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RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/16/2012 4:20:06 PM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
If I knew that to begin with, I'd have probably suggested a bracelet or an anklet. Maybe something really cute with bells on it. (I know. Some days I'm such a chick.)
.
[/color]


LP tis the season for just such a thing...lil CBT with old school heavy sleigh bells, maybe matching nipple clamps?

Walka away mumbling jingle ball jingle balls subbies on his way...

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/16/2012 4:34:21 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

(gosh it's hard to think up examples where the person would be uncomfortable but not at risk of harm, anyone help me out?)


Since I used the same example a short while ago: human urinals.

Unless the sub has a kidney condition, or the dom/me has a UTI or uses renally excreted medication, this is essentially unproblematic from a harm or health perspective. For most, however, it is probably going to be uncomfortable for the sub every time for a long while before the sub gets used to it. Now, if one gets into the habit of using a sub that way, it may be that the sub in question never does get used to it, in which case one might consider dropping it, but I personally wouldn't, unless it actually caused genuine long term misery (for instance if the sub becomes a wreck that spends every waking moment dreading the next time, with that not being part of our agreed dynamic).

Always glad to help.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/16/2012 4:58:44 PM   
MAINEiacMISTRESS


Posts: 1180
Joined: 9/12/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
(gosh it's hard to think up examples where the person would be uncomfortable but not at risk of harm, anyone help me out?)

Sure... how about real life?

The reason I call Carol "socially submissive" is that she does not just submit to me. She submits to pretty much anyone she runs into that doesn't get dumped into the asshat category. So when I wanted Carol to wear her collar 24/7 I set up a serious problem for her. In her mind she imagines "the public" saying "you must conform" and she wants to obey. On the other hand, I'm saying, "You must stick out like a sore thumb" and she must obey.

The collar was, in fact, deeply meaningful to me...


WOW, I guess I have been really, really lucky with My two Collared subs. Dispite the fact that I chose a Collar style they can easily hide inside their clothing if they so choose, they often BOLDLY show theirs off in many of their outside activities, or rather the pesky thing sometimes just slips out into view and they aren't concerned with hiding it from others' eyes because they take pride in their relationships with Me.
It makes Me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
I feel sad that your subbies are focussed more on the mild discomfort or embarrassment they are feeling, rather than wanting to *join* with you on this matter that you hold dear, but if they don't want to wear a a symbol (that's My interpretation of what they are actually saying here), what can you really do? I don't believe in FORCING a Collar either, then it would have no meaning. As I mentioned in another reply perhaps earrings or another type of piercing would be a suitable compromise.

--MM

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/16/2012 5:00:08 PM   
theSwan


Posts: 48
Joined: 11/12/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

I think the collar has so much deep meaning to so many people that maybe I should have used some other theoretical examples as well. Cynthia, for example, a collar to you is clearly extremely important. If something (anything) meant that much to my dom I would absolutely understand and respect his decision to insist despite my reservations.

How would people react if it was something less charged with emotion? Let's say the dominant wants the sub to always wear a certain type of underwear which the sub finds uncomfortable. Or to always be barefoot at home when the sub often feels chilly. Or to scrub the patio weekly when it ruins their nails?

(gosh it's hard to think up examples where the person would be uncomfortable but not at risk of harm, anyone help me out?)


Your examples were good. Here are some more things I thought of.

o Wake up in the morning when they've never been a morning person.
o Exercise to get in better shape when their body is unaccustomed to exercise.
o Adapt to a different diet that doesn't entirely center around their favorite foods or food they grew up eating.
o Express public displays of affection (that are not illegal) when they have always been too shy to to do.

And for the how people would react.
I feel personally that, if the act of dominance of submission was supposed to extend outside of the bedroom.
I would assume that the dominant had reasons for making these requests and that the submissive would follow them.

Therefore, if the submissive requested that the system were changed.
That the request would have little hope of being changed.

This is under the assumption that the dominant enacted these systems deliberately.
In one of my examples, like say waking up in the morning, if this were merely the dominant's lifestyle.
Then the dominant would have reason to consider whether or not their submissive's discomfort was worth the benefit of having them both awake in the morning.

Essentially, I would be expecting a lot out of the dominant here.

The dominant should never be standing firm on issues out of fear that backing down will limit their power. Their firm stance should come from knowing that what they've requested is what is best. Whether best means healthy for one party or best means pleasing them, thus improving the relationship, at no true harm to their submissive.

The dominant should be making thorough and planned evaluations of their requests so they know it is best.
The dominant should not be taking actions to deliberately set up a submissive to fail unless there is reason (a valuable lesson to be taught, perhaps.)
The dominant should be competent and emotionally sound enough to make decisions for other people that are worth trusting.
The dominant should be willing to re-evaluate their stance based on evidence that their initial judgement is wrong.

All I really think that is needed from the submissive - They shouldn't be making requests that aren't first met with a genuine attempt to follow the request and a bit of soul-searching to discover if the discomfort is either good for them or if the discomfort is really worth asserting that the dominant's judgement is wrong.

Stating that the collar is uncomfortable.
Or stating that you're not a morning person, that your feet are cold in the house, or that the underwear can be painful to wear is an important job of communication on the part of the submissive.
Asking the dominant to change it however, I see as a serious moment when a submissive asks a dominant to reconsider their judgement, if the relationship is forged in trust.

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/16/2012 7:21:34 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS
I feel sad that your subbies are focussed more on the mild discomfort or embarrassment they are feeling, rather than wanting to *join* with you on this matter that you hold dear

You have badly mistaken the situation... and ignored what I wrote. But carry on.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to MAINEiacMISTRESS)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/16/2012 7:47:54 PM   
RemoteUser


Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline 		I've never given a collar that wasn't accepted before it was worn, so it's hard for me to relate to this.

However, if my girl hadn't wanted her collar, I would have sat her down and found out why. After all, I'm not just picking a collar for my visual interest, I want a collar she's proud to wear. I'd be more interested in learning how I wasn't able to pick such a collar than anything else.

She doesn't wear the collar all the time, no way she could. It would invite too many questions about a part of her life she would rather keep to herself, and I'm fine with that. She does wear it when she is with me, or when she pops onto Skype with the cam, instead of just chatting. I've come up with a possible alternative for that, we'll see how that goes and I'll reply back here later with the results. (LP knows what I'm talkin about!)

Likewise, my girl has a ring she wears for me. She wore it every day while she was working in New Mexico, but had to take it off when she got home to avoid questions from people like family. When she comes up here (soon, woohoo!) she'll have it; she'll wear it; and when she goes back she can say it was a gift from Canada (which is true, after a fashion)!

I think when the owner and the owned communicate, and understand the realities of what's expected and what's feasible, there's very little that can't be worked out. Know yourself and know your other, and barring some potent conflict of interests, together all things are possible.


_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.


(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/16/2012 8:20:55 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If I'm going to be in discomfort all the time, I'm not going to be someone you would want to be with. I'm not going to be aroused or arousable. No interest or tolerance for play. I'm not going to be able to focus on doing other things. So expect dinner not to be up to the usual standards because things will burn due to the fact that I can't focus on anything but how miserable I am.

Hell, why not just rub poison ivy on her all the time? It would accomplish the same thing.

I'm not sure why some 'dominants' believe that to be submissive you have to be constantly miserable. It isn't something I subscribe to, nor does he.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 11/16/2012 8:22:36 PM >

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to RemoteUser)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/16/2012 9:37:29 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I'm not sure why some 'dominants' believe that to be submissive you have to be constantly miserable. It isn't something I subscribe to, nor does he.


Whoever said anything about having to be constantly miserable?

It seems to me the general idea here has been that there's a difference between something being unpleasant but tolerable and something actually being untolerable (e.g. due to causing what you're describing).

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/16/2012 10:30:53 PM   
CynthiaWVirginia


Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/28/2010
From: West Virginia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

How would people react if it was something less charged with emotion? Let's say the dominant wants the sub to always wear a certain type of underwear which the sub finds uncomfortable. Or to always be barefoot at home when the sub often feels chilly. Or to scrub the patio weekly when it ruins their nails?

(gosh it's hard to think up examples where the person would be uncomfortable but not at risk of harm, anyone help me out?)


I'm not the type to pick something annoying just for the sake of making him uncomfortable; I have other ways of making him squirm that are more enjoyable. I am seducing him deeper into this...and for us, building positive associations is important.

If I had a patio I wanted scrubbed every week because it looked more lovely that way...and my sub would have her nails ruined...I would try to think of something that would take care of both issues. Like having her wear gloves, after having taped cotton balls to her finger tips, and having her use a big fat scrub brush...or I would simply save up and buy a machine that does the scrubbing and make her use that. M'kay, I am probably missing the point you want to make but this is just how my mind works.

My goal and kink...is for him to find more freedom the deeper he is bound to my will.

If it pushed his buttons and got the results I wanted...by making him uncomfortable and...defaced/ugly/whatever...of course I would push those buttons.

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/16/2012 10:48:05 PM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CynthiaWVirginia


quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

How would people react if it was something less charged with emotion? Let's say the dominant wants the sub to always wear a certain type of underwear which the sub finds uncomfortable. Or to always be barefoot at home when the sub often feels chilly. Or to scrub the patio weekly when it ruins their nails?

(gosh it's hard to think up examples where the person would be uncomfortable but not at risk of harm, anyone help me out?)


I'm not the type to pick something annoying just for the sake of making him uncomfortable; I have other ways of making him squirm that are more enjoyable. I am seducing him deeper into this...and for us, building positive associations is important.

If I had a patio I wanted scrubbed every week because it looked more lovely that way...and my sub would have her nails ruined...I would try to think of something that would take care of both issues. Like having her wear gloves, after having taped cotton balls to her finger tips, and having her use a big fat scrub brush...or I would simply save up and buy a machine that does the scrubbing and make her use that. M'kay, I am probably missing the point you want to make but this is just how my mind works.

My goal and kink...is for him to find more freedom the deeper he is bound to my will.

If it pushed his buttons and got the results I wanted...by making him uncomfortable and...defaced/ugly/whatever...of course I would push those buttons.



Not at all, this is the type of discussion I hoped to provoke.

On reflection, the impression I got from the Master in the thread that inspired me was that he was having the type of dilemma common to new dominants and new relationships - he was doubting his actions and decisions because he was comparing them to what he thought a Master 'should' do. He was considering an ankle cuff alternative to the collar, but was concerned this might be wrong from a domly point of view because it might be perceived as a weakness and suggest he could be manipulated. So it is interesting to see the consensus of replies from experienced dominants which mostly suggests compromise in most situations with a valid complaint.

The original poster also gave the slight impression that he wasn't 100% convinced this was a genuine problem for her and not a bit of pouting, but I left that out of the equation because to me that indicates bigger problems and doesn't make for such an interesting discussion.

edit for formatting

< Message edited by AthenaSurrenders -- 11/16/2012 10:49:48 PM >

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to CynthiaWVirginia)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/17/2012 2:32:36 AM   
RaspberryLemon


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/18/2011
Status: offline 		If I have a legitimate and reasonable complaint, he will generally rethink his orders--either rescind it or adapt it into something that works. He knows that I would never be dishonest to him and that if I have a complaint, it is heartfelt and accurate. To him, my input is essential and valuable--he wants it so he can work with it. And I do need to know that he cares about my happiness and comfort.

There are times that my complaints do not change his direction, but only when that is the practical course (i.e. the best overall decision in the situation.) He doesn't stick with something that could/should be changed just because of some sense that if he didn't, I'd get "uppity" and start complaining just to get away with things. In my opinion that would be dishonest(underhanded,) pointless, juvenile, and bad leadership on his part, as well as an indication that he does not trust me to be honest and to follow his lead.

So I definitely would not want him to hold firm on an order purely for the sake of holding firm on it. I want him to make his decisions based on what he thinks is best for us, not based on a silly paranoia about a loss in power if he takes my input into account. At the same time, I am not so small-minded to think that my complaints are always the most important thing. Sometimes, in the big picture, other factors are more important and I trust him to make the best decision taking all available information into account.

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/17/2012 5:49:08 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: theSwan

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

I think the collar has so much deep meaning to so many people that maybe I should have used some other theoretical examples as well. Cynthia, for example, a collar to you is clearly extremely important. If something (anything) meant that much to my dom I would absolutely understand and respect his decision to insist despite my reservations.

How would people react if it was something less charged with emotion? Let's say the dominant wants the sub to always wear a certain type of underwear which the sub finds uncomfortable. Or to always be barefoot at home when the sub often feels chilly. Or to scrub the patio weekly when it ruins their nails?

(gosh it's hard to think up examples where the person would be uncomfortable but not at risk of harm, anyone help me out?)


Your examples were good. Here are some more things I thought of.

o Wake up in the morning when they've never been a morning person.
o Exercise to get in better shape when their body is unaccustomed to exercise.
o Adapt to a different diet that doesn't entirely center around their favorite foods or food they grew up eating.
o Express public displays of affection (that are not illegal) when they have always been too shy to to do.

And for the how people would react.
I feel personally that, if the act of dominance of submission was supposed to extend outside of the bedroom.
I would assume that the dominant had reasons for making these requests and that the submissive would follow them.

Therefore, if the submissive requested that the system were changed.
That the request would have little hope of being changed.

This is under the assumption that the dominant enacted these systems deliberately.
In one of my examples, like say waking up in the morning, if this were merely the dominant's lifestyle.
Then the dominant would have reason to consider whether or not their submissive's discomfort was worth the benefit of having them both awake in the morning.

Essentially, I would be expecting a lot out of the dominant here.

The dominant should never be standing firm on issues out of fear that backing down will limit their power. Their firm stance should come from knowing that what they've requested is what is best. Whether best means healthy for one party or best means pleasing them, thus improving the relationship, at no true harm to their submissive.

The dominant should be making thorough and planned evaluations of their requests so they know it is best.
The dominant should not be taking actions to deliberately set up a submissive to fail unless there is reason (a valuable lesson to be taught, perhaps.)
The dominant should be competent and emotionally sound enough to make decisions for other people that are worth trusting.
The dominant should be willing to re-evaluate their stance based on evidence that their initial judgement is wrong.

All I really think that is needed from the submissive - They shouldn't be making requests that aren't first met with a genuine attempt to follow the request and a bit of soul-searching to discover if the discomfort is either good for them or if the discomfort is really worth asserting that the dominant's judgement is wrong.

Stating that the collar is uncomfortable.
Or stating that you're not a morning person, that your feet are cold in the house, or that the underwear can be painful to wear is an important job of communication on the part of the submissive.
Asking the dominant to change it however, I see as a serious moment when a submissive asks a dominant to reconsider their judgement, if the relationship is forged in trust.



Hi Swan, just wanted to say I , for one are really enjoying your posts. Thank you!


_____________________________

I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

(in reply to theSwan)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/17/2012 1:33:53 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		If Master gave me a collar that was uncomfortable I would tell him about it being uncomfortable. If he told me he didn't care then I would shrug my shoulders and continue to wear it. His word is law.

Thankfully most times Master does not want me to be uncomfortable on a daily basis with such things which is why I'm glad to have my bracelets instead of a neck collar. He knows that I have eczema and wearing something around my neck 24/7 would cause me rashes no matter what the material is.

Now there are some things he doesn't care if it's uncomfortable or not. That's the purpose. I live and let live. That's just how it is. If I don't like it I am always free to say no and walk out the door.

Besides, if I said it was uncomfortable, Master would give me a choice between that and something else and with Master, the something else is always worse than the original item.


_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/18/2012 8:25:34 AM   
Salinedion


Posts: 198
Joined: 5/25/2012
Status: offline 		Being the boss is an honor and a responsibility. Why am I doing all this great kinky stuff? Because it's hot and it makes us feel more intimately connected.

She's claustophobic at the upper medium range. Violating that wouldn't be hot and it wouldn't improve our love. What rational Boss sets up his underling for misery?

On the other hand, we both really love a bit of force in our mix. If, on a scale of 1-10, her objection is a 5 or less, stuff is going to go my way, period. 6-7? It almost never comes up since we're so well-matched, but I'd still say my way 80% of the time, probably with some moderation. 8+? 'Can't imagine my pushing the envelope, given the enormous good faith and service she shows me every day.

Even in real life, trafficked women or African camel slave lives there is give and take. We view our dynamic as very alive and evolving, rather than something that we set in stone.

_____________________________

I hate the 'reply to' note at the end of the post. Just assume I'm posting to the board at large and not the person above me unless I say diff, OK?

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/19/2012 8:36:57 AM   
Lucifyre


Posts: 1067
Joined: 3/27/2012
Status: offline 		Mr's and my 24/7 D/s relationship's success is wholly dependant on one major thing....honesty.
That holds true for everything we do, including things that make me uncomfortable or unhappy.
Like others that have already replied, if it is a slight discomfort then yes, I have to suck it up...tough shit.
But if the something is causing me real distress, then He will adapt His order or directive to something we can both live with better.

It is my job as His property to tell Him directly and honestly how I am feeling about a particular thing, whether it is wearing a symbol of our D/s 24/7 (my bracelets) or sleeping with cuffs on (every night) or He didn't use enough lube or something feels REALLY fucking amazing (please don't stop that any time soon Sir). But as I have stated in many other posts here, He is not a mind reader. If I don't do my job in communicating to Him exactly and truthfully what's going on, then He is not able to continue in the same direction or make adjustments accordingly.

No *thing* is more important than the relationship between us. While He will force me to do some things that make me uncomfortable or even unhappy for a time, after a certain period of adjustment or a trial period, if the thing or the action truely interferes with the underlying goal, then it gets changed. If it is simply making me a bit fidgity or squeemish then well...I gotta suck it up.

Lucifyre

_____________________________

"Batteries? OMG, Bitch Please! My Shit plugs in!"
I do this because it fucking feels good.
I like girls who like girls
The thing about standards is: There are SO many to choose from.

(in reply to Salinedion)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/19/2012 9:40:33 AM   
Mishna


Posts: 70
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		I've been lucky so far. This isn't a battle I've had to choose to fight or not. My sub is willing to endure whatever discomfort I've decided is appropriate, and will not complain about it. However, that means I must pay closer attention to his welfare, as he can take a lot, but shouldn't always. So, he would suck it up until I chose for him not to.

(in reply to SeekingTrinity)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/19/2012 11:03:17 AM   
theSwan


Posts: 48
Joined: 11/12/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Hi Swan, just wanted to say I , for one are really enjoying your posts. Thank you!



I'm honored, thank you. -Smiles-

(in reply to chatterbox24)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Suck it up, Buttercup - 11/19/2012 3:11:06 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline 		If I deem whatever it is I want her to do/wear to be important to me. She will do as she is told. Yes it's really that simple. As I have told her in the past. "Shut the fuck up and take it for me" That is how our dynamic rolls.

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to SeekingTrinity)
Profile   Post #: 58
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