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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/19/2012 4:18:35 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Yes, I suppose it is a matter of perspective, but I know that immigrants as a group do much better in America than they do in Europe. And I find it hard to believe that racism isn't at least some piece of that.

And yes there is anti-white racism is France - the country has a long history of anti-Semitism.

And yes, I agree that racism is complicated. The racism in the U.S. is also rooted in history. But that's why it rubs me the wrong way when Europeans say that the U.S. is "racist". By what standard? Racism, in its many ugly forms, is alive and well everywhere. The important question is what, as a society, one is doing to combat it. And in the U.S., since the country began, issues of race have been on the agenda, particularly so since the Civil War, Reconstruction era and the Civil Rights movement. America has been actively engaging in the political issues surrounding race and race relations for much, much longer than most other countries. It is only relatively recently that countries like France and Germany are starting to come to grips with what it means to have a heterogeneous society.

I dont think all European countries are the same though FTP.

quote:


So you will not get any argument from me that racial relations are a simple thing. Of course not. They are extremely complicated. But I think people should look more carefully at what is actually going on in the U.S. before just labeling as incurably racist. The picture here is much more varied than that. Yes, there is racism. But this is more of a meritocracy than any other place in the world. And from whatever background, one has a better chance of making it in the U.S. than anywhere else in the world. I know from personal experience.


Race isnt so much the issue in the UK these days, as class. You have more chance of getting on if you went to the right school. I would be interested to hear your experiences if you have lived in the UK. It certainly isnt as bad as in the 60s or 70s.

Oddly enough, it doesnt seem to matter what colour you are when you move here, those worst affected by bigotry always seem to be the latest to emigrate to these shores. Currently it seems to be Eastern Europeans. I would guess this has always been linked to incomers working for less and taking jobs.


quote:


How long do you think before France were to elect an Algerian-French president?

Because in the U.S. we have a half-black president serving his second term of office. Where else in the world would such a thing be possible. Only in America. I love my country.


Fair play for electing President Obama, not once but twice. But please get back to me when your guys have the balls to elect a damn Woman



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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/19/2012 4:44:19 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hpunitif

About a french-algerian president in France... well I would vote for him if his main concern was french people. But the few algerian people who goes to politic do it to represent "their people" and defend "their religion". I don't mind, but they won't get any white vote.

We have arab ministers, but they are exceptions. Maybe you will not like what I'm going to say, but to me arab and french are two different things. Algerians are muslims, they have their culture, and it's not compatible with the french mentality. It may sound harsh but it's true, their religion is more important than the republic to them, and many of them despise french culture. Well, maybe despise is exagerated, but they don't want to be french. "Français" is considered an insult among young algerians. Black people, asian people, they are able to deal with two cultures, but the maghrebian islamic culture is just too strong and total, without concessions.



It is precisely this type of thinking that is inherently racist. It is not about whether I like what you say or not. It is about being honest with yourself about what this type of thinking means.

There are people in the U.S. who feel blacks are completely different from whites, and should not be able to be in positions of authority over whites. And guess what? This type of thinking is "racist". It's just what it is.






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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/19/2012 4:50:24 PM   
hpunitif


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: hpunitif

About a french-algerian president in France... well I would vote for him if his main concern was french people. But the few algerian people who goes to politic do it to represent "their people" and defend "their religion". I don't mind, but they won't get any white vote.

We have arab ministers, but they are exceptions. Maybe you will not like what I'm going to say, but to me arab and french are two different things. Algerians are muslims, they have their culture, and it's not compatible with the french mentality. It may sound harsh but it's true, their religion is more important than the republic to them, and many of them despise french culture. Well, maybe despise is exagerated, but they don't want to be french. "Français" is considered an insult among young algerians. Black people, asian people, they are able to deal with two cultures, but the maghrebian islamic culture is just too strong and total, without concessions.



It is precisely this type of thinking that is inherently racist. It is not about whether I like what you say or not. It is about being honest with yourself about what this type of thinking means.

There are people in the U.S. who feel blacks are completely different from whites, and should not be able to be in positions of authority over whites. And guess what? This type of thinking is "racist". It's just what it is.






To me racism is making assumptions based on... race. I'm talking about culture and reliegion. I'm not saying that their culture has less value, I'm saying that we don't share the same culture, and that some culture get along together whereas others don't, it's just a fact. It's especialy true when we are talking about a very conservative culture which has a tendency to consider anything too modern "occidental" and thus bad.



< Message edited by hpunitif -- 11/19/2012 4:51:11 PM >

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/19/2012 4:50:30 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		Politesub, yes, I very much agree that one can't treat all European countries the same. Each needs to be evaluated separately.

I can't speak to the specific issues that might be constraints in the U.K. today - I am sure you have a better sense, but I did point out in one of my earlier posts, the following:
quote:

Europe is still bound by racial, religious and class issues that make it very hard, if you are not already white, upper class and of the dominant religion, to be successful professionally.


But I don't deny that some of these factors may be on the wane in some countries; and other factors still important.

A female president. Ouch. You've got me on that one. Because, oddly, I think that will take much, much longer to achieve. America is an oddly sexist society. Another thread maybe....

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/19/2012 4:54:06 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hpunitif

To me racism is making assumptions based on... race. I'm talking about culture and reliegion. I'm not saying that their culture has less value, I'm saying that we don't share the same culture, and that some culture get along together whereas others don't, it's just a fact. It's especialy true when we are talking about a very conservative culture which has a tendency to consider anything too modern "occidental" and thus bad.




You are entitled to your perspective. But it is not how we understand the term generally in America. We often use the term "racist" to cover not just issues relating purely to race, but also to ethnicity, religion, culture, language etc. I'm not interested in a semantics argument about the word "racist", but please understand that the meaning here is much broader than just white vs black.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/19/2012 5:05:34 PM   
hpunitif


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: hpunitif

To me racism is making assumptions based on... race. I'm talking about culture and reliegion. I'm not saying that their culture has less value, I'm saying that we don't share the same culture, and that some culture get along together whereas others don't, it's just a fact. It's especialy true when we are talking about a very conservative culture which has a tendency to consider anything too modern "occidental" and thus bad.




You are entitled to your perspective. But it is not how we understand the term generally in America. We often use the term "racist" to cover not just issues relating purely to race, but also to ethnicity, religion, culture, language etc. I'm not interested in a semantics argument about the word "racist", but please understand that the meaning here is much broader than just white vs black.


I know that the meaning is broader than this, but stating a lack of compatibility between two cultures should not be called "racist". It is what is happening in France, algerian and french people, don't get along for cultural and historical reasons, and it will take at least 50 years to calm down. French people don't want Islam to make its way in the country and expect people coming here to have at least some degree of affection for the country. There was a slogan invented by Sarkozy that sums this up: "La france tu l'aimes ou tu la quitte". (Love France or leave).

But I understand it can be hard to understand this point of view in America, since the USA are multi-ethnic by nature, since the beginning of its history. Multiculturalism is your identity. European countries have strong identities anchored in the past, it makes people way more conservative of their culture and expecting new migrants to assimilate to a certain extent.

I'm pretty sure what I'm saying here would not be considered racist in France, but I'm starting to understand why you call european racists, according to your definition we probably are.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/19/2012 5:08:43 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

You are entitled to your perspective. But it is not how we understand the term generally in America.

Quite true. In America these days a "racist" is anybody who holds a different view from one's own. In America, we burn dictionaries.

K.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/19/2012 5:23:08 PM   
Rule


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Anyone who discriminates between racists and non-racists obviously is a racist himself.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/19/2012 7:11:23 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

In America, we burn dictionaries.


In all fairness, this is a property of language itself, not something peculiar to the US, nor something necessarily negative or detrimental.

This constant refactoring of the symbols of discourse keeps communication reasonably optimal over time. Most people can see the close parallells between discriminating on the basis of race and the same on the basis of culture, whether or not they correctly infer that the commonality is the human instinct to discriminate between the ingroup and the outgroup, and, rather than coin the word idunnomanism, they use the existing word to refer to the overarching concept; over time this becomes an accepted part of the usual meaning of the word.

And, crucially, language is primarily a form of manipulation, concerned with inspiring emotions and actions, and only secondarily a means to convey information.

In discourse about facts, it is of course rather questionable to use the word racism to describe anything that isn't an instance of something closely related to the accepted meaning of the word in the relevant context, but such use is perfectly acceptable in the domain of emotion and social exchanges. It's even useful, because it allows us a glimpse of just how disorganized and irrational the inner worlds of some people can be, which in turn lets us adjust our perception of their credibility.

Some people can elevate the subtle and novel uses of language to an art form, while others can degrade it to little more than glorified grunting. Some are able to serve up a different set of quadruple entendres to each of several different groups of readers in a single sentence, while others couldn't convey the simplest of messages in their native tongue if their lives depended on it. Most of us lie somewhere in the middle.

I'm sure I was headed toward some sort of summit, but I seem to have gotten lost. In lieu of a point, I submit that generalizing racism to groupism isn't a sin, and applying either to a difference of opinion isn't one of language. And using a dictionary isn't a vice, but abusing one is a peeve. You seem to be petting it.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 11/19/2012 7:13:13 PM >

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/19/2012 7:15:38 PM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

In general I guess from an American point of view most European posting here appear "liberal-left" - to interpret that fact as wider variety of American political culture is pretty wild though since many positions and statements of the "American conservative" would equally appear far outside right wing if not something very close to Italian (Neo-) fascism or German (Neo-) Nazism in a European context - we had that already, and got luckily and happily past it (with the help of the USA-and many thanks for that).


I'm not sure that American conservatives would really be that close to Italian Fascism or German Nazism, at least not in this century (or even in the last century). The worst that they've done is relatively mild compared to the unrestrained reign of terror perpetrated by Hitler and his gang. I'm no fan of American conservatives, but I find these comparisons tend to blow things out of proportion.

I don't think American political culture is really as wild as it might seem. Perhaps the media might make it look that way, and of course, some of them try to stir the pot a bit. But overall, American political culture has actually been relatively stable when you look at the big picture.

quote:


And yes these things exist in Europe too with slight national differences (as usual with Nationalists) at an average rate of about 2 - 10 % of voting population (and with then political Racism too, openly or a bit more under the surface). But not as some 50-50 ratio dividing a nation, as is does appear to be in the US. The American right positions would not get anything close to 10 % of votes here (with some temporary exceptions ...).


One thing to keep in mind about American politics is that we have a very limited choice on our menu: Democrat or Republican. They come as a package deal, and you have to take the bad with the good, regardless of where your own political philosophy may lie. It's true that there are other parties in America, but they don't really get anywhere due to a sense of inertia and tradition in the political culture. Political loyalties in America can be regional and even generational as much as they might be ideological.

quote:


Fact is: the issues so hot-bloodedly discussed here by US posters and in US society have been discussed in Europe centuries, or decades, or (with gay marriage: years) ago, and a majority of central-left-right liberals+conservatives+socialdemocrats/labour have all agreed in principle to have these things: separation of religion and politics, social security since 19th century, equal rights, gun regulations 20th c., abolition of death penalty since the 50s, abortions since the 70s, gay marrage from the 90s on ... I know many of these arguments I can read posted here and there by US right-wings from the past discussions here in Europe, and they appeared in Europe too, but were far from majority then and even less so now - they are now to be read in history books ...


Well, we've always had separation of Church and State ever since the U.S. was established. We've also had legalized abortion since the 1970s, so on that issue, we're on par with Europe. I also remember the issue of gay marriage being discussed as far back as the 1970s as well (probably even earlier), so if they didn't start discussing it in Europe until the 90s, then we're actually ahead on that issue by two decades.

The death penalty and gun regulations seem to vary from state to state, so it's not something that Americans have ignored, but haven't reached a nationwide consensus (nor does it appear we ever will).





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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/19/2012 7:38:22 PM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

A female president. Ouch. You've got me on that one. Because, oddly, I think that will take much, much longer to achieve. America is an oddly sexist society. Another thread maybe....


Perhaps I should point out that 4 of Arizona's past 5 governors have been women, 2 Democrats and 2 Republicans (more than any other state).

In contrast, more liberal states like California and New York have never had a woman governor.

I don't know what that means, if anything, but if the reddest state in the nation can elect 4 female governors, then I think it's plausible we'll see a woman president in our lifetime.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/20/2012 3:48:11 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

You are entitled to your perspective. But it is not how we understand the term generally in America.

Quite true. In America these days a "racist" is anybody who holds a different view from one's own. In America, we burn dictionaries.

K.


Not anybody just those who make racist or biggoted statements, such as the guy who burns religious books to incite hatred.

Racists love playing the victim, it makes them feel justified in their actions.

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/20/2012 7:08:06 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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Status: offline 		Aswad, if it makes others feel better about it perhaps I should, in fact, desist from using the word "racist" so broadly. Perhaps yours and my perspective on the semantics is wrong (or too advanced in spirit).

If it makes others feel better, I am quite happy to use the term "bias" or "hate" which are the other terms that we use frequently in the U.S. to refer to such behavior.

If others feel that being "biased" or "hateful" is significantly different from being labeled "racist", so be it. Again, sometimes an over-adherence to semantics makes us lose some of the dialogue.

And from the responders on this thread, I think it is fair to say that "bias", "hate", and, even "racism" are still alive and well in many parts of the world. Choose whatever label makes one feel "comfortable", although the notion of "comfort" and "hate" co-existing is distasteful to say the least.



btw, part of the discomfort people are feeling about the semantics is that people don't want to confront the reality of some of their thoughts. "Racist" is a strong word. It makes people uncomfortable. And perhaps therein lies my feeling that in some ways it is the right to word to use. It provokes. It makes people defensive. And all of this is simply further proof to what I have repeatedly said about bias, hate and racism still being alive and well.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/20/2012 9:51:45 AM   
Kirata


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Being white, I have the privilege (if that's the word I want) of occasionally hearing other whites speak candidly about their views on blacks. Not infrequently they have black friends whom they regard as damn decent people. But when speaking about blacks generally, property values along with both petty and violent crime typically feature foremost in their concerns. While certainly guilty of stereotyping and prejudice, which are the words you are looking for here, they are not white supremacists: They are not racists.

K.








< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/20/2012 10:02:45 AM >

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/20/2012 9:57:09 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

While certainly guilty of stereotyping and prejudice


Not even prejudiced when discussing facts... Prejudice would be if they attributed crime to" blacks" rather than their situation in life which makes crime more prevalent.

Butch

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/20/2012 3:20:36 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Aswad, if it makes others feel better about it perhaps I should, in fact, desist from using the word "racist" so broadly. Perhaps yours and my perspective on the semantics is wrong (or too advanced in spirit).


I would prefer to find another word for the broader sense, but it's tricky to get such words to catch on, particularly since they have to be reasonably self evident in meaning to the average reader to do so, or very catchy. Racism is a familiar word, and its original sense is now becoming less prevalent than the broader sense, which sort of makes the original sense reduntant in a lot of cases, so I really think it's just being ahead of the curve to call it racism. That will eventually be the normal use.

quote:

If it makes others feel better, I am quite happy to use the term "bias" or "hate" which are the other terms that we use frequently in the U.S. to refer to such behavior.


Discrimination based on group membership is a multifaceted thing. Hate is overapplied. Bias is too diffuse. Racism seems closer to the mark. In truth, though, it seems to come down to familiar vs unfamiliar, internal vs external, us vs them, and it is evident in all apes as far as I know. Apartism, maybe? I dunno. Racism has a ring to it.

quote:

And from the responders on this thread, I think it is fair to say that "bias", "hate", and, even "racism" are still alive and well in many parts of the world.


All parts of the world. It's an element of how humans work. Fortunately, it's an element that can be dealt with, if one actually addresses it, instead of just dismissing it as stupid. People respond better to having their beliefs challenged than to having them dismissed or being disparaged for them. I've had a fair bit of success with this.

quote:

Choose whatever label makes one feel "comfortable", although the notion of "comfort" and "hate" co-existing is distasteful to say the least.


Hate is usually a symptom. Addressing the underlying issue tends to make it go away.

When it persists, though, I agree it's not particularly comfortable.

quote:

btw, part of the discomfort people are feeling about the semantics is that people don't want to confront the reality of some of their thoughts.


I don't feel uncomfortable about the semantics at all. The feedback I've had from different people so far is that I do a good job of setting aside any prejudices I might carry about any particular group when dealing with individuals, and that I've fewer prejudices than are the norm in my environment. Anyone can improve, of course, but I see no reason to be uncomfortable with my current status in this regard.

quote:

"Racist" is a strong word.


A charged word, which is my only argument against it.

quote:

It makes people uncomfortable.


Often, it shuts down thought and discourse, which is a problem.

I don't have a better word to use, though.

quote:

And perhaps therein lies my feeling that in some ways it is the right to word to use. It provokes. It makes people defensive.


No, that is the wrong feeling. This is precisely the reason a better word would be good.

Affective threshold is a serious problem when trying to address an important issue where there is a significant divergence of opinion. It causes people to stop listening with their rational mind. That prevents progress. You can't shame or beat people into enlightenment. It's necessary to reach out to them, teach them, show them. You can't do that nearly as effectively when their hackles are up.

"Defensive" is a word that describes behavior wherein people seek out new ways to rationalize dismissing input. It's digging in. It makes irrational views become more entrenched. It causes emotion to take the place of logic, and emotion relies on what is already there, what is familiar. You need to engage their logic, and to do that, you need to circumvent their emotional barriers, which requires keeping tension low. Once people are too far outside their comfort zone, they clam up and stop learning. Worst case, you can end up with them extending their negative attitudes to encompass people that don't share those attitudes, creating a further obstacle to improving their attitudes.

Simply put, I'm ready to defend the use of the word "racism" on linguistic grounds.

But you're unintentionally making a very persuasive argument to avoid it.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/20/2012 4:39:30 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		The use of the word racism is an interesting topic. While racism and Islamophobia are linguistically different, I see them as having exactly the same attitude towards the groups targeted. For instance I see Antisemitism as racist towards Jewish people, and have used either word to describe the same event.

To me, racism Islamophobia, homophobia, sexism, antisemitism and bigotry are all just modern labels for the same thing. hatred and contempt of something different.

Racists argue the semantics of the word as a defence..... "I`m not racist as they are not a race" for instance.

To put it in the vernacular....Thats bollocks.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/20/2012 4:56:11 PM   
stellauk


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Status: offline 		Maybe it's just me and the way I see the world and other people, but I can't think in terms of 'Europeans are more x' or 'Americans are more y'. I feel this sort of logic is similar to that employed by bigots and racists.

I'm a great believer in partial relativism, and while we share some characteristics, traits, culture and backgrounds with many other people, we are all individual people at the end of the day.

I'm kind of not surprised by the incident with the woman dying in Ireland. I see quite a few people who don't make the effort when it comes to responsibility, thinking, or developing empathy or compassion. They all seem to share a common assumption that following a particular religious belief or political ideology excuses them from all of the above and even provides justification why they don't need the above.

I think this comes down to personal choice which is individual. You can either make the changes yourself to accepting other people for who they are and the world as it is and get along, or you can live a life of conflict in a world among people who don't conform to how you think they should be.

The struggle between Left and Right?

I think it's more a case of people struggling to relate to other people and the world around them.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/21/2012 12:36:35 AM   
blnymph


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


Well, we've always had separation of Church and State ever since the U.S. was established.




The difference between the USA and Europe is in my original expression of a separation of religion and politics. Usually the religion of a politician is his/her private business and mentioning it in the open is considered at least mildly disgusting - or a worrying symptom of crisis as in some orthodox eastern european countries. There are still "Christian" parties in Germany for instance but they keep a friendly distance to the churches and have jewish and muslim members as well. The closer to the churches they were in the past (like the DC in Italy) the deeper they fell in popularity.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/21/2012 4:04:08 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


Well, we've always had separation of Church and State ever since the U.S. was established.




The difference between the USA and Europe is in my original expression of a separation of religion and politics. Usually the religion of a politician is his/her private business and mentioning it in the open is considered at least mildly disgusting - or a worrying symptom of crisis as in some orthodox eastern european countries. There are still "Christian" parties in Germany for instance but they keep a friendly distance to the churches and have jewish and muslim members as well. The closer to the churches they were in the past (like the DC in Italy) the deeper they fell in popularity.


I think religion is generally treated as a private matter here in the U.S. as well. Clearly, people will know a political candidate's religion, as it will be invariably reported in the media, along with any other bit of information they can dig up.

But just mentioning it would be no indication of any crisis, since we really don't have a history or tradition of religious discord here in America. Sure, there have been a few isolated incidents, but overall, sectarian differences have had a relatively minimal impact here in America. European history is very different, with the various schisms and religious wars which have occurred on that continent. Their response to religion is markedly different, probably for that reason, whereas we didn't really that here in America. (We may fight for any number of other reasons, but religion doesn't seem to be one of them.)

(in reply to blnymph)
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