RE: Indoctrination

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crazyml -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 11:53:38 AM)
Well... that's just what you get when physicists try to be philosophers ;-) I'm pretty sure I and others would be able to observe that train...

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 12:16:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Didn't Stephen Hawkins disprove most of this?? And you think so why? If one takes the positivist position, as I do, one cannot say what time actually is. All one can do is describe what has been found to be a very good mathematical model for time and say what predictions it makes. ~Stephen Hawking, The Universe In a Nutshell, page 31 K. Doesn't that one statement right there, be in direct contravention/opposition to the general belief that TimeSpace is a fixed constant and thus why observational reality cannot coexist with it? That was your last block of blue text - all about observed reality and why it is never 'real' reality. If, as Stephen Hawking is saying he believes in (positivist position), and thus cannot say what time is, doesn't that fly in the face that TimeSpace is therefore not so fixed and constant as the previous definitions would have us believe? Just a thought. Edit: I also believe that since these extracts you quoted were released, he has since realeased others that appear to show that time travel is possible (albeit within a paradox) and by definition, if space is 'fixed', time cannot be such; ergo, TimeSpace is not constant.

Marc2b -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 12:16:27 PM)
quote: It really exposed the know-nothingism of the local school board in Dover and how easily they became ideological dupes for the Discovery Institute which pushes the pseudo science of Intelligent Design under the false banner of conflict in the Darwinian Model, demanding equal time in the science classroom. Their greatest success has been dumbing down the Evolution content of high school text books. So, while Fitzmiller was a resounding rejection of ID by a Republican appointed judge yet on the basis of the science, it was just one battle, as you say. And the result in Dover was a sad dismembering of many neighborly friendships. Monkey Girl is a rich book and an easy read. Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District I would disagree with the notion that they were dupes of the Discovery Institute. Rather, they were ideological pals who engaged in the same behavior... pushing religion while denying that they were doing so. The hypocrisy is off the scale. They promote a god who they claim is the author of morality yet they constantly lie about their intentions. Judge Jones referred to the actions of the school board as "breathtaking inanity." When a judge (a republican appointed, conservative, church going judge!) says that about you... well... I don't know how those people can show their face in public. There is also an excellent PBS Nova documentary about the trial.

mnottertail -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 12:18:33 PM)
There is no general belief that timespace is a fixed constant. That is so newtonian. Schlau, aber nicht wahr. Al Einstein (maybe you've heard of me?)

Aswad -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 12:20:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess I disagree that religion is more important than science. Moral fabric is important, but religion is not the only path to morality. Religion is indeed not the only path to morality. Morality is, however, axiomatic. You cannot derive morality without axioms. Religion is one source of axioms, one among many. quote: If they really felt religion was more important, they would just pray, and leave it up to god. "More important" is not the same as "right tool for the job". For the job of saving their kid, the right tool would seem to be the one that has a proven track record of working out. Prayer doesn't have any proven track record. And, of course, one might say that if the point was to sit around all day and pray, we wouldn't have had bodies, let alone needed to eat, drink and sleep to even survive. quote: Give it up to god if god and religion are so powerful. Even if God either (a) says otherwise, or (b) doesn't care to take on the job? Something about your reasoning doesn't quite track this time. IWYW, — Aswad.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 12:28:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail There is no general belief that timespace is a fixed constant. That is so newtonian. Schlau, aber nicht wahr. Al Einstein (maybe you've heard of me?) Taken from K's quote of Stephen Hawkings - "Fundamental to the assumption of an objective reality is the assumption that spacetime exists. In quantum theory, spacetime is the absolute, unchanging context in which everything happens". Using the words "unchanging" and "absolute" when describing something means "fixed".

vincentML -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 12:46:30 PM)
quote: In physics, objective reality is defined as that which exists whether or not it is being observed. A fundamental problem with this definition is that it can never be verified by observation because all of our observations, without exception, are purely subjective and can never go beyond the mind (see Section 1.1). ... The chink in this line of reasoning is the omission of reality testing. Even quantum theory and general relativity as a theory of cosmic gravity are subject to reality testing. Sobottka and Kirata remain prisoners of a consciousness bubble that inhibits their ability to reach out and touch reality with the finger of science. As if observation cannot be a verifiable measurement outside of consciousness. I invite Sobottka to test the reality of the oncoming train. I suspect he will find it is REALLY there!

mnottertail -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 12:54:55 PM)
Not even close sport. Space is there it is absolute. Time is there it is absolute. (those are a given in any objective reality) Without space and time spacetime, there is no reality at all, if that be the case you can tell me about before the big bang when there was no spacetime. It is unchanging in that space is dimensional, and it has certain guarenteed properties for every situation (in that, for example, it cannot move faster than the speed of light, nor doe anything happen in space faster than the speed of light, and if it did or does, it is beyond our ken, and does not exist) And far as time? Unchanging. It has to do with the speed of light in space. It holds no real surprise, but many conundrums. Here is Al again: Time, as we understand it, does not flow from present to past. Time does not mean clocks, space does not mean beyond the envelope. Absolute and unchanging is not equivalent in any way to constant and fixed. And to explain it further would lose you more than you are lost now. And the proof is here, this is a trivial conundrum, solve it correctly: At some arbitrary interval mirrors are placed facing each other and an electron is simultaneously shot from each mirror, simultaneously, they are absorbed by each mirror, all according to exact clocks. Did they travel twice the speed of light in any frame of reference?

vincentML -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 12:58:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: It really exposed the know-nothingism of the local school board in Dover and how easily they became ideological dupes for the Discovery Institute which pushes the pseudo science of Intelligent Design under the false banner of conflict in the Darwinian Model, demanding equal time in the science classroom. Their greatest success has been dumbing down the Evolution content of high school text books. So, while Fitzmiller was a resounding rejection of ID by a Republican appointed judge yet on the basis of the science, it was just one battle, as you say. And the result in Dover was a sad dismembering of many neighborly friendships. Monkey Girl is a rich book and an easy read. Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District I would disagree with the notion that they were dupes of the Discovery Institute. Rather, they were ideological pals who engaged in the same behavior... pushing religion while denying that they were doing so. The hypocrisy is off the scale. They promote a god who they claim is the author of morality yet they constantly lie about their intentions. Judge Jones referred to the actions of the school board as "breathtaking inanity." When a judge (a republican appointed, conservative, church going judge!) says that about you... well... I don't know how those people can show their face in public. There is also an excellent PBS Nova documentary about the trial. Ideological pals gives too much intellectual credit to the Board members who voted to substitute or supplement the biology books approved by the teachers. The Discovery Institute encouraged them and then dropped them in the midst of the battle. I forget the name of the defendants' law firm. Anyway, pals or dupes, I think we agree it was a travesty.

searching4mysir -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 1:15:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fellow I do not see a problem. Both are important but religion is more important, and it gets more attention. Religion gives a child cosmic dimension while science adds to it practical aspect for everyday life on Earth. I see it more as religion teaches "why" but science teaches "how". It doesn't have to be either/or. It can be both/and. Not every Christian sees the Bible as a scientific textbook.

ToyOfRhamnusia -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 1:23:57 PM)
I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand... Science is all about OBSERVATIONS that can be verified by other people. And then we use logic to make deductions from those, so we can predict the outcome of some future events. This is greatly helped by using MODELS, which really are nothing but mathematical representation of our observations. When we find great consistency in our observations, we call it "natural law". Science, however, is NOT about what the meaning behind all this might be. It is also not about the reasons why natural laws are what they are. Religion is all about BELIEF. Now that's fine and dandy as long as it does not interfere with observation! But when it tries to argue against observation, it becomes absurd and outright ridiculous! There is room for anyone to believe that there is a god of some sort behind all the science - IN THE REALM WE CANNOT REACH WITH OBSERVATIONS! This also means that the existence of such a god is and will forever remain impossible to prove! But we don't need proof to believe in something. Yet, we definitely need to keep our belief OUT OF CONFLICT WITH OBSERVATION! When we reserve our beliefs to cover ONLY what we CANNOT observe, there will never be any conflict between science and religion.... Here is an interesting view of what belief is all based upon: http://kcfrt.com/the-root-of-belief - it has a LOT to do with indoctrination! And once a belief is formed, it is UNCOMFORTABLE to change it - that's why religious people are so adamant about deceiving both themselves and others about what "truth" is... But the real truth is that cannot ever get to know what the real truth is! All we have to refer to is OBSERVATION - and beyond that, it is all BELIEF.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 1:25:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Not even close sport. Space is there it is absolute. Time is there it is absolute. (those are a given in any objective reality) Without space and time spacetime, there is no reality at all, if that be the case you can tell me about before the big bang when there was no spacetime. It is unchanging in that space is dimensional, and it has certain guarenteed properties for every situation (in that, for example, it cannot move faster than the speed of light, nor doe anything happen in space faster than the speed of light, and if it did or does, it is beyond our ken, and does not exist) And far as time? Unchanging. It has to do with the speed of light in space. It holds no real surprise, but many conundrums. Here is Al again: Time, as we understand it, does not flow from present to past. Time does not mean clocks, space does not mean beyond the envelope. Absolute and unchanging is not equivalent in any way to constant and fixed. And to explain it further would lose you more than you are lost now. And the proof is here, this is a trivial conundrum, solve it correctly: At some arbitrary interval mirrors are placed facing each other and an electron is simultaneously shot from each mirror, simultaneously, they are absorbed by each mirror, all according to exact clocks. Did they travel twice the speed of light in any frame of reference? Sorry to burst that bubble, the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) has discovered particles that travel faster than light [;)] That rather puts that theory to bed. Interestingly, SoL is quoted as within a vacuum most of the time but is extremely variable depending on the density of the medium it is passing through. And 'black holes' completely distort all of our measurements of SoL. Ergo, anything involving SoL is therefore infinitely variable.

ToyOfRhamnusia -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 1:30:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: searching4mysir I see it more as religion teaches "why" but science teaches "how". It doesn't have to be either/or. It can be both/and. Not every Christian sees the Bible as a scientific textbook. Exactly. The information in that book is, in many places, self-contradicting, and what is included in it is definitely subject to human choice! That does not mean that it is all BS, but it does mean that we cannot take anything out of that context - we have to deal with it as we will deal with any other historical remains of the past, and we must apply our critical logic to interpreting its meaning. If you, for instance, just take the references to what Jesus said and compile together, then you arrive at some very fine spiritual teachings that certainly are worth a careful look and definitely could lead to a better world, if all people would understand them. Same Jesus is in multiple places referred to having said, "Render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and render unto God what belongs to God". Very wise words to keep in mind, also when "Caesar" is science....

mnottertail -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 1:32:46 PM)
Sorry to have to call you on that lie. But there is the actual bubble burst. Never happened. Lets see the credible citation (and I know what you are thinking of, it was a glitch, as always). We need to get you up to lightspeed on the issues, you haven't any frame of reference. No material object in the ponderable universe can exceed the speed of light. Al Einstein.

ToyOfRhamnusia -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 1:36:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Sorry to burst that bubble, the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) has discovered particles that travel faster than light [;)] That rather puts that theory to bed. No it doesn't. It only defines a limitation for the model we did not know of before. Newton's laws are not invalid, just because someone later discovered quantum mechanics and relativity. Those new theories just put a limit to the ranges in which we can use Newton to predict event with a certain accuracy - and gives us the tools for what to do in the ranges beyond that. It is very "unscientific" to render good scientific theories and models "invalid" because we discover they have limitations.

mnottertail -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 1:38:55 PM)
http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2012/0223/CERN-researchers-find-flaw-in-faster-than-light-measurement http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/large-hadron-collider/9102355/Large-Hadron-Collider-at-CERN-Einstein-was-right-all-along.html And cut. Print. That's a wrap.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 1:41:43 PM)
Are you saying that (on at least 3 or 4 separate news-worthy occasions) the LHC team lied to everyone and that the film of the particles shown on the screen weren't real?? Sorry, the story you are refering to was about a year or so ago. And yes, it was a mistake and reported as such. There have been other reports since then. I'm sure there must be something on the net somewhere - if they released anything in writing. The last memorable thing I remember from the LHC was about the 'god particle' which was released on 4th July this year. Try googling 'god particle'. Edit: See post #72 - SoL is infinately variable. I was taught that at school - basic physics. It didn't take a whole team of uber-scientists to tell the world there was a flaw in the calculation of SoL. The point was, to quote that things don't happen in Space that are faster than light is obviously a misnomer.

mnottertail -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 1:44:44 PM)
Nope, but that appears to be what you are saying. Nah, fuck that you google god particle. Your knowledge in this area is as faulty as the connection between the GPS the fiber optic cable and the computer. They are looking for the Higgs Boson (the god particle) and it would not move faster than the speed of light, nor would it need to, to do its job.

Moonhead -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 2:15:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail They are looking for the Higgs Boson (the god particle) and it would not move faster than the speed of light, nor would it need to, to do its job. Bo'sun Higgs? I think he was in Monkey Island 2. One of LeChuck's mates. He's a piece of piss to find, it's getting past him that's the problem...

Kirata -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 2:16:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Sobottka and Kirata remain prisoners of a consciousness bubble... A "consciousness bubble" eh? Yeah, that must be it. We should just listen to you. What fools some people are! K.

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