick. From that PoV it rehouses more people in a shorter time frame after a disaster. But.... it's all a waste of time and resources if you have to start from square one all over again fairly quickly when the next nasty comes along. And, FWIW, you can repair a roof or a chimney stack in a few days and make the home habitable - without some herculean effort and a lot of people, you can't do that if you have to clear debris and completely rebuild from the ground up. Also, most non-wooden constructions don't get washed away with storm surges and floods. You might have to re-plaster the walls to make them look pretty again but that doesn't detract from whether they are habitable or not.
Over here, in recent years where certain areas are prone to constantly flooding, most of the insurance companies won't insure your home against flood damage unless you have taken some quite extensive (and often very expensive) steps to prevent it and even then there's no guarantee you can get insurance.

The only thing I can think of is that the US, where they continually rebuild these garden sheds, take a much shorter view than playing the long game. I guess it also keeps the lumber yards and house-erectors busy perpetually having to rebuild homes. Brick/concrete homes just need to dry out and most of the electrics are just fine. Wooden houses that have been raised to the ground or hurled into the air by strong winds have often ripped out the cables and need to be re-wired safely back into the grid - that also takes time and money. And whilst there are houses (or destroyed plots) that are in this unsafe state, the power companies can't restore power to those that survived so even more people are without power for a longer period.

I don't envy those that have lost their home though - it's very sad and frustrating for those involved.


The bottom lines is - I'm still very perplexed as to why many areas of the US still persue this short-sighted way of doing things.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 275
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/9/2012 3:44:32 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Dwarf . . .
America and Canada built predominantly with wood even before the mass production methods you witnessed in Florida. There are brick homes and concrete block homes, but by far wood is the choice, and has been the choice since Europeans settled here and cleared the forests.

America and Canada are vast areas. You presume too much when you dwell on the temporary nature of wood frame homes. You need to get out through the NorthEast and MidWest to see many homes that were built in the 19th C like the lovely Queen Anne in the attached photo.

I lived in a wood frame home the first half of my life in NJ. It was weird to move to a concrete block home in Florida. Somehow, woodframe is a more comfortable living place. I cannot explain it. Woodframe homes have a charm lacking in other materials. Here is a bit of propaganda on the subject, however.
why wood frame

Concrete is favored in the Ft Lauderdale region because it holds air-conditioning more efficiently, I think.

This is the best I can do. I am not an expert on the topic.

I hope you enjoyed Florida. Come back and visit us again.

ciao




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/9/2012 3:46:37 PM >

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 276
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/9/2012 4:05:59 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		I would agree that is indeed a very nice looking house.
But the bottom line is - it's still no more than a glorified shed.
And I suspect it's still standing because it hasn't been subject to real nasty storms you get over there.

And whilst I fully agree, the settlers would have used the wood they cleared from the forests to make the initial build, once it was realised that it got flattened, rebuilt, then flattened again with the next storm, I would have thought twice about rebuilding with wood again. Either that, or make sure they used better construction methods with newer homes so they don't get trashed again.

I have spent 8 months living in wooden homes in FL and other areas in the US and various other places around Europe and I don't agree that it feels a more comfortable living space at all - with the exception of Norway and the northern part of Sweden where I lived in lovely log cabins built with real solid hefty logs.
If you want wood - clad it onto a solid wall or use much thicker and more solid timber. All the benefits and none of the drawbacks. Seems simple to me.
I like the idea that my home won't blow away in the next nasty gust of wind or get floated away in the next storm surge. But that's just me I guess.

The point of my question is, why do some areas of the US persist in building in such a flimsy way that's basically uneconomical and wasteful.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 277
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/9/2012 6:08:32 PM   
slutbiboyforuse


Posts: 8
Joined: 1/12/2011
Status: offline 		unfortunately, i here no talk of actually getting off the grid.

this way when the power goes out you have at least good back up.

I am on the grid, what people need to realize is that the whole movement of electrons thing is a priveledge not a right, believe it or not we got through many centuries without it.

As for generators, if you have money and natural gas, get a natural gas generator to power a ups to power the home. What sucks is having gas heat but no power to start the fire.

Diesel generators are great 5 gallons could last 3-4 days with constant use. and is much safer to store.

Seriously though i work in the utility business and the gris is pretty pathetic. basically twigs carrying major transimission lines to sub stations. Especially on LI where i just got done working, its crazy how oblivious to the voltages running through their backyards on rotten poles

I have to say People on LI are rude, condescending, little pricks and thats on a good day. Getting gas during rush hour is a mission. Some of the most senseless people on the planet. Cant imagine how they are dealing with this. Generally the whole area is full of drama queens. NJs problem wasnt the wood construction, which can withstand more than you think, it was the floodwaters.

Lots and lots of people are homeless, not without power or heat or gas for their cars, but completely homeless in the cold, suddenly. How do you prepare for that?

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 278
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/9/2012 11:23:05 PM   
Silentrunner26


Posts: 424
Joined: 7/15/2009
Status: offline 		I feel for the people up north who had to go through Sandy . Having said that lets face facts . For those of us down south what hit you was just a hard rain for us . We get stuff like that all year long . Just be happy the eye never got near land . If you think you have it bad just remember you got help right away New Orleans had to wait a week before anyone was let in . Bad weather happens to all of us be it rain snow or sun . You think you have it bad but it could have been worse I have seen a hurricane dance around Houston for 2 days before moving on . I could have been so much worse than it was . Just remember that your free US citizens and you have the right to bitch yell and cuss all you want but it will only help your blood pressure doing it and not the gas lines .

(in reply to slutbiboyforuse)
Profile   Post #: 279
RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness - 11/9/2012 11:30:24 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		It's a good question, but then people still live in the shadow of Vesuvius - it's simple: people are complacent, same reason people still live in flood zones in the midwest - it's real nice property when it ain't underwater.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 280
Page:   <<   < prev  11 12 13 [14] 15   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Individual Responsibilities for Storm Preparedness Page: <<   < prev  11 12 13 [14] 15   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.111