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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/12/2012 8:11:18 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wilddreams17

if the death penalty is constitutional
and inhuman
then what is your constitution .,..?


... overdue for a change I guess

quote:

Report

Welcome to the boards,please keep posting.
You have style

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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/12/2012 8:15:09 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

It sounds like he should have gotten a new lawyer a while ago. But he is in Texas so I am not sure how much good it would have done. I doubt Obama will get involved or he already would have.




quote:

only say this because many conservatives who support the death penalty think it's cheaper, when, in fact, it's not. They go on and on about how they don't want their tax dollars spent keeping some low life in jail all their life, but they fail to take into consideration all the tax dollars spent on the death penalty legal process. And yes, while the process drags on, we are still paying for their imprisonment also. Again, add the death penalty to the growing list of things that conservatives are completely illogical on......


Add the death penalty to the growing list of things that bigots seem to think only happens on one side of the fence. I guess anything you can get to fuel that hate of the right is all good right?


Now all we need is 59 chiming in with those "awful cons" and the thread will be complete.

For someone constantly bemoaning the injection of the left/right paradigm you sure bring it up a lot.
In addition to being a one trick pony on this count,you add hypocrisy.
Must suck to be you

_____________________________

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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/12/2012 8:17:24 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

If it makes you feel any better, I think there should be a time limit imposed. If someone cannot prove their innocence in a few years time, then they should go directly to the chair (gas chamber, etc.).

***

There is nothing unconstitutional about that line of thought. The death penalty is not unconstitutional. The Constitution does not concern itself with how a court can legally use the death penalty, only with how it cannot be implemented (cruel and unusual punishment).

You're using an interpretation of the Constitution. The one you happen to like. It is not the only one.



Please go back and re-read the Constitution. I'm not talking about the death penalty. The issue is due process.

Presumption of innocence is a due process requirement and due process is part of the 5th Amendment of the Bill of Rights. A criminal defendant is not required to prove their innocence. The government must prove their guilt. Due process also means the criminal defendant in a capital case is entitled to exhaust all possible appeals regardless of how long those appeals might take.

You would need a constitutional amendment to revise due process and enable the courts to send someone to the death chamber after a few years if the appeals process is not yet complete. Otherwise such a law would be a violation of the Constitution.

Just citing facts here.

There's your mistake,silly lawyer, talking facts

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/12/2012 9:57:49 PM   
TheHeretic


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This stuff happens all the time before an execution. Teams of idealistic law students pull up everything they can, and throw it all in the air, hoping something will land in just right spot. They take a case that has been through all the layers of lawyers and reviews, and make another appeal in the media. As lawyers making a case might do, they leave out a bit, here and there.

I believe that some crimes demand the death penalty. I also believe that justice requires getting the right person to the chair/needle/gas chamber/bullet in the back of the head/gallows. Be sure, and then do what the crime demands.

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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/12/2012 10:05:26 PM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Due process is decided by law, not The Constitution. If due process is deemed to have been met by the law then any punishment that is not cruel and unusual is Constitutional. If the law were to state that a person could be found guilty because 3 people took witness against him/her, and that law was equally applied to all citizens, then due process clauses of The Constitution would have been met.

Again, you are interpreting something into The Constitution that does not exist. There is no mention of endless appeals in either the 5th or the 14th Amendments, which are the Amendments governing due process. So, show me where it states in The Constitution that any criminal is "entitled to exhaust all possible appeals regardless of how long those appeals might take." Please provide the exact text of The Constitution to which you are referring.

-SD-

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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/12/2012 10:10:45 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		If the blood-lustful could insure us no-one gets executed in error.....they might have a moral standing.... 


This "I care so let`s kill`m" act, just covers up a thirst for revenge......


Reams of comments about how inadequate and inept government is .......... then all of a sudden....government is perfect enough to execute people...


Tomorrow or in two hours.....it`ll be back to more con-shpiel about how bad the government is....again...

Disconnect, doesn`t describe this.....total alternate reality, comes much closer.....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 11/12/2012 10:11:43 PM >

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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/13/2012 3:05:24 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If the blood-lustful could insure us no-one gets executed in error.....they might have a moral standing.... 


I've often thought about this, not so much in death penalty cases, but in cases where people have been wrongly convicted and spent years in prison for crimes they didn't commit. It just astonishes me that a system which prides itself on a suspect being "innocent until proven guilty" can somehow "prove" people guilty when they are, in fact, innocent. The implication here is that people are being declared guilty without adequate proof, which is a violation of the principle of "innocent until proven guilty."

I have the perfect solution, however: In any cases where someone is wrongly convicted, the judge and the prosecuting attorney(s) should be held accountable and made to serve the sentence that the wrongly convicted person would have gotten. That would be a little added incentive for them to make doubly sure that they have the right guy.

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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/13/2012 4:16:17 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		That is a good post and a good idea.

The problem with the good idea is that the brethren will cover for each other and that the chance that an innocent will be released becomes even smaller than it already is. Just like physicians cover for each other.

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Preston Hughes loves leftists - 11/13/2012 4:19:00 AM   
ElChupa


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Status: offline 		I'm sure he's a fine upstanding character. I think he ought to live with the leftists who want to save his sorry ass. One thing I learned even as a child is that leftists ALWAYS want to rule over others but exempt themselves from their silly ideas.

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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/13/2012 6:24:01 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Due process is decided by law, not The Constitution. If due process is deemed to have been met by the law then any punishment that is not cruel and unusual is Constitutional. If the law were to state that a person could be found guilty because 3 people took witness against him/her, and that law was equally applied to all citizens, then due process clauses of The Constitution would have been met.

Again, you are interpreting something into The Constitution that does not exist. There is no mention of endless appeals in either the 5th or the 14th Amendments, which are the Amendments governing due process. So, show me where it states in The Constitution that any criminal is "entitled to exhaust all possible appeals regardless of how long those appeals might take." Please provide the exact text of The Constitution to which you are referring.

-SD-


This is the current interpretation of the Constitution. Changing that would require a Constitutional amendment. How else would you "change" the law. The law in question is NOT a statute. The law in question is the SCOTUS interpretation of "due process". And the the only way to change that is a Constitutional amendment.

How exactly are you proposing to change how "due process" is understood in this country? Armed revolution?

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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/13/2012 6:27:19 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

If it makes you feel any better, I think there should be a time limit imposed. If someone cannot prove their innocence in a few years time, then they should go directly to the chair (gas chamber, etc.).

***

There is nothing unconstitutional about that line of thought. The death penalty is not unconstitutional. The Constitution does not concern itself with how a court can legally use the death penalty, only with how it cannot be implemented (cruel and unusual punishment).

You're using an interpretation of the Constitution. The one you happen to like. It is not the only one.



Please go back and re-read the Constitution. I'm not talking about the death penalty. The issue is due process.

Presumption of innocence is a due process requirement and due process is part of the 5th Amendment of the Bill of Rights. A criminal defendant is not required to prove their innocence. The government must prove their guilt. Due process also means the criminal defendant in a capital case is entitled to exhaust all possible appeals regardless of how long those appeals might take.

You would need a constitutional amendment to revise due process and enable the courts to send someone to the death chamber after a few years if the appeals process is not yet complete. Otherwise such a law would be a violation of the Constitution.
SJust citing facts here.

There's your mistake,silly lawyer, talking facts

Indeedies slavemike, how dare anyone let the facts get in the way of good ole' execution! Where are they at?

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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/13/2012 6:35:18 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

If the 'evidentiary facts' presented in the OP are correct... something is rotten in Denmark.


Agreed....... It wouldnt be the first time cops have got the evidence wrong, and it wont be the last. Both in the US and the UK.




Read an article recently about a former detective describing how cops routinely plant evidence, mostly drugs, so as to up their arrest rate. He said most are released so it's no big deal. Then there was Alan Dershowitz's testimony before Congress way back when. He coined the term 'Testilying'.

It's often not about justice for state and federal prosecutors, it's about their careers.


edit: Here's the thing. Say in five years it comes out the guy is innocent simply because evidence was knowingly misused. Will the prosecutor suffer any real consequence? Nope. Now, if the prosecutor lived under the same penalty should evidence be knowingly misused... perhaps they'd stop?

The problem isn't with due process, it's that due process has been perverted.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 11/13/2012 6:42:03 AM >

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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/13/2012 6:40:45 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If the blood-lustful could insure us no-one gets executed in error.....they might have a moral standing.... 


I've often thought about this, not so much in death penalty cases, but in cases where people have been wrongly convicted and spent years in prison for crimes they didn't commit. It just astonishes me that a system which prides itself on a suspect being "innocent until proven guilty" can somehow "prove" people guilty when they are, in fact, innocent. The implication here is that people are being declared guilty without adequate proof, which is a violation of the principle of "innocent until proven guilty."

I have the perfect solution, however: In any cases where someone is wrongly convicted, the judge and the prosecuting attorney(s) should be held accountable and made to serve the sentence that the wrongly convicted person would have gotten. That would be a little added incentive for them to make doubly sure that they have the right guy.



You might be interested in the following:

Ken Anderson, a former district attorney from Texas for 17 years will soon go before a Texas court of Inquiry for prosecutorial misconduct over the Morton case (Morton was convicted of murdering his wife; prosecuters did not admit a bloodied bandanna into evidence; post-conviction prosecutors tried to block DNA testing of the bandanna; as one might guess, eventually the DNA testing revealed the true killer's identity; Morton was released in 2011 after 25 years in prison - thank goodness he wasn't executed.)

The group who pushed for the DNA testing is called the Innocence Project. I encourage people who care about these types of issues to make a donation to this, or other groups who fight prosecutorial injustice. It happens, and it happens with greater frequency than we like to think, and it destroys people's lives. One other fact to consider - Morton had a 3 year old son. So Morton wrongly ends up in jail for killing his wife and this poor child ends up growing up without either parent. Heartbreaking. An entire family destroyed twice - once by the actual murder, and then again by prosecutorial misconduct.

I also point out the story of Sam Millsap, a former Texas prosector. He once prosecuted a man based on a single eyewitness report - and that man was executed. Later it was discovered that the eye witness was wrong. Sam Millsap now crusades against the death penalty. Bless him for at least being willing to admit he made a mistake, and to try to spend part of his life trying to effect positive change.

Those of you who think you would NEVER be in such a position (either wrongly accused, or making a mistake as a witness, etc.) need to seriously think twice. These protections are there for all of us should we ever end up wrongly accused. And being found "guilty" is not the same as actually being guilty of a crime. Mistakes are made. The process is a human one, and humans are not infallible. Those of you who believe in a god might want to leave the severest part of the punishment to god. I think life sentences are enough. It at least gives the small chance that in a case like Morton's, he might be exonerated. Sort of pointless if was already dead.

How many of you think you are so perfect that you never make a mistake?

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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/13/2012 7:06:54 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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Status: offline 		p.s.

Just wanted to add, that my rejection of the death penalty is because I accept my fallibility as a human being. I am not perfect, and I do not expect anyone to be perfect. So to expect perfection of every single person in the criminal justice system (police officers, detectives, lab professionals, witnesses, prosecutors, public defenders, jurors, judges) seems ridiculous to me. All it takes is one mistake somewhere along the line, and an innocent person could be sent to death. How many of you would want to play those odds?

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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/13/2012 7:17:41 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

p.s.

All it takes is one mistake somewhere along the line, and an innocent person could be sent to death. How many of you would want to play those odds?



Ken Anderson, a former district attorney from Texas for 17 years will soon go before a Texas court of Inquiry for prosecutorial misconduct over the Morton case (Morton was convicted of murdering his wife; prosecuters did not admit a bloodied bandanna into evidence; post-conviction prosecutors tried to block DNA testing of the bandanna; as one might guess, eventually the DNA testing revealed the true killer's identity; Morton was released in 2011 after 25 years in prison - thank goodness he wasn't executed.)

Do you see it? The purposeful blocking of correcting a potential mistake? It's not that people are fallible, but that the Practice of Law is no longer moral.

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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/13/2012 7:28:55 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

p.s.

All it takes is one mistake somewhere along the line, and an innocent person could be sent to death. How many of you would want to play those odds?



Ken Anderson, a former district attorney from Texas for 17 years will soon go before a Texas court of Inquiry for prosecutorial misconduct over the Morton case (Morton was convicted of murdering his wife; prosecuters did not admit a bloodied bandanna into evidence; post-conviction prosecutors tried to block DNA testing of the bandanna; as one might guess, eventually the DNA testing revealed the true killer's identity; Morton was released in 2011 after 25 years in prison - thank goodness he wasn't executed.)

Do you see it? The purposeful blocking of correcting a potential mistake? It's not that people are fallible, but that the Practice of Law is no longer moral.


Yachtie, I'm not disputing your concern. I guess I feel it is not relevant for the purposes of discussing the death penalty whether the error is intentional or unintentional. I gave two examples in my post. One was intentional; the other unintentional (Sam Millsap). For purposes of determining the fairness of the death penalty, my point is any type of error, raises the risk of false conviction. Based on this, I feel it is unconscionable to support use of the death penalty.


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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/13/2012 8:44:04 AM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

This stuff happens all the time before an execution. Teams of idealistic law students pull up everything they can, and throw it all in the air, hoping something will land in just right spot. They take a case that has been through all the layers of lawyers and reviews, and make another appeal in the media. As lawyers making a case might do, they leave out a bit, here and there.



Two things.

Preston Hughes never committed a crime. He has no previous, and he did not commit any crime. This is not another Troy Davis, this is another Cameron Todd Willingham.

The Skeptical Juror J. Bennett Allen isn't an idealistic law student, he's a 64 year old former aerospace engineer from Southern California with no formal legal training.

What has kept Preston Hughes on Death Row in Texas and what is likely to have him executed is the assumption that he is somehow guilty and deserves the death penalty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I believe that some crimes demand the death penalty. I also believe that justice requires getting the right person to the chair/needle/gas chamber/bullet in the back of the head/gallows. Be sure, and then do what the crime demands.


You know in the case of terrorism I'd be inclined to agree with you. In fact I'd even be happy to go one further and save on the public expenses of a trial and a prison cell. I've had the opinion that terrorism warrants special circumstances which exclude criminal justice and declared terrorists and those who support them need to be eliminated. And they need to know that out there, hunting them down is a team of crack commandos so they won't even know anything about the bullet until they drop like a sack of potatoes.

That what happened to Osama Bin Laden, for example. My premise is based on the level of expediency necessary for survival or for the safety of the general public.

But you know now I'm not so sure. And the reason why I'm not so sure is because of cases like Preston Hughes. If you can make something up about someone or misinform them so that others believe they are guilty then that isn't justice.

And it's that not being sure which leads to the fact that the absolutes necessary for the fair and effective implementation of the death penalty simply don't exist within any criminal justice system.

Let us not forget the fact that Preston Hughes is not the only victim here. There's the parents and the family of the murdered children. I'm not a parent, I cannot even begin to imagine what it must be like to lose a child, but I know from losing both parents that the grief remains with you throughout your entire life. That's when you have closure. The family of the victims are never going to have any sense of closure.

The other thing about the death penalty is that it skews the entire purpose of the trial - to establish the truth of what happened, where, when, how and why, and it takes the emphasis away from the victims and the crime and shifts it onto the accused criminal - so that the main point of the trial is whether that person lives or dies.

This for me comes right back to what MLK said about being judged for the content of character and what is expected from 'the country' - or that what exists outside your window or front door. You expect the police to detect and arrest criminals, not beat up innocent members of the public and frame them into crimes. You expect public officials to come clean when there's been a miscarriage of justice, for an inquiry to to held, things put right, and those affected to be released, exonerated and compensated.

Preston Hughes is not expedient, not by any stretch of the imagination and not for any reason - at least not what I can think of. There is no reason why this execution on the 15th cannot be stopped.

I'd like to think of this as an isolated case, something which is unusual, but I don't think it is. In fact I think it's something which takes place much more frequently than we'd like to think, and that some of those seemingly 'guilty' convicted murderers when they say 'I'm innocent' or 'I didn't do it' just before the sodium thiopental flows are actually telling the truth.

There are thousands of convicted prisoners on Death Row throughout the country, and to reexamine every case over and above the existing appeals system would be an enormous expense and take up too many resources.

Therefore I think it comes down to a simple choice of just two options. The first is to take a stand, face the facts that there are no absolutes and to stand in defense of truth, justice, and the sanctity of human life and halt all executions, thereby abolishing the death penalty.

The second option of course is to do nothing and look the other way, pretending that the problems just don't exist.




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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/13/2012 8:49:44 AM   
BoundSlave4Life


Posts: 116
Joined: 7/25/2006
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, he's a black man in a Texas Prison. He's going to get executed.

I'm against the death penalty in cases where there's a decent enough level a doubt to cause people to question the case.

http://madamenoire.com/73840/exonerated-after-execution-12-men-and-one-woman-found-innocent-after-being-put-to-death/


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RE: What do you think? Will Preston Hughes be executed ... - 11/13/2012 9:09:52 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Preston Hughes never committed a crime. He has no previous


Is this true?

From the Houston Chronicle:

Hughes, on probation for a 1985 conviction for aggravated sexual assault of child, was charged with capital murder and held without bond.

If so i would say that a "no previous " is wrong

It seems most here are saying facts are being ignored... yet those very same people are ignoring facts or refusing to comment on them to suit a preconceived notion... at least in my book.

I am not saying there are not inconsistencies but lets at least get some facts straight and stop believing this so called investigator out of hand.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/13/2012 9:13:24 AM >

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RE: Preston Hughes loves leftists - 11/13/2012 10:09:42 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElChupa

I'm sure he's a fine upstanding character. I think he ought to live with the leftists who want to save his sorry ass. One thing I learned even as a child is that leftists ALWAYS want to rule over others but exempt themselves from their silly ideas.

Have you learned anything,anything at all,as an adult ?
I'm thinking not so much,and the funny thing is that some of that stuff we learn,as adults,is real fucking useful

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