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RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/16/2006 3:48:34 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AZIMUTH

Just to add my two penny worth, I am a U.K. citizen and I fully support the U.S. and U.K. in Iraq, anything is better than seeing the wholesale mass slaughter of innocents by warring paramilitary militias and religous militant fanatics. Do any of you anti-war guys appreciate the largescale radicalisation of young men that has occured accross the Middle East over the last 20 years? Regardless of the political causes, you are not going to calm these very pissed guys down with liberal platitudes and appeasement. The firm hand of peace keeping is never going to be able to suit the liberal minded or politically correct sitting at home in safety without the heavy responsibility of command and authority that our troops have to bare 24/7. I respect our troops and fully appreciate that they are sacrificing their lives to prevent a very imminent human catastrophe between bloody warring factions. I believe our troops have shown supreme levels of restraint in a no-win situation. 


We drew the lines in the sand that caused the problem in the first place. At least we don't have the power to know what is best for anyone anymore, that mantel goes to the US whose leaders are proving to be no more wiser than Britain's at its height.

I agree with JW, the US with us in support shouldn't be policing the world. It's pointless because we will only get the blame anyway because invariably wrong decisions will be made.

I also don't trust the various establishments who I suspect are out for their own personal interests, which is what history tells us to suspect. Why Iraq and not other countries where people were suffering far more then them? 

(in reply to AZIMUTH)
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RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/16/2006 6:16:02 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

We drew the lines in the sand that caused the problem in the first place. At least we don't have the power to know what is best for anyone anymore, that mantel goes to the US whose leaders are proving to be no more wiser than Britain's at its height.


Part of me hoped there was some secret intelligence the masses cant know about. My gram who I respect elders..says bush will go down as the best president in our lifetime. [coughs]

I dont want the US to fail. [but] increasingly US interests = corporate interests.

Sacrafice is NOT shared in this war.  The re-election gala balls went on as tho everything were fine. This war isnt being paid for. Is is all on debt. 9 trillion in debt.   special tax breaks for the top 2%, but excuse me, we are at war -right?
So not only will the elite put theur kinds blood on the line- [they] also are not funding this war.

So who is?

(so) Who is funding the US war machine?

When other players on the world stage take their ball and go home- see how fast the house of cards collapses.  --the rest of us left holding the bag.  Shockwaves will be felt all over when the fidler must be paid.

ouch.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/16/2006 6:21:34 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Sartre put it in a nutshell. “When the rich make war it's the poor that die” He should have added, the poor also pay for the privelege.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/16/2006 6:37:21 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Clinton left the US in good financial shape. So the budget woes- cant be blamed on the past.

One way or another the budget will have to shore up.

[but] we are busy getting military assets, and ducks in a row to bomb Iran. another country that US played both sides against the middle.

- if the dollar collapses, the elites will be out of here so fast....

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/16/2006 6:55:06 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Iraq did not attack the USA.


Is that your test question for determining the validity of going to war?

If so the last war to qualify would be the War of 1812 versus the British. No other war was initiated by an attack on the United States. Broadening the qualification to territories only would 'justify' a war on Japan, Germany never attacked the US.

The 9/11 attack was made by a people without a county, it was made on behalf of a religion. Your argument can be used to declare war on Islam. There are recordings of the terrorists, their leaders, and the religion's leaders; verifying that it was done as the "will of Allah", on behalf of the prophet Mohammad.

Ironically, we are in Iran protecting these same people. The war has lasted longer than Korea, and WWII. I too do not believe these people are worth it. But the cause and effect argument of an attack on the US is not historically valid.

Of course, US "interests" are another matter. As long as there is a vocal minority using oil and energy but not wanting any exploration, new refineries, or alternatives such as nuclear power; built in their neighborhood or anywhere in the US then you require your elected leaders to find it somewhere else and bring it to you. Under the broad 'US interests" umbrella, if coffee became the new 'oil' the war would be in Columbia. If blood could be used to power our homes perhaps we'd be harvesting what is currently being shed in Dafur in the name of Allah, where 2500 deaths is a slow day.

pahunkboy, you state a statistic. The US went to Iraq. The US is in Iraq. Saddam, the wannabe Hitler of the Muslim world, and mass murderer of his own people as well as his neighbors in Iran has been deposed. There is a forming Iraqi government. If we didn't keep score would your position change? If no US solders died would your position be any different? Would you want Iraq to be a free zone, a base, and a source of aid and comfort for Muslim terrorists? I appreciate that you don't want the US to be anywhere. I understand that you don't care if Muslims kill other Muslims because of the differing style of head-wear. I appreciate that the rights for woman, such as driving a car or being outside with their earlobe uncovered isn't something you feel warranting intervention by the US. I know that Israel's destruction is not worthy of US intervention. 

Your position would require an attack on your neighborhood by an enemy wearing a contrasting uniform from a clearly bordered country. No problem, but the people of Europe and the people of the Pacific are happy that wasn't the standard in 1942. But by 1950 or so, do you think that Japan and Germany would have noticed us? And with the resources of the rest of the world they conquered do you think we'd be speaking German or Japanese? Not fighting the current adversary, abandoning the region, and capitulating; how long will it take for school prayer to be reinstated in the schools? Of course it will be a Moslem's prayer, and the girls would be segregated and wearing burkas, if they were allowed to go at all.  

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/16/2006 7:15:31 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Ok- I want cheap energy- inexpensive things as much as the next person.

China and India are poised to be competition on energy.

So- I was ok- yeah, lets get our oil. We desserve it right?

But- the re-election gala balls, the obsceen record oil profits. Changed my mind.

As for ww2.  This isnt the same thing.  US bankers laundered plenty of money, help hide assets, and profitted finacially off of the haulacaust. Before we jumped in to that war.

Do you know US military is in over 100 countries?

We do need to be in some places.

[but] out very methods of instigations, stirring up agression, butting into affairs that our really none of our own business, only backfires. remember reagans contra scandal...now ms-13 gangs coming home to roost.

Lets secure the pipelines, and bring home the troops safely. They can govern themself.

[] <-- push this button to make that happen---

winks

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/16/2006 7:37:24 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Not fighting the current adversary, abandoning the region, and capitulating; how long will it take for school prayer to be reinstated in the schools? Of course it will be a Moslem's prayer, and the girls would be segregated and wearing burkas, if they were allowed to go at all.  


This is hyperbole Mercnbeth. The Islamic world is failing which is part of the problem, not posed to conquer the west. Many of the reasons it is failing is because of its own making but another is the west interfering and exploiting the Arabic world for its oil. Despite western platitudes of freedom and democracy, the west is not garanteeing Isreal's survival but supporting Isreal in its stealing of Palastinian land, condemning Palastinian atrocities while ignoring Isreali attrocities and it willfull disregard of its crimes and human rights violations, such as collective punishment, the appropriation of occupied land, extra-judicial executions with missiles that regularly kill numerous innocent Palastinian women and children.

Rather than go to war, a better option would be for the west to stop being hypocritical, stop interfering in the internal affairs of other countries and put on trial its own war criminals and those of their satelites. Maybe then the actions of the US and other western countries would not be seen as neo-colonialism.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/16/2006 7:40:16 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/16/2006 10:09:00 AM   
MistressLorelei


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Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		The U.S. claims to have liberated Iraq... yet, US companies (like Halliburton for one) continue to outbid companies owned by residents of Iraq.... how can any company compete with such financial power?  Why isn't our government more concerned with helping residents of Iraq to re-build their country, than bringing our greedy American bully corporations in to do it.  Additionally, the power supply to families is presently half of what it was under Saddam... the police force in Iraq has no power, nor does its government, as Iraq is being run by the U.S...  Now that's liberation.

< Message edited by MistressLorelei -- 6/16/2006 10:10:22 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/16/2006 10:25:16 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Bechtel is the other company.  For thousands of years- these folks were capable of governing themselves. 

We did not do them any favors at this point. Maybe that can turn around. It remains to be seen.

The east coast had no power for a few hours. People were livid. Iraq in in fact operating on limited power.

Makes you wonder what "freedom" means....

(in reply to MistressLorelei)
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RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/16/2006 10:27:53 AM   
JohnSteed1967


Posts: 304
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline 		My Two Cents, I want to thank all veterans for there service, thank you for the job you did and continue to do. You have sacrificed your time, Your earning power, your limbs and sometimes your life. So that I can live in a country that allows me the freedoms to post this message (Or At least the seeming freedom.)

However, Let's look at some real honest true facts here. 1) North Korea is a Danger, their leader is mentally unstable. We know they Have nuclear weapons, We know they have the bomb and that we have even found the shell of a test ICBM from their Country on a beach in Alaska! Yet George isn't running a private war against N. Korea!

2) Museums and scholars from around the country for the full year before we went into Iraq. Went to the Bush administration and begged and pleaded with them that IF you go into Iraq you must protect the Bagdad museum because the treasures that are housed there are priceless and are the history of all man. Yet, the Bagdad Musem was looted to the walls. However, there was not a paper taken off of a desk at the Oil Minstry down the road.

3) I am sure there are a few vietnam vets that may read this, or atleast those that we affected by vietnam. there are very simple words here GULF OF TONKIN! never happened, we were never attacked but LBJ lied to get us into a war where thousands upon thousands died. How man people rember Bush, and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Powell all screaming about Weapons of Mass Destruction. Yet, they have failed to find one ounce of nuclear material that wasn't already accounted for by the atomic energy commision. One Vial of Plauge or antrax.

What Bush has done is CRIMINAL!


< Message edited by JohnSteed1967 -- 6/16/2006 10:29:42 AM >

(in reply to Cervixkiller)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/16/2006 12:38:38 PM   
chastesubbie


Posts: 10
Joined: 3/10/2005
Status: offline 		After Bush landed on that aircraft carrier and declared major combat operations at an end (what a PR stunt !!), I distinctly remember CNN reporting that the Pentagon said that by that fall ( which was 2 1/2 years ago now) there would be 30,000 to 40,000 occupation troops left in Iraq. Current troop level is at 130,000. The majority of our combat deaths have now occured after Bush said the war was over ! 

We were also told the oil would pay for the war. Total money appropriated for the Iraq War so far is over 300 billion dollars, none of it coming from Iraq oil but from American taxpayers, in fact  money the government doesn't even have, i.e. it gets added to the now record Bush deficits. The fact is, Iraq presently has to import gasoline and in Bagdad residents wait in line to get gas. .

The list of outright lies, blunders,  and criminal incompetance are far too numerous to list here, but an administration that can't even deal with a natural disaster and aid Americans here at home presuming to have the ability to invade and then run some foriegn country is ludicrous.

The fact is, the only thing the Bush crime family and its accomplices ( aka the Republican Party) can do well is lie, cheat, and steal.




(in reply to JohnSteed1967)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 -oil - 6/16/2006 7:38:15 PM   
AZIMUTH


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Joined: 9/17/2005
Status: offline 		I would like to salute all you posters for showing D/S lifestylers to be thoughtful and liberal minded and for keeping this passionate debate from getting unpleasant and personal, I guess we all must respect our differences. However, this might inflame a few liberals, but  I want to make it clear I certainly do not advocate predjudice towards other nations, only that they have more mercenary brutal political leadership systems than our own which would rapidly propell them to World policemen in our absence.

I will make this point, if 'we' were not positioned as World Policemen, do you think the Chinese or Russian authoritian regimes would not make moves to gain majority control over World oil reserves? A weakened Iraq being the third largest reserve of oil and a great temptation to all. Dont you think they bankroll stooges and dictators too? China and Iran ring a bell? Dont you think they provoke regional civil wars and instability too, to get their advantage?

In the Victorian age, keeping rival empires expansion ambitions in check was known as the great game.  This battle for influence primarily involving trade and natural resources has been fought all around the World since the dawn of civilisation. The Trojan War is one very early example. I've heard it said by certain historians that the start of the American civil war was as much over control of lucrative trade and tax duty between the north and the South as the other more palatable celebrated reason of freeing the slaves. Certainly the American War of independence with Great Britain was a War about how trade and resources were moved and taxed.

We (U.S.A. and the U.K.) have the authority of being the oldest democracies, the least worst, the least murderous of all the leading nations.   Have you seen Putin's work in Chechenya? It has been alleged virtually all the Chechen males of fighting age have been killed, do we see that in Iraq? I think not. Have you seen the Chinese State's work in Tibet?  Have you seen the US Government practice compulsory sterilisation on the indigenous Iraqis to eliminate them entirely and replace them with settlers, have you seen their entire cultural identity and religous buildings levelled into dust? I don't think so.

It may be far more of an economic strategic neccesity to annexe political control of countries for their oil reserves in this century than any of us would like to think. I do not advocate the civilian death toll at all, or the loss of anybody's life. We are looking at  perhaps, the new reality of the end of the stability of the cold war which is too much for many of us civilised Westerners to bare. As the oil reserves reach their natural economic limit; we may once again all have to play at being dominant over submissive nations on a global scale to get our lions share of the oil.  The age of oil empires.

I don't really expect to win many liberal friends over with this statement. Perhaps you haven't been a conquered nation for so long that you have begun to feel superior, that you are invulnerable because you have civilised values, it can't happen to you. We can all be conquered if the other guy owns the oil and he decides to turn it off. Can you imagine what our currency and stock exchanges would do in this circumstance? The Russians already supply the Gas to most of Europe's power stations. Do you trust the ex-head of the KGB to be a nice well balanced  individual and not pile the pressure on at the moment of maximum opportunity? 

I advise pacifists on here to read Tsun Tsu The Art of War. You are decent minded people, the World isn't run by decent people like you. Its run by realists. Bush may be an unpopular realist stuck in a hell of a mess but he is being a realist about our future need for dominance by winning control of oil reserves outside our borders. 

We are all currently acting as dominant nations whether we like it or not. Look at the pittence average third world farmer gets paid for what he puts on your plate, or the slave wages paid to the underage foreign worker who made your sports shoes. We can only hope to be more civilised tyrants in the future. Thats O.K. though because  just as the 4-wheel drives driven by so many liberals burn so much gas, the large house and appartments they own  need lots of heating, the expensive foreign holidays that they take need tons of  aviation fuel; most liberals I have met have a great appetite for lifes many comforts and they arent really looking for biting economic changes coming from fair trade in oil to happen anytime soon. They just want the opportunity to feel righteous about injustice and stretch their liberal consciences. Bush took a gamble on securing more oil, he may succeed he may fail. We revere historical leaders who were such gamblers in other eras because most soon forget the human cost is always part of the equation.

(in reply to chastesubbie)
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RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 -oil - 6/16/2006 7:55:47 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		I dont agree or disagree with war. I think sometimes they are necessary. I sometimes wonder though, if they want to get rid of a particular person, why dont they just send a sniper spy to shoot them and that way the general populous, the soldiers etc, dont have to suffer. Probably an ignorant view, but I do think about that sometimes.

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to AZIMUTH)
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RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 -oil - 6/17/2006 12:52:57 AM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali
if they want to get rid of a particular person, why dont they just send a sniper spy to shoot them

They do. They attack a country on many levels, destabilizing it, putting an evil dictator in power, or creating a terrorist leader and eventually after ten or twenty or forty years they orquestrate a huge atrocity in the USA and tell the people of the USA "Now we have to go to war to depose this evil man who is responsible for this atrocity and to free his country and to bring it democracy".  And the people of the USA always swallow the lie like bait and hook.

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RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/17/2006 2:00:18 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Several things here. The west has had ample opportunity to reduce its reliance on third world oil through conservation and new technologies but for reasons we can only speculate it refuses to do so. Up to 30% of energy in the west is wasted. Could it be that our politicians are corrupt and in the pockets of the oil companies? Maybe but the truth is that ordinary people who could vote for change don't look further than the weekend, their next beer and their next good fuck.

China and India will be in increasing competition with the west for fossil resources, that is a fact. Russia is a net exporter and who wants to relie on them for resources but prices will be hiked and resources will go to the highest bidder. The west can't argue with that as that is capitalism. It amuses me that now capitalism has won the ideological argument, it appears to wish it hadn't. I laugh about people complaining about globalistaion because this is the consequence of the west ideological victory.

I think Bush should have read Tsun Tsu The Art of War. Correct me if I'm wrong but he does say that a good general shouldn't use his army in the first instant because the threat of its use is more powerful than its use. I think this can be seen in Iraq. The threat of the mighty American military was scary, now that threat is a fact, it isn't half as scary as was originally thought, not for the insurgents anyway.

If global warming is a fact and all the evidence points to that being a fact, Bush will be seen as a corrupt villain. Fighting a war so his friends in the oil industry can make money while ignoring the greatest threat of all. How much do you think the war has cost and how much money goes on research for alternative energy? We've always known it but the world is mad and its not always the bogeymen the politicians tell us will eat our children if we aren't careful that are mad but the story teller politicians that we listen to.

(in reply to JohnSteed1967)
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RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/17/2006 4:52:11 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		If more money could be made by selling oil to China, do you really think the oil barrons would keep any allegiance to the west? ie USA, UK, EU?

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/17/2006 5:04:51 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		No but because that is true now, it doesn't mean it will always be true and China's oil companies have out bid the west on several occasions for access to resources ie. Nigeria and Venuzuela I belive or that one might just be in the offing.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/17/2006 5:09:39 AM   
NewMaleSlave


Posts: 2
Joined: 6/15/2006
Status: offline 		iraq is a dying country we should all help it die quick

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/17/2006 5:09:55 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		The massive rush to set up factories in China, due to more money. A good example. Big money is loyal to no flag, no nation. It flows where it will make the most cash for its stockholders.


(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: deaths in Iraq hit 2500 - 6/17/2006 7:36:18 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NewMaleSlave

iraq is a dying country we should all help it die quick


Actually, it isn't even a country.  It's a place made up by men in European suits sitting in counties like England and Spain.  They draw a line on a map and a "country" appears on a map but not in the soul of the people living there.

To anyone who recognizes the history and beliefs of the place, it's clear that there are three potential countries there.  The Kurds in the north; the Sunni in the middle and the Shi'a in the south. 

My feeling is just to let things take place as happened in India.  Pakistan wasn't part of the English plan, but it appeared because it was clear that the lines Whitehall had drawn on a map were sufficient to the situation.

I hope the current "birth" isn't as bloody as that one was, but we aren't helping by acting as midwives shoving the emerging babies back into the mother's body and claiming it's for her own good.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to NewMaleSlave)
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