Truth to the GOP (Full Version)

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DomKen -> Truth to the GOP (11/10/2012 4:50:15 PM)

I've been following the post mortems inside the republican party and conservative movement with a great deal of interest and hope. It is becoming clear that the bulk of the right is intent on denying that what has just happened is due to any systemic demographic disadvatages that if they further purify their party they will naturally appeal to more of the electorate. That path leads no where but many more years of a hateful fearful subculture isolating itself from the rest of the US which will almost certainly lead to more violence.

So its time for some truth:
Women's reproductive health issues is one of those things most women will vote solely on. It's not that Ryan, Akin and Mourdoch were indelicate in telling women they should be forced to bear their rapists babies to term. It is simply unacceptable for government to restrain a woman's decisions in that circumstance.

Supply side economics is bunk. We've tried it twice and the only result was historically anemic growth and a growing income inequality.

The difference between a top marginal rate of 35% and 39.5% is inconsequential for most people who pay any taxes at that rate. However that amount in the aggregate will have a large effect on the structural deficit that you claim to care about so much.  The carried interest exemption benefits only a few dozen mega rich fund managers, who do not employ more than a few dozen people total, and treating it as normal income, which it is, would bring in a great deal of tax revenue from people who are the very antithesis of your Randian philosophy.

Science is not subject to your wishes. The Earth is not 6000 years old. Man did evolve from more primitive primates. The global climate is warming and all available evidence suggests it is due to human activity. Poll samples do not need to be unskewed. People who tell the truth about science do not deserve to be attacked simply because you do not like what the science has to say.

The only conceivable way to end undocumented immigration is to implement a police state of the sort you claim to fear Obama will create. We can and should work to limit and control it but it is patently unfair to deny a young person who has lived almost their entire life in the US a way to regularize their status nd a route to full citizenship.

Your politicans cannot use code words or dog whistles to attract the worst sorts to their side without the rest of us noticing. Trying to make it harder to vote is both patently unAmerican but it was grossly ineffective. Accept that the demographic makeup of this nation has changed and your side has to find ways to appeal to this more diverse electorate.

Homosexuals are people and it is obvious to pretty much everyone that no one would choose to be gay even in today's world. Homosexuals are not out to recruit young people but maybe if young people who have strong homosexual urges saw more out homosexuals in their communities they would commit suicide less frequently. Your marriages are not threatened by couples of any sexual orientation entering into the same compact.

The right wing media is not telling you the truth. They are telling you what they think will confirm your biases and fears. The more you reject reality and ensconce yourself in a bubble of misinformation the less able you are to make good decisions.

Please take this to heart. I fear for this country I dearly love because of your continuing rejection of reality and your sinking into an isoationist culture.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/10/2012 5:10:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Please take this to heart. I fear for this country I dearly love because of your continuing rejection of reality and your sinking into an isoationist culture.


Why?

If that was true, the people will stop voting for them and they will cease to exist... I would think you would welcome this...

And violence from who???




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/10/2012 5:16:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Please take this to heart. I fear for this country I dearly love because of your continuing rejection of reality and your sinking into an isoationist culture.


Why?

If that was true, the people will stop voting for them and they will cease to exist... I would think you would welcome this...

And violence from who???



In order for our political culture to remain active, and for new and fresh ideas to emerge, we need at least two functioning major parties. I am fine with the Republican party as we know it disappearing, but it has to be replaced by something otherwise our political discourse suffers. This is simply a matter of practicality.

I do agree with DomKen's list of "things the GOP might want to jettison in hopes of attracting more moderate voters".

If both parties were actually competing for the same people this would make a huge difference in how our politics play out, because the parties would have to actually come up with practical solutions to various economic and social issues. Wouldn't that be refreshing?

Our current situation actually lets both parties off the hook.




DomKen -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/10/2012 5:50:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Please take this to heart. I fear for this country I dearly love because of your continuing rejection of reality and your sinking into an isoationist culture.


Why?

If that was true, the people will stop voting for them and they will cease to exist... I would think you would welcome this...

And violence from who???


I welcome nothing that makes this nation weaker. The present GOP makes the nation weaker and looks to beome worse as time goes on.

Violence from isolated conservatives who no longer feel any loyalty or love for this nation but instead worship an America that never actually existed. What other possible result can come from the conservative movement encouraging homeschooling, conservative collleges (Liberty, BJU, ORU etc.),  conservative media, their own "facts" etc.. The more conservatives withdraw from society as a whole the easier it becomes for them to take violent action against those who "stole their nation."




Fellow -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/10/2012 6:36:09 PM)

quote:

Women's reproductive health issues is one of those things most women will vote solely on. It's not that Ryan, Akin and Mourdoch were indelicate in telling women they should be forced to bear their rapists babies to term. It is simply unacceptable for government to restrain a woman's decisions in that circumstance.

Is it true? I do not think so. Are GOP supporters against women reproductive health or maybe they just do not like abortion (not healthy decision in many circumstances).

quote:

Supply side economics is bunk.


So is consumption side economics, Keynesianism and crony government run scam the Democrats are supporting.

quote:

Science is not subject to your wishes. The Earth is not 6000 years old. Man did evolve from more primitive primates. The global climate is warming and all available evidence suggests it is due to human activity. Poll samples do not need to be unskewed. People who tell the truth about science do not deserve to be attacked simply because you do not like what the science has to say.


People believe things, it is not specific to GOP. Straw-man building explains nothing, it is not a good tool. The general principle: the conservatives believe the scientism is not a sole principle for the government operation. "Scientific dictatorship" leads to "scientific" abuses. We do not know how the world is built and this is a fact. The mainstream science reflects only the current paradigm and it helps us to solve everyday practical problems.

quote:

The right wing media is not telling you the truth.


I am not sure what is meant here. We find all kind of media these days. There is no specific lying right-wing media. The mainstream corporate news media is mostly lying all the time regardless how you label it, right or left. Mainstream right and left are just different flavors given to narrowly focused distorted reporting what is going on.

quote:

The only conceivable way to end undocumented immigration is to implement a police state of the sort you claim to fear Obama will create.


Wasn't so called Comprehensive Immigration Act Republican invention GW Bush and John McCain being the major sponsors? I do not think Obama accelerated police state building is immigration-related. The main reason is the real possibility of the economic collapse and the resulting civil unrest.

PS. I have no affiliation with the GOP. I am a moderate libertarian




DarkSteven -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/10/2012 6:50:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I've been following the post mortems inside the republican party and conservative movement with a great deal of interest and hope. It is becoming clear that the bulk of the right is intent on denying that what has just happened is due to any systemic demographic disadvatages that if they further purify their party they will naturally appeal to more of the electorate. That path leads no where but many more years of a hateful fearful subculture isolating itself from the rest of the US which will almost certainly lead to more violence.



Ken, give them some time. They've been living in a bubble and been fed stories about Romney's impending win for weeks if not months. I've heard every kind of reaction from the GOP, some sensible, some not.

They should be in shock for another week or so. After that, we'll see what directions they plan to take.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/10/2012 7:56:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Please take this to heart. I fear for this country I dearly love because of your continuing rejection of reality and your sinking into an isoationist culture.

Why?
If that was true, the people will stop voting for them and they will cease to exist... I would think you would welcome this...
And violence from who???

In order for our political culture to remain active, and for new and fresh ideas to emerge, we need at least two functioning major parties. I am fine with the Republican party as we know it disappearing, but it has to be replaced by something otherwise our political discourse suffers. This is simply a matter of practicality.
I do agree with DomKen's list of "things the GOP might want to jettison in hopes of attracting more moderate voters".
If both parties were actually competing for the same people this would make a huge difference in how our politics play out, because the parties would have to actually come up with practical solutions to various economic and social issues. Wouldn't that be refreshing?
Our current situation actually lets both parties off the hook.


So, the idea is that the GOP needs to move closer to the Democrat Party? You talk about needing two functioning major parties. If the only difference between the two is the name, how is that going to spur on new and fresh ideas? And, if the GOP "moves towards the middle," wouldn't that be intimating that they get to "choose" their beliefs, making them not actual beliefs?

I identify more with the Libertarian Party than the GOP, but what it looks like on the surface, what DomKen is advising sure seems to me that he's recommending the GOP turns into the Libertarian Party. While I'm not against that, per se, I would much rather see a 3-party system. That way, you would more clearly see the electorate's choice between fiscal and social conservatism/liberalism.




DarkSteven -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/10/2012 8:04:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I would much rather see a 3-party system. That way, you would more clearly see the electorate's choice between fiscal and social conservatism/liberalism.



My preference for a three party system is that it would no longer suffice for me to rip the other guy, and assume that I as the sole alternative will get the votes. If I rip you up in a three party system, then we BOTH look bad and the third party candidate gets the votes.




cloudboy -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/10/2012 8:07:45 PM)

I think the best that we can hope for is that the Republicans marginalize right wing extremists instead of pandering to them. One commentator said that it will probably take another whack on the head (losing the 2016 Presidential election) for the party to wake up.

I also heard on the radio today that the Democrats won a majority of the votes cast for the House or Representatives but b/c of gerrymandering it does not translate into more house seats.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/10/2012 8:12:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


So, the idea is that the GOP needs to move closer to the Democrat Party? You talk about needing two functioning major parties. If the only difference between the two is the name, how is that going to spur on new and fresh ideas?


They will have to have new and fresh ideas in order to distinguish themselves - that is the whole point. They would have to appeal to the electorate on the basis of actual ideas and solutions instead of just some extreme ideological platform. How novel. I am interested in solutions, not ideology. And the current system doesn't foster good ideas because each party has a completely different voter base. They aren't trying to compete for the same votes at all. It's not actually competitive. If you feel competition leads to better ideas, then they should be competing for the same set of voters.




slvemike4u -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/11/2012 5:23:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I've been following the post mortems inside the republican party and conservative movement with a great deal of interest and hope. It is becoming clear that the bulk of the right is intent on denying that what has just happened is due to any systemic demographic disadvatages that if they further purify their party they will naturally appeal to more of the electorate. That path leads no where but many more years of a hateful fearful subculture isolating itself from the rest of the US which will almost certainly lead to more violence.

So its time for some truth:
Women's reproductive health issues is one of those things most women will vote solely on. It's not that Ryan, Akin and Mourdoch were indelicate in telling women they should be forced to bear their rapists babies to term. It is simply unacceptable for government to restrain a woman's decisions in that circumstance.

Supply side economics is bunk. We've tried it twice and the only result was historically anemic growth and a growing income inequality.

The difference between a top marginal rate of 35% and 39.5% is inconsequential for most people who pay any taxes at that rate. However that amount in the aggregate will have a large effect on the structural deficit that you claim to care about so much.  The carried interest exemption benefits only a few dozen mega rich fund managers, who do not employ more than a few dozen people total, and treating it as normal income, which it is, would bring in a great deal of tax revenue from people who are the very antithesis of your Randian philosophy.

Science is not subject to your wishes. The Earth is not 6000 years old. Man did evolve from more primitive primates. The global climate is warming and all available evidence suggests it is due to human activity. Poll samples do not need to be unskewed. People who tell the truth about science do not deserve to be attacked simply because you do not like what the science has to say.

The only conceivable way to end undocumented immigration is to implement a police state of the sort you claim to fear Obama will create. We can and should work to limit and control it but it is patently unfair to deny a young person who has lived almost their entire life in the US a way to regularize their status nd a route to full citizenship.

Your politicans cannot use code words or dog whistles to attract the worst sorts to their side without the rest of us noticing. Trying to make it harder to vote is both patently unAmerican but it was grossly ineffective. Accept that the demographic makeup of this nation has changed and your side has to find ways to appeal to this more diverse electorate.

Homosexuals are people and it is obvious to pretty much everyone that no one would choose to be gay even in today's world. Homosexuals are not out to recruit young people but maybe if young people who have strong homosexual urges saw more out homosexuals in their communities they would commit suicide less frequently. Your marriages are not threatened by couples of any sexual orientation entering into the same compact.

The right wing media is not telling you the truth. They are telling you what they think will confirm your biases and fears. The more you reject reality and ensconce yourself in a bubble of misinformation the less able you are to make good decisions.

Please take this to heart. I fear for this country I dearly love because of your continuing rejection of reality and your sinking into an isoationist culture.

I meant to reply to this last night,life happens;-(
I haven't looked,I don't know where the thread has gone since than,but I wanted to give props to Ken for what is/was one of the most lucid ,well thought out,OP's in recent memory.
It is,in my opinion ,a road map out of the wilderness for the GOP...whether or not they are ready to make the trek is still in dispute.
According to an article I saw in this morning's New York Times,Boehner has made some calls and informed his caucus that "elections have consequences" and that they will,as a result ,need to be more flexible in upcoming negotiations with the White House
We shall all see what comes of that,one thing we can count on is that the right on these pages will continue to claim that this is the most partisan President in all of history.
They will do so despite all evidence to the contrary,should House Republicans actually come to the table and make a deal I expect much teeth gnashing and cries of" betrayal most foul" from our own right. [8|]




slvemike4u -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/11/2012 5:37:27 AM)

So I read what few response there were....and my right wing brethren certainly lived up to my low expectations.


The belief that as Democrats and even liberals we are all dancing in the streets watching the marginalization of the GOP is so much poppycock,I for one was a registered Republican 5 short years ago.I ,and most other intelligent people realize that a two party system needs two healthy parties to function.Above that we need two parties to offer us choices.
An election in which I know who I am going to vote for before the selection of candidates is not an election I care to see become the norm.If one party becomes the home of nothing but the disgruntled,the disenfranchised and the loons than we,as a Nation,are surely in a whole shit load of trouble(not saying that is yet the case...but the road does loom ahead)
The GOP need not become the center right version of the Democratic party,but it does need to ,once again,become a party in which inclusion is the norm rather than what it is currently.One in which the main selling point is fear.Fear of others,fear of immigrants,of liberals,of leftists...you name it the GOP is selling it.
Perhaps my memory is skewed,but when I grew up I remember it being said that both parties had the same priority,namely what was best for America...their only difference being how to get there.
Now it seems that the parties hold totally different visions of America [&o]




SchrodingerSock -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/11/2012 6:14:14 AM)

Odd democracy
Clown no 1
Clown no 2
The rapist comments were gob smacking but still nearly 50% of you electorate choose this lot - who are clearly agents of god to make statements like that.

And the fact both parties are always quoting god puzzles me somewhat. Its no secret policy is dictated by conglomerates and the environment means little as they are too intent on gutting the world to a husk- the most recent case of an energy company objecting to wind farm in one of your states beggers belief...name of state escapes me for now. Oh the evidence has been apparent for a very long time - just the sceptics (paid for by big buisness)by evil muffin conglomerate were set up to to dissuade all the environmental evidence as sorcery and witch craft.

Curious, many inherited their wealth - much like my nation (current cabinet dear o me) and yet there taxation rate is 10-20% whilst joe public pays 25-50%. Hardly seems fair does it.

Immigration erm your nation is nothing but immigrants -yes us Europeans in days of olde liked nothing better than wiping savages of the face of the earth Long as you don't go further back than than the 15 century - did you know that the UK has actually invaded 90% of countries, god bless us.

Health care policy for a developed nation, tuts - and the objectors to free health care are in fact the very companies who profit most.

Least where I come from we get clown number 1 2 and 3, And clown no 4 if you are Scottish :)




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/11/2012 7:51:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SchrodingerSock

The rapist comments were gob smacking but still nearly 50% of you electorate choose this lot - who are clearly agents of god to make statements like that.



Well the 50% that did were primarily old white men who resembled the people who made the stupid rape comments. Most from other demographics did not vote for the Republicans (young, women, minorities, etc.).




slvemike4u -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/11/2012 8:20:21 AM)

So we are left with nothing other than to hope the old white men hurry up and die ?




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/11/2012 8:22:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So we are left with nothing other than to hope the old white men hurry up and die ?


That's kinda what I'm thinking. How old are you, anyway.....just kidding....[:D]




SimplyMichael -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/11/2012 8:23:06 AM)

If the GOP was actually the party they claim to be, I would be happy to be a republican.

I believe in hard work, personal responsibility, freedom.

Sadly, the GOPs actions show they dont. They undermine workers rights, bailout wallstreet and the banks, and restrict freedom at every turn.




slvemike4u -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/11/2012 8:26:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So we are left with nothing other than to hope the old white men hurry up and die ?


That's kinda what I'm thinking. How old are you, anyway.....just kidding....[:D]

53,but I am on the side of the angels [:)]



and I was just kidding too...well sort of [:D]




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/11/2012 8:30:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

If the GOP was actually the party they claim to be, I would be happy to be a republican.

I believe in hard work, personal responsibility, freedom.

Sadly, the GOPs actions show they dont. They undermine workers rights, bailout wallstreet and the banks, and restrict freedom at every turn.


And my feeling is that there are many in America who feel as you do. Again the devil is in the details. I don't feel that believing in personal responsibility means that you have to jettison every aspect of the social safety net. And rewarding hard work does not mean that only those who are wealthy get to keep a bigger piece of their pie. And advocating small government for business should also mean small government in our personal lives. There is middle ground the GOP could choose to tread if it dared. But in their current state it is difficult to find anything that resonates.

I just categorically reject the notion that simply enabling the big sharks to eat their kill solves the issues for the rest of the ecosystem. We are all in this together, like it or not. Pragmatism is what will win the day.




slvemike4u -> RE: Truth to the GOP (11/11/2012 8:34:33 AM)

Pragmatism is a hard sell to folks who just this cycle proved they on't even believe in math [&o]




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