RE: Liberalism

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Liberalism

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Liberalism

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 10:53:04 AM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

FR

Liberals can be authoritarian and anti free speech.

So can conservatives.

Posted just so anyone claiming otherwise might wake up and smell the java.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to subspaceseven)

Post #: 21

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 11:00:14 AM

subspaceseven

Posts: 467
Joined: 3/2/2012
Status: offline

I'm so tired of the BS line "well both sides do it...Show me, where have Dems had the same level of personal attacks on Bush????? Show me where they said Bush had no birth right to be President??? Show me where the Dems not supporters asked for Bush to lose so the country could move forward??? Show me where the DEM's said they would not follow federal law when the GOP had the WH during WAR????

The point of the thread was socialism, and I showed where a GOP VP candidate supported this type of socialism...where is the outrage from the GOP???

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 22

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 11:05:29 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
spreading the payment over those that engage in the risks,

I doubt the amount of tax collected (in any country) comes close to paying the actual health & related costs for their smokers once they do get directly or indirectly sick from smoking..

Since 1998, governments at all levels have collected more than $444 BILLION in cigarette taxes and payments from smokers.

Settlement payments, federal, and state and local taxes on cigarettes for fiscal year 2011 amounted to more than $44.5 BILLION.
- Federal excise taxes - $15,101,077,000
- State and local excise taxes - $17,781,272,000
- State cigarette sales taxes - $4,240,744,000
- Tobacco settlement payments - $7,088,376,000

The government per-pack profit from cigarettes in 2011 was $3.68 (or 66 percent of the cost of a pack of cigarettes); more than ten times the profit of R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company

http://www.rjrt.com/taxpays.aspx

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 23

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 11:16:50 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I doubt the amount of tax collected (in any country) comes close to paying the actual health & related costs for their smokers once they do get directly or indirectly sick from smoking..

At $16 for a 20-pack of cigarettes in Norway (no, I don't smoke, but I checked), I'm not sure.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 24

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 11:18:20 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: theshytype

Anyway, I'm assuming there are a few people on here that would be very interested in a slave dressed in silk.

Hell, yes. Do you have any to spare?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to theshytype)

Post #: 25

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 11:22:38 AM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceseven

I'm so tired of the BS line "well both sides do it...Show me, where have Dems had the same level of personal attacks on Bush????? Show me where they said Bush had no birth right to be President??? Show me where the Dems not supporters asked for Bush to lose so the country could move forward??? Show me where the DEM's said they would not follow federal law when the GOP had the WH during WAR????

The point of the thread was socialism, and I showed where a GOP VP candidate supported this type of socialism...where is the outrage from the GOP???

The level of venom aimed at Bush was substantial, certainly around here... not so much from the Dem politicians, in part to the freshness of the 9/11 wounds.

Anywho, I wasn't talking that, so...

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to subspaceseven)

Post #: 26

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 11:49:01 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

Lets break this particular issue down to its very basic level and see if you still want to apply labels to it.

In essence one side of this issue sees smoking as a health hazard that kills and or raises the cost of health insurance to all…They try to find a way to protect children from the ill affects of smoking…How... Well by requiring a license. So bottom line they want to save the lives of their children and yours. Lets call them liberal.

In essence the other side believes everyone has a right to make an individual decision on their health without interference from government regulations. If they want to smoke and kill themselves and their children they have the god given, and constitutional right to do it. Lets call them stupid…. I mean conservative.

Who do I agree with... why the conservatives of course… Our population needs to be thinned of idiots and liberals may mess it all up.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/16/2012 11:50:32 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 27

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 11:49:09 AM

Marc2b

Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Given that George Orwell was a liberal himself, that's rather hard to credit. Care to show your working out for that one?

Orwell was a socialist... but he was dismayed by the fact that leftists could be just as authoritarian as rightists, hence Animal Farm and 1984.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 28

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 11:53:46 AM

Marc2b

Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Except for a few people who cross state lines and spend $20 for gas to save $10 on a carton of smokes thus demonstrating their overwhelming intelligence, where is this big underground tobacco market?

Hell I don't have to cross state lines. I just have to drive 11 miles to the Tuscarora Reservation and pay only $20 for a carton of cigarettes that off the Reservation would cost me $80 to $100.

I also save $0.20 a gallon on gas.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 29

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 12:08:00 PM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Given that George Orwell was a liberal himself, that's rather hard to credit. Care to show your working out for that one?

Orwell was a socialist... but he was dismayed by the fact that leftists could be just as authoritarian as rightists, hence Animal Farm and 1984.

He did have his fears -

… it is quite easy to imagine a world society, economically collectivist — that is, with the profit principle eliminated — but with all political, military and educational power in the hands of a small caste of rulers and their bravos. That or something like it is the objective of fascism. And that, of course, is the slave state, or rather the slave world… It is against this beastly possibility that we have got to combine

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 30

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 12:56:31 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

http://www.rjrt.com/taxpays.aspx

That is only part of the equation.. where are the US related health cost figures? given how expensive health care is in the US (now that the US has national health care), the $$$ money collected can be eaten up pretty darn quick.. There are various diseases and health costs that can happen even years after a person stops smoking.. My mother (who smoked most of her life) had stomach cancer.. smokers can get stomach cancer even 10 years after they quit.. The problem with figuring out the costs of smoking is that a person might not get sick from it until decades later.. like when they are seniors and on medicare & get extra govt coverage for meds, etc.. thats when the govt is really on the hook..

Of course all that tax has gone into general revenue (to be spent on wars & bailouts) and not into funding future health costs..

There are other costs, like the loss of productivity and personal health care expenses (for those without a health plan) & perhaps bankruptcy, the cost of kids taking care of their parents.. etc..

Its gonna be interesting to see how things shake out with the US govt deficit in the next decade or two.. when boomers are all retired and straining SS & medicare..

of course, junk food & a poor diet is just as dangerous to health as cigs are..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 31

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 1:12:42 PM

Louve00

Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I would never discuss liberalism with a fox-news-alt-reality-con.........waste of time and one would have to spend a hour just to deprogram the BS 1st.

This! Except you can't deprogram them. They're hellbent on ignorance and keeping themselves in the dark ages. If by chance a liberal could lead them to water, they'd call it kool-aid and die of dehydration. At least, they're faithful to their beliefs, whether you have facts to prove otherwise or not.

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 11/16/2012 1:13:15 PM >

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 32

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 1:14:54 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

There was for many years a scandal in the tobacco industry here about how they made it more addictive intentionally.

The cost break down was 193 billion a year... half for actual medical costs.. and half for down time and related costs...

$96.8 billion in productivity losses ....Accounting for direct health-care expenditures and productivity losses (approximately $97 billion), the total economic burden of smoking is approximately $193 billion per year.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5745a3.htm

Do we take in enough? According to the CDC, no.

This is a perfect example of an industry that was allowed to do as it wished to pad its bottom line.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 33

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 1:20:27 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
spreading the payment over those that engage in the risks,

I doubt the amount of tax collected (in any country) comes close to paying the actual health & related costs for their smokers once they do get directly or indirectly sick from smoking..

That'd be quite wrong for the UK. The higher end of the estimated costs of tobacco smoking are about £5 billion. The government gets about £10 billion in tax. The first figure would come closer to the second if smokers were to live longer; the government saves quite a chunk there, of course, on not just health costs but pensions and other old people's benefits.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 34

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 1:21:07 PM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

There was for many years a scandal in the tobacco industry here about how they made it more addictive intentionally.

The cost break down was 193 billion a year... half for actual medical costs.. and half for down time and related costs...

$96.8 billion in productivity losses ....Accounting for direct health-care expenditures and productivity losses (approximately $97 billion), the total economic burden of smoking is approximately $193 billion per year.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5745a3.htm

Do we take in enough? According to the CDC, no.

This is a perfect example of an industry that was allowed to do as it wished to pad its bottom line.

Reminds me of a coworker years ago whining because he wasn't paid as much as some people in the company.
I looked and told him. "You don't fucking WORK as much as they do. Half the damn day, you're out in the parking lot sucking on a cigarette".

I wasn't appreciated.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 35

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 1:23:02 PM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Given that George Orwell was a liberal himself, that's rather hard to credit. Care to show your working out for that one?

Orwell was a socialist... but he was dismayed by the fact that leftists could be just as authoritarian as rightists, hence Animal Farm and 1984.

I don't think Big Brother's ideology was ever specified, though he was more likely right leaning given when the book was written.
Animal Farm was a specific attack on Stalin (and a pretty devastating one at that), but Orwell's beef was more that Stalin wasn't much of a leftist or commie, surely?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 36

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 1:23:12 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

That'd be quite wrong for the UK. The higher end of the estimated costs of tobacco smoking are about £5 billion. The government gets about £10 billion in tax. The first figure would come closer to the second if smokers were to live longer; the government saves quite a chunk there, of course, on not just health costs but pensions and other old people's benefits.

Similar figures hold true here in Norway; the calculated expense is lower than the sin tax, last I checked.

In fact, it appears to even compensate for the GDP loss from smoke breaks.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 37

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 1:27:22 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Given that George Orwell was a liberal himself, that's rather hard to credit. Care to show your working out for that one?

Orwell was a socialist... but he was dismayed by the fact that leftists could be just as authoritarian as rightists, hence Animal Farm and 1984.

I don't think Big Brother's ideology was ever specified, though he was more likely right leaning given when the book was written.
Animal Farm was a specific attack on Stalin (and a pretty devastating one at that), but Orwell's beef was more that Stalin wasn't much of a leftist or commie, surely?

Some have called Orwell a kind of 'conservative anarchist'. He retained strong left-wing views till the end but disliked a lot of his nominally lefty contemporaries. He was odd. Mostly he was about disillusionment with the Stalin project. Just as well he didn't turn that bitterness into another Ayn Rand ideology, thank God.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 38

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 1:29:41 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Some have called Orwell a kind of 'conservative anarchist'. He retained strong left-wing views till the end but disliked a lot of his nominally lefty contemporaries. He was odd. Mostly he was about disillusionment with the Stalin project. Just as well he didn't turn that bitterness into another Ayn Rand ideology, thank God.

The fact that you would even discuss this makes you so hot right now.

I know, I know...... Off Topic.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 39

RE: Liberalism - 11/16/2012 1:34:42 PM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
That'd be quite wrong for the UK. The higher end of the estimated costs of tobacco smoking are about £5 billion. The government gets about £10 billion in tax.

How does that work? You can't raise twice as much tax revenue from something as people are spending on it...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 40

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Liberalism

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.078