RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe

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Politesub53 -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/18/2012 12:28:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SeekProperty2Own Just laws reflect culture, it is not the business of the men with guns to seek to change it. This is known as "The Consent of the Governed." Your post makes no sense. This is known as "the consent of spouting nonsense"

Phoenixpower -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/18/2012 12:43:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess My personal feeling as an American who has lived and worked in many places in this world is that many Europeans are much more racist than the average American. I speak from first hand knowledge. Now...I haven't been enough around in the US to "judge" it, but considering that on quite a few occations I read on these boards that racism is still quite an issue in the US...I am not so sure if this is more an issue in Europe than the US....

Phoenixpower -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/18/2012 12:49:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub It just seems we here in the US have a greater diversity in opinions then a good part of the western world. On almost every issue US posters will differ when almost always European and Canadian views are close to monolithic. But isn't it, too...that on this board are way more Americans than Europeans? In which case I would not really name it a valid conclusion...I have in many points different views (for example I find your social safety net scary, am against the gun law you have and am against death penalty) however...it really doesn't bother me as I don't live in your country. I have relatives who travel to the US every summer for a few weeks holiday trip, they enjoy their holidays in america, but they would not want to live there, especially due to the social safety net difference. I am happy for you when it is ok for you....however, I am glad that I do know that a severe illness over here (like the recent cancer from my mum) won't put her at risk of losing her house.... After all....many of us value what we have...cause that's how we know it (in many instances) [:)] and any potential change is scary for a lot of people [:)]

subrob1967 -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/18/2012 1:10:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess My personal feeling as an American who has lived and worked in many places in this world is that many Europeans are much more racist than the average American. I speak from first hand knowledge. Now...I haven't been enough around in the US to "judge" it, but considering that on quite a few occations I read on these boards that racism is still quite an issue in the US...I am not so sure if this is more an issue in Europe than the US.... It's not. Racial issues are being manipulated by the progressive politicians here in the US for political favor. We have a Black President, have had black Secretaries of State, and Defense, and as leaders of the two major political parties here in the US. The only time race is an issue here is when a left leaning politician uses it to try and gain votes from the minority.

mnottertail -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/18/2012 1:13:16 PM)
Otherwise, you giving a pass on the lilly white motherfuckers that Barney Frank gave loans they couldn't afford to, while all the black folk cryed out in horror? Cuz we know it was all republican armchair chickenhawks.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/18/2012 2:00:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess My personal feeling as an American who has lived and worked in many places in this world is that many Europeans are much more racist than the average American. I speak from first hand knowledge. Now...I haven't been enough around in the US to "judge" it, but considering that on quite a few occations I read on these boards that racism is still quite an issue in the US...I am not so sure if this is more an issue in Europe than the US.... Well, I'm not white. And I am speaking from personal experience. As someone who is not white, I am much, much happier to be in America than I would be to be in Europe. I still think it is easier to make it in America despite one's background, than it is in Europe. Europe is still bound by racial, religious and class issues that make it very hard, if you are not already white, upper class and of the dominant religion, to be successful professionally. I was born and raised here, and the moment I open my mouth to speak, other Americans accept me as "American". That kind of acceptance is not really what exists in Europe. Ask the Algerian-French or Turkish-Germans how accepted they feel in their societies, especially those who were born and raised there. http://www.dw.de/germans-warm-up-to-immigration-but-miss-the-point-say-experts/a-15486818 Not to mention that the rise of right-wing parties in many European countries is often tied to both anti-immigrant and simply openly racist rhetoric. I am not claiming, btw, that racism is not an issue in the U.S. I am just pointing out that racism is alive and well in Europe, too. And given my personal experiences, I am very glad my ancestors chose to settle in America, and not Europe (and they had a choice). Others, I am sure will have other perspectives. I can only speak to what I have experienced both here and in Europe. [sm=2cents.gif]

YN -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/18/2012 2:44:46 PM)
The theory posited here in this thread as that Europeans are generally "leftists" or not racists is not validated by any evidence, and any casual glance at their history shows quite the opposite. Most of Europe live in nations with monarchs, state churches (or like Germany collect taxes on behalf of the churches) , with nobility or some similar class of aristocracy monopoly controlling the means of production to large extents, and have long term history's of race and class based slavery and servitude, never mind the current rigid class based structures, and many are recently responsible for the commission of race and ethnic motivated atrocities both at home and planet wide. When they are not attempting to use military force to rob non-Europeans. The Latin American and other world commentaries on European policies and politics normally contains terms that translate as insular, reactionary, conformist, authoritarian, nationalistic, Euro-centric and racist. While the Europeans in general congratulate themselves on what wonderful socially aware people they are, and even award themselves peace prizes for no European genocide in a decade or two, those who inspect their works, even the recent ones soon reach another conclusion. "Judge them by their works" Most of Europe is politically at best center right.

subrob1967 -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/18/2012 3:16:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Otherwise, you giving a pass on the lilly white motherfuckers that Barney Frank gave loans they couldn't afford to, while all the black folk cryed out in horror? Cuz we know it was all republican armchair chickenhawks. Those minority gay white American males? Are they the guys you're talking about Ron?

Politesub53 -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/18/2012 3:42:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess My personal feeling as an American who has lived and worked in many places in this world is that many Europeans are much more racist than the average American. I speak from first hand knowledge. Now...I haven't been enough around in the US to "judge" it, but considering that on quite a few occations I read on these boards that racism is still quite an issue in the US...I am not so sure if this is more an issue in Europe than the US.... It's not. Racial issues are being manipulated by the progressive politicians here in the US for political favor. We have a Black President, have had black Secretaries of State, and Defense, and as leaders of the two major political parties here in the US. The only time race is an issue here is when a left leaning politician uses it to try and gain votes from the minority. Agreed Rob.......Republicans never make race an issue in the US [8\|] Dont you ever tire of making such silly posts ?

Aswad -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/18/2012 5:20:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub It just seems we here in the US have a greater diversity in opinions then a good part of the western world. I have met people that range from hard line communists to free market capitalists, from fascist through socialist to libertarian, from secular to fundamentalist, from ultrafeminist to antisuffragette, anarchists, pro choice, pro life, pro capital punishment, and any of a number of other positions. Media here don't give as much screen time to the fringes, s'all. Else, you would see a lot more diversity. quote: On almost every issue US posters will differ when almost always European and Canadian views are close to monolithic. Or at least it seems that way to me. It seems that way because of two main factors, (a) our right begins where your left ends, (b) you're often seeing us on topics where the jury is in as to what works. Realize that we've already done most of what you do, at one point or another, in our different countries, and we've found ways to get good results. All countries in Europe look to each other to see what models are good and bad on various points, and emulate each other's good sides, to the extent national sentiments allow. We don't play politics by the seat of our pants, and we've had a fair bit of time to deal with some of the issues you're just starting to work on (but, by contrast, we're just now learning the issues that come with ethnic and cultural diversity). As fucktoyprincess says, you'll start to see some real crazy shit if you have a closer look. IWYW, — Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/18/2012 5:29:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower I am not so sure if this is more an issue in Europe than the US.... Speaking as a Norwegian here, you're wrong. Xenophobia and racism is pervasive in Norwegian culture. We're just generally too polite to go bashing people's heads in over it. You notice it by the little things. The way the guy at the cash register is being cheerful and talking to everyone; then a black guy or some middle eastern fellow comes up, and there's no smile, not a word, just the sum, exchange the money, thank you, next person; then the smile is back and the conversation resumes. If you're a white male Norwegian like me, you might not notice it. But if you're a Turk that came here as a child and can't remember anything but living here, you're absolutely aware that you're a second rate citizen to most of the people here. And if, like me, you're the sort that pays attention to these things, you'll see it everywhere, to the point that you feel a distinct need to reach out to these people to actively let them know that we're not all like that, let them know that they're not alone, that the majority does consider them fellow citizens on par with the rest. I would estimate about one in three Norwegians are racist, but I could be too optimistic. IWYW, — Aswad.

kdsub -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/18/2012 8:08:17 PM)
quote: Else, you would see a lot more diversity Aswad I think maybe you misunderstood me...or I did not make myself clear...I am talking about the European and Canadian posters on these boards. This is the only daily interaction I have with people outside the US so the only way I can judge. Will you not agree that on these boards we have a good mix of liberals, conservatives, and independents posting from the United States? And would you not also agree that the vast majority of posters from Canada and Europe would be considered liberal...at least by conservative standards in the US? Thus we have more diversity of thought in the US on these boards. The above is only an observation not a judgment And in context to the original post I was only trying to say you folks often overlook your problems yet feel free to judge ours. And perhaps our people are not so different in their views as those posting from outside the US would have us believe. Butch

Politesub53 -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/19/2012 3:09:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Else, you would see a lot more diversity Aswad I think maybe you misunderstood me...or I did not make myself clear...I am talking about the European and Canadian posters on these boards. This is the only daily interaction I have with people outside the US so the only way I can judge. Will you not agree that on these boards we have a good mix of liberals, conservatives, and independents posting from the United States? And would you not also agree that the vast majority of posters from Canada and Europe would be considered liberal...at least by conservative standards in the US? Thus we have more diversity of thought in the US on these boards. The above is only an observation not a judgment And in context to the original post I was only trying to say you folks often overlook your problems yet feel free to judge ours. And perhaps our people are not so different in their views as those posting from outside the US would have us believe. Butch Fair points Butch, but maybe thats due to the wide ranging view of right wing Americans on here..... That any social policies MUST be socialist, and therefore left leaning. This is why all Europeans on here say you (generic) have no clue what real socialism, let alone communism, is. I have lost count how often I have said I supported Thatcher and vote Conservative and consider myself centre right. All I get back is the same lame "Leftie, socialist, commie" bullshit comments. Aswad has it spot on in that many of what works and what doesnt arguments have long since been settled in Europe. If anything the UK is seen as "Too close" to America, not disjointed from it. Racism or nationalism does exist here, it quietly bubbles under the surface, usually fanned by hard economical times. It seems worse in Eastern Europe but maybe thats a reaction to the yoke of communism being shrugged off. Not that communists cant be racist as well. As for judging your problems. Do you forget how I used to argue with Stella or Meatcleaver or Moonie on problems within UK politics. If you look at UK posters regards Iraq, while we all give GWB stick over the issue, more venom is reserved for Tony Blair. If you look at racism, all of us have at one point gone on about the scum in the English Defence League or BNP. If you look at child abuse, the issue in the UK doesnt exactly get a free pass on here.

blnymph -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/19/2012 5:40:08 AM)
In general I guess from an American point of view most European posting here appear "liberal-left" - to interpret that fact as wider variety of American political culture is pretty wild though since many positions and statements of the "American conservative" would equally appear far outside right wing if not something very close to Italian (Neo-) fascism or German (Neo-) Nazism in a European context - we had that already, and got luckily and happily past it (with the help of the USA-and many thanks for that). And yes these things exist in Europe too with slight national differences (as usual with Nationalists) at an average rate of about 2 - 10 % of voting population (and with then political Racism too, openly or a bit more under the surface). But not as some 50-50 ratio dividing a nation, as is does appear to be in the US. The American right positions would not get anything close to 10 % of votes here (with some temporary exceptions ...). Fact is: the issues so hot-bloodedly discussed here by US posters and in US society have been discussed in Europe centuries, or decades, or (with gay marriage: years) ago, and a majority of central-left-right liberals+conservatives+socialdemocrats/labour have all agreed in principle to have these things: separation of religion and politics, social security since 19th century, equal rights, gun regulations 20th c., abolition of death penalty since the 50s, abortions since the 70s, gay marrage from the 90s on ... I know many of these arguments I can read posted here and there by US right-wings from the past discussions here in Europe, and they appeared in Europe too, but were far from majority then and even less so now - they are now to be read in history books ... there are a few 90%+ catholic countries still having trouble with abortions, as Ireland, Poland, Malta - no doubt, and these things should have been settled for a long time, and the EU helped, and still helps to get these things slowly forward. What happened now is especially tragic as the usual way of getting an abortion for an Irish woman - get on the next plane or boat to the UK ... - has not, or could no longer be used as a quick solution "around the present law situation" ... apart from that - especially when I talk to the generation of my parents or grandparents I always hear the same statement: the EU has established so many good and useful things for (almost) everybody that a "back to the old nation states like before" is hardly an option to be taken seriously, despite British conservatives, German Mark sentimentality and nationalists of whatever kind. The Europeans - I think - have made the experience for quite a while that they all are Europeans, and still Germans, French, Greek, Irish, Finns, ... so what. And reading the European posters here tells me that we obviously do really have quite a few things in common.

Aswad -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/19/2012 9:02:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Aswad I think maybe you misunderstood me...or I did not make myself clear. It's probably me. quote: Will you not agree that on these boards we have a good mix of liberals, conservatives, and independents posting from the United States? A mix, at least. quote: And would you not also agree that the vast majority of posters from Canada and Europe would be considered liberal...at least by conservative standards in the US? As I said, our right generally starts where your left ends, when we're talking mainstream opinions. quote: Thus we have more diversity of thought in the US on these boards. I'm not sure that's how I would describe it. quote: I was only trying to say you folks often overlook your problems yet feel free to judge ours. When have I ever failed to criticize the numerous problems in Norway that make me look around for alternative places to live? When have I failed to recognize that the USA has several good points? IWYW, — Aswad.

kdsub -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/19/2012 9:06:45 AM)
I am not sure your 10 percent is accurate… For instance take Capital Punishment…posters from Canada and Europe are almost all against death penalty…Yet… Recent polls show 77 percent of Britons supporting it’s reintroduction. 50 percent of the French and Italians …even 49 percent of Swedes want the return of CP. At least according to Rasmusen’s polls. When it comes to support of Israel… 47 percent of Europeans think Israel is having a negative effect on the world where in the US 35 percent say the same...not 10 percent here either. Same sex marriage polls I could find show European Union is around 53 percent for. Americans are 54 percent in favor…not 10 percent. I could go on with each major issue in the news and surprisingly people of the western world are far closer in their views then posters here on CM would have us believe. Butch

kdsub -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/19/2012 9:11:35 AM)
quote: When have I ever failed to criticize the numerous problems in Norway that make me look around for alternative places to live? When have I failed to recognize that the USA has several good points? Most likely I don't read your posts on the issues you state above because of my choice in subjects. Not your fault of course. Butch

crazyml -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/19/2012 9:21:07 AM)
Ello! I'd be genuinely interested in seeing info on the recent polls that have 77% of British people in support of the death penalty - Those figures seemed very high when I read them, and this link http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/3802 suggests it's far closer to 50/50. I'm really happy to be corrected though! ED to add... Here's some info on attitudes towards same-sex marriage. We do have the concept of "civil partnership" which could potentially confuse the issue.. but support does seem to be higher than 53%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_Kingdom#Public_opinion

kdsub -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/19/2012 9:36:30 AM)
As all polls there is a variance...but the point i was trying to make is the 10 percent post of agreement in American views is wrong in some areas.. HERE Butch

GoddessInanna -> RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe (11/19/2012 9:44:17 AM)
The debate of communism vs. capitalism is being revived if you haven't been paying any attention. This is the cause of the surge of National Socialism in Eastern Europe were they lived under communism thanks to America and other European countries and Russia. More and more legislation that is driving the economic crises are very communistic legislation that is be resented, on top of the increasing immigration and the rights given to illegal immigrants who do not want to even try to blend with the culture or learn the language. Of course this is causing a reaction in support for National Socialism. I think with the other issues, Europe maybe very liberal for the most part, a little due to media propaganda, but they are also very religious for the most part.

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