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RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 10:36:28 AM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Where is the cost savings?


I'm not a health expert, so I can't tell you where the cost savings are so deftly hidden, but, being that the US' health care system is ~ 50% more costly than the next highest-cost systems, and looking at the rest of the chart, it appears as though there are around 30 other OECD countries that might let us in on the secret, if we're nice to them.

Oh, I forgot, we don't to that.

The biggest badass doesn't need to be nice.

There are much more comprehensive assortments of charts that also show that health outcomes are also higher in most other countries, all of them having some form or another of single-payer system., charts which I've presented at least six times in these discussions.

You obviously didn't read or were unable to comprehend them on those occasions, so the above link was the simplest version I could find.



(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 10:57:49 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

How so if people don't want to be GPs or OB/GYNs anymore?


I'm sorry, but you're going to have to run that by me one more time, slowly and clearly, because I'm unable to make sense of it, no doubt a failing on my part. It obviously makes sense to you, so please share.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to searching4mysir)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 11:06:22 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Tazzy If a person is working 40 hr a week and has a healthcare benefit and is then reduced to 30 hrs per week so the employer doesn't have to pay for the benefit, then the employee looses 10 hrs a week pay plus he is required by Obama care to pay for his/her health insurance. I just looked at what mine would cost from my former employer. Is $822 a month. My former employer is a govt entity in CA with approximately 3500 employees. I opted out of having to pay for that entities healthcare and made other arrangements. At that I still have to pay health insurance costs even tho my alternate is a different govt entity. Yes I am retired from 2 different govt entities.

BTW my retirement from the former entity is only about $15 more than the cost of health insurance so I would have to survive on $15 a month if that were my only income.


I rememer you braging about joining the army and making it a carrear because you knew you were at high risk for diabites and that was your way of makng sure your health care would be taken care of for life.

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 11:13:21 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
I will ask you again. Why do you hate and mistrust your fellow countrymen so much. Why not just move.


quote:

Why do you hate what this country was/is and desire to change it to something else?


Your post indicate a poorly informed understanding as to what this country was or is or what changes the constitution provides for.
quote:


You can hardly be said to love it.


Your post seem to reflect a lack of love for this country and a total infatuation with corporate welfare...why come?
quote:

Like a bride at her wedding thinking "Aisle Alter Him". If you love something enough, why would you want to change it?



Perhaps because the corporate punkass motherfuckers and those who sing their praises have stated on more than one occasion that the constitution "is just a fucking piece of paper" and have had it perforated so it an be used as shit paper.


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 11/6/2012 11:20:17 AM >

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 11:20:30 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		The ancient Greeks had a saying: if you want to be great, live in a great city-state.

These days, we don't have city-states, we have nations, and a lot of Americans could stand to ponder that particular piece of wisdom.

Greatness, like minimal government and minimal government interference, always starts with the combination of freedom, live and let live values, good education, strong welfare and universalized healthcare. Sorry, but I'm not going to run through the line of reasoning behind it. Even my superficial thoughts would take a whole dissertation to get that across, and I'm not up for one. Instead, I'll let the outcomes speak for themselves in ten to twenty years time.

Anyone that wants to be prepared for the future should entertain the notion and consider it carefully.

The rest can take comfort that I'm not much for saying "told you so" ...

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 11:26:31 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

OH, what hyperbole we spew when we wave our rag and do the teabagger jingo shuffle.

Much like you would attempt to change a drug addicted son or daughter or mother or father you love, Yachtie.  

Don't run down the patriotic smegma route.  The ineptitude is overwhelming.   



Yeah, and the left has so drugged this country on its entitlement / nanny state mentality. Keep feeding it more of your drugs dude.

You're pimping for America.


So are you against corporate welfare/entitlement?

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 11:28:18 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

It's their health on the line now. What will be different?


Availability and quality go up.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




How so if people don't want to be GPs or OB/GYNs anymore?


Are you saying that all med school graduates do not wish to be gp,ob/gyn?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 11/6/2012 11:33:19 AM >

(in reply to searching4mysir)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 11:32:12 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

The ancient Greeks had a saying: if you want to be great, live in a great city-state.

These days, we don't have city-states, we have nations, and a lot of Americans could stand to ponder that particular piece of wisdom.

Greatness, like minimal government and minimal government interference, always starts with the combination of freedom, live and let live values, good education, strong welfare and universalized healthcare. Sorry, but I'm not going to run through the line of reasoning behind it. Even my superficial thoughts would take a whole dissertation to get that across, and I'm not up for one. Instead, I'll let the outcomes speak for themselves in ten to twenty years time.

Anyone that wants to be prepared for the future should entertain the notion and consider it carefully.


Well said

quote:

The rest can take comfort that I'm not much for saying "told you so" ...

IWYW,
— Aswad.


This would be one of the few things on which you and I disagree.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 12:20:38 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

OH, what hyperbole we spew when we wave our rag and do the teabagger jingo shuffle.

Much like you would attempt to change a drug addicted son or daughter or mother or father you love, Yachtie.  

Don't run down the patriotic smegma route.  The ineptitude is overwhelming.   



Yeah, and the left has so drugged this country on its entitlement / nanny state mentality. Keep feeding it more of your drugs dude.

You're pimping for America.


So are you against corporate welfare/entitlement?



Whatever you do, don't point out to him that half the European countries out-produce the US on a per capita basis, likewise have positive national savings (unlike US), or that Germany, with ~27% of the population of the US, and ~ 1/4 total GDP, surpasses in total (not per capita) exports ~ two out of every three years, with 2/3 of all workers covered by a collective bargaining agreement, single-payer universal healthcare, double (or more) the gas ('Benzin') prices, decent to excellent public transportation across the country, higher education cost affordable by almost all without resort to the PITA 'grant' process and/or usurious student loans, higher individual taxes (which is why Germany and all other EU countries have lower corporate tax, along with the fact of much having fewer loopholes), and a so-called 'conservative' Chancellor (Bundeskanzlerin) that US politicos would recognize as the commie bitch she almost certainly is ...

You know, all those things they tell us will drive this country to slavery.

Almost forgot to mention; 5 weeks paid vacation, and they still economically and socially kick our ass.

Heaven forbid we emulate anything Germany or the Scandinavian countries are doing. Too much sense is a scary thought here.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/6/2012 12:52:05 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 2:26:09 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

It's their health on the line now. What will be different?


Availability and quality go up.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




How so if people don't want to be GPs or OB/GYNs anymore?


According to this... http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1012370

Neurosurgeons, Thoracic/Cardiovascular surgeons and General Surgeons have far more medical malpratice suits.

GPs are being paid more.

OB/GYN as a field isnt seeing a massive shortage.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to searching4mysir)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 2:32:05 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

It's their health on the line now. What will be different?


Availability and quality go up.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




How so if people don't want to be GPs or OB/GYNs anymore?


According to this... http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1012370

Neurosurgeons, Thoracic/Cardiovascular surgeons and General Surgeons have far more medical malpratice suits.

GPs are being paid more.

OB/GYN as a field isnt seeing a massive shortage.


Makes you wonder how doctors work and live in socialised healthcare countries huh
We must be starving for OB/GYNS and GPS...all those maternal and infant deaths, not to mention six month wait to see a gp, who flies in from BF nowhere to do his pro bono exams.
oh wait...


_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 2:35:37 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And, yet, damn, your infant mortality rate is lower than ours.

How the fuck do you guys do that with less OB/GYN's????

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 2:43:47 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Veterinarians!!!

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 3:05:20 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		HAHAHAHA!!!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 3:06:46 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Theres lots of birthing jokes there, but Im gonna behave:)

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 4:28:44 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/health-law-spurs-shift-hours-022100532.html

Seems like, as predicted, that business is eliminating employee healthcare after all. All they had to do was reduce the hours of their employees and shift the burden for payment of healthcare to the individual.


No surprise....I'm actually surprised it took this long for this to make the press.

It's simple math people....business needs to make a profit for there to be jobs. Your jobs.

I really don't think there's much more needed to be added than that (although I'm confident there will be hoards of others exclaiming that business makes far too much as it is).

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 4:33:09 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Darden, one of the businesses who are cutting back, offer a Day One Insurance policy.... which isnt crap.

3000 a year limit, and thats after the payout of your own pocket.
Reimbursement for meds... ahem... who can afford that?
50% dental...

Its a policy for the young and stupid. Having to fight the insurance companies for the money owned to employees is a bitch. I have been there.


That's fine Taz....when you're willing to pay 35 bucks per plate for a salad and some pasta....Darden will be there for you.

Start a business.

Hire 51 people.

Report back.

(Bring a copy of your P&L statement with you please).

ObamaCare is going to be a great thing....for those businesses with 49 and fewer employees....which there will be many more of.

(Guess which businesses are the most stable? Those with 500 and more employees....ergo....you're going to see MASSIVE business failures over the next 10 years or more....enjoy Obama :) )

By the way....lawyers are going to be busier than fuck....dissecting larger business enterprises into vastly smaller ones....which will, of course, cause costs to rise....and your costs to eat, get gas, etc.....to rise....enjoy...it's gonna be a blast :) ).

Just remember....you wanted this :)

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 11/6/2012 4:34:42 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 4:43:12 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Darden, one of the businesses who are cutting back, offer a Day One Insurance policy.... which isnt crap.

3000 a year limit, and thats after the payout of your own pocket.
Reimbursement for meds... ahem... who can afford that?
50% dental...

Its a policy for the young and stupid. Having to fight the insurance companies for the money owned to employees is a bitch. I have been there.


That's fine Taz....when you're willing to pay 35 bucks per plate for a salad and some pasta....Darden will be there for you.

Start a business.

Hire 51 people.

Report back.

(Bring a copy of your P&L statement with you please).

ObamaCare is going to be a great thing....for those businesses with 49 and fewer employees....which there will be many more of.

(Guess which businesses are the most stable? Those with 500 and more employees....ergo....you're going to see MASSIVE business failures over the next 10 years or more....enjoy Obama :) )

By the way....lawyers are going to be busier than fuck....dissecting larger business enterprises into vastly smaller ones....which will, of course, cause costs to rise....and your costs to eat, get gas, etc.....to rise....enjoy...it's gonna be a blast :) ).

Just remember....you wanted this :)


Ya know.... 35 bucks? lol.... 14cents to a pizza place... and you think its gonna drive prices up to 35 bucks at the Olive Garden? And Red Lobster is close to that already.

Have you ever worked in the restaurant industry? I ask because you dont seem to know much about pricing.

And, yes, you are right. I do want this. I want this immensely. I want insurance to no longer be employer based. I want employers out of insurance. I want a single payer National Health Care system.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 4:55:47 PM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline 		We have lots of OB/GYNs? Funny, my friend the MD says America simply isn't graduating any, what we have are foreign trained 'brain drainers' coming here for a safer environment for their families or 'for awhile'. Several other specialties are graduating No American MDs?
If anyone wants to actually save on health care costs, how about stopping the end loading costs spent on people all but dead whose relatives demand every possible expense to drag the dying out a few more weeks to days? Operations that cost $100,000+ and just prolong the suffering? The other industrial states spend on the start of life for humanitarian, health AND economic reasons. The US runs about half the prenatal care rates as EU counties. We're behind Spain, Portugal and Italy??
And my friend with no insurance couldn't get a narcotic pump that actually offers effective, economical palliative care because he might get addicted? With end stage pancreatic cancer and a few months to live? I'm not sure it is possible to design a much less functional or expensive system for the majority of Americans.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Doing Away With Employer Healthcare - 11/6/2012 5:20:31 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Darden, one of the businesses who are cutting back, offer a Day One Insurance policy.... which isnt crap.

3000 a year limit, and thats after the payout of your own pocket.
Reimbursement for meds... ahem... who can afford that?
50% dental...

Its a policy for the young and stupid. Having to fight the insurance companies for the money owned to employees is a bitch. I have been there.


That's fine Taz....when you're willing to pay 35 bucks per plate for a salad and some pasta....Darden will be there for you.

Start a business.

Hire 51 people.

Report back.

(Bring a copy of your P&L statement with you please).

ObamaCare is going to be a great thing....for those businesses with 49 and fewer employees....which there will be many more of.

(Guess which businesses are the most stable? Those with 500 and more employees....ergo....you're going to see MASSIVE business failures over the next 10 years or more....enjoy Obama :) )

By the way....lawyers are going to be busier than fuck....dissecting larger business enterprises into vastly smaller ones....which will, of course, cause costs to rise....and your costs to eat, get gas, etc.....to rise....enjoy...it's gonna be a blast :) ).

Just remember....you wanted this :)


Ya know.... 35 bucks? lol.... 14cents to a pizza place... and you think its gonna drive prices up to 35 bucks at the Olive Garden? And Red Lobster is close to that already.

Have you ever worked in the restaurant industry? I ask because you dont seem to know much about pricing.

And, yes, you are right. I do want this. I want this immensely. I want insurance to no longer be employer based. I want employers out of insurance. I want a single payer National Health Care system.


Not only have I worked in the industry (far too long ago to have any cognizant ability to understand costs re: same, but) I own 3 companies, one local/regional, one national and one international so....as to costs....I am uniquely qualified for this discussion.

None of which employs more than 49 people and rest assured....it'll stay that way.

And when I opt to expand beyond that employment level....I'll dissect my firms in accordance with the requirements that mandate me to opt for obligations that limit my ability to compete effectively in the marketplace.

And for the record, my CFO has already done the math and lawyers will be cheaper than obligating our firms to regulations that far exceed anything most understand about these regs.

(And by the way....none of it has to do with insurance....we pay 100% of all medical, dental and vision, and will continue to do so).


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 80
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