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Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 9:19:49 AM

OedipusRexIt

Posts: 634
Joined: 11/15/2005
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I'm coming out!!!

Yes, Virginia, I am an elitist. Some might even say a snob. Go ahead, take a shot at me and call me that, or worse.

I am those things, because I believe in the pursuit of excellence over settling for mediocrity.

I don't believe in promoting Johnny to the next grade to help his self-esteem.

I don't believe everyone's opinion is equally valid (some are ill-informed, to say the least).

I'm getting to the saturation point from some of what I've read here in the forums, and wanted to save others the trouble of calling me out.

For those intellectually inclined, there is an excellent essay on this concept by Jose Ortega y Gosset, entitled "Revolt of the Masses". It's a quick read, but covers the concept of "mass man vs. intelligentsia" quite well.

So, did I lose positively everyone?

_____________________________

"My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die..."

Post #: 1

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 9:23:04 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Hell no! My kid would be tutorred 24-7 to catch up.

You are not elitist, just poiting out trashy educational system.

(in reply to OedipusRexIt)

Post #: 2

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 9:27:48 AM

LokisBrat

Posts: 431
Joined: 12/5/2005
From: Mayberry, Illinois
Status: offline

Very interesting article, I'm working my way through it.
Thank you!

Brat

_____________________________

"My pleasure, your pain. Doesn't matter, its all the same"

-Loki

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 3

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 9:41:36 AM

bklynbbw

Posts: 147
Joined: 10/19/2005
Status: offline

Absolutly not. I agree with you 100% and have been called a snob on occasion. So be it. As for Johnny...oh hell no. I had my 14 yr old left back twice because he failed...from being lazy. Nothing else.....he tested at college level at 14..just didnt want to be bothered doing the work. Then started getting in trouble for stupid things..wanna be gangsta....after repeatedly having him locked up and that having no effect...I asked the judge to put him away in a program. Needless to say...he hated me..lol oh well. Tough love but it did the trick....he is now 16, has gotten his high school diploma...is working and plans on going to college. Can you say "proud momma" <<smile>> I want the best for myself....and for my children...and loved ones. I always tried to teach them...stay around people that can bring you up....not down. One of the best ways to teach that was to do the same and let them see. I continue to do so.

(in reply to OedipusRexIt)

Post #: 4

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 12:17:13 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

I'd say you were honest rather thn a snob. Snobbery ia after all for the wouldbe-iftheycouldbe-but never willbe group who want to climb the social ladder and be accepted in the elite company... Elitism is some thing refering to a person or group who are proud to being to an elite group i.e. belonging to a best of the best group or organization. I have a laugh at thefirst and am part of the second twice over..... Does this mean I am biased? My word it does. In one hand for me it was an act of birth to belong and the other hand I worked my guts out and sweated blood to belong to two elite military groups. Mediocracy is the bane of western society today where the medocre "do gooders" hold sway and stamp over people's rights with their secod hand peasant boots....... <Where's the bloody headsman when you need> him?>

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to OedipusRexIt)

Post #: 5

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 12:31:11 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

My family thinks of me as an intellectual snob.. I do not view myself that way but I think their opinion about my snobbishness is equal to my own. Perhaps their opinion is more valid seeing that I am not objective.

Seriously, I think Western Civilization and its view of the world is nothing but a bunch of crap. Our "truths" are no more valid than anyone else's in the world. Our intelligentsia in this country has given us a rather myopic view of the world to say the least... and it isn't a valid one in my opinion. But then again I am an elitist too, just of a different stripe than most elitists.

About Johnny, maybe he should stay back a grade for his own welfare, but Johnny is as valuable of a human being as any other child... just my opinion

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to OedipusRexIt)

Post #: 6

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 12:51:58 PM

lisa1978

Posts: 224
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Kansas City
Status: offline

The only problem with labeling yourself an snob or an elitist is you think that makes you better than "common" folks on things that have nothing to do with what makes you think you are those things.

So belonging to a private club by invite only or a special group based on capabilities is great and people should take pride in such things. But if you then think that makes you better then other people or your personal preferences are better than other people then you got some issues.

Very big difference from knowing you are smarter and more informed on a topic because you are well read up and talked it over with other well informed people as opposed to some person who has thought about it for two seconds and offers up a strong opinion, then thinking whatever you do or say is smarter and wiser than other people you deam below you. The first is solid self esteem. The latter is an arrogant ass.

As far as online type thoughts in this manner. There are big differences from opinions, facts, theories and preferences. Often posters get confused or do not make clear these differences. Many snobs and elitist can also confuse these differences.

_____________________________

It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion, we'd be truly dead.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 7

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 2:49:25 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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lisa, I have to agree with you here. There is a difference in being considered worthy by yoiur peers andthrough diny of hrd work to be offered or awarded a position in en elite group. Prt of that belonging means that within well defined guide lines you are one of the best of the best in that area and that area only. It does not mean thay you are better than the rest of the populace just different in specified aspects... being born into an elite class is as much of a pain in the ass these days of modern society as it is a blessing. Gone are the days when the ruling classes had both power and wealth (Much to my sorrow). It has it's blessings in smallways such as knowing you liniage and it's place in history and perhaps being part of a dieing breed which none who have never been there can comprehend. As far as being better than the resy of a commuity, I am reminded what my Father, Grandfather and Grand Mother all told me from an early age: "You are born to rule and if disaster strikes, you may well be seated on the throne.. However in order to rule, you first must earn the right to rule. In order to earn the right to rule you must learn to command, humility, compassion and to rule or commant justly and learn to be hard enough to make and carry out hard and unpleasant decisions sothat you do not endanger your command, or that which you rule. Those under you and who will look to you to make correct decisions are placing their lives and livelihoods in your hands, Be sure that you are worthy of such. Remember that before all other things you are a Man just as they are Men."

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to lisa1978)

Post #: 8

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 3:08:20 PM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

One fly in the oinment. 'Das Kapital' by Karl Marx and 'The wealth Of Nations' by Adam Smith amongst others, spawned many 'isms' and 'ists', all bequeathed to us by the intelligensia while the dumb masses prefered common sense.

Now I understand defining common sense is problematic and subjective but it has a ring of truth about it when encountered and usually the dumb masses hear it ring when the elitist intelligensia don't.

(in reply to OedipusRexIt)

Post #: 9

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 3:09:26 PM

OedipusRexIt

Posts: 634
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lisa1978

The only problem with labeling yourself an snob or an elitist is you think that makes you better than "common" folks on things that have nothing to do with what makes you think you are those things.

So belonging to a private club by invite only or a special group based on capabilities is great and people should take pride in such things. But if you then think that makes you better then other people or your personal preferences are better than other people then you got some issues.

Very big difference from knowing you are smarter and more informed on a topic because you are well read up and talked it over with other well informed people as opposed to some person who has thought about it for two seconds and offers up a strong opinion, then thinking whatever you do or say is smarter and wiser than other people you deam below you. The first is solid self esteem. The latter is an arrogant ass.

As far as online type thoughts in this manner. There are big differences from opinions, facts, theories and preferences. Often posters get confused or do not make clear these differences. Many snobs and elitist can also confuse these differences.

I think this is well put and has a good deal of truth in it. However, in using "elitism" I was hoping it would be a shorthand in a different direction than that which you took it to be.

Rather than thinking of it as "I'm better than you", I encourage you to think of it as "we all should strive to be ever better than we are".

Ortega y Gosset explained it in detail. I was going for summary. Hope this helps to make my point more clear.

_____________________________

"My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die..."

(in reply to lisa1978)

Post #: 10

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 4:08:56 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Seriously, I think Western Civilization and its view of the world is nothing but a bunch of crap. Our "truths" are no more valid than anyone else's in the world.

Truth isn't always subjective. And I can't think of any civilization that I would trade my Western one for.

About Johnny, maybe he should stay back a grade for his own welfare, but Johnny is as valuable of a human being as any other child... just my opinion

Valuable as a human being, yes. But, if little Johnny grows up to be a deadbeat, in some ways he is not as valuable as a Bill Gates or Martin Luther King.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 11

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 6:37:32 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

*knock knock*

Did you mean by Ortega y Gasset?

:-p

Seriously I love it that there are so many intellectually inclined deranged, twisted, perverted and deviant posters around. Keep it up: you are much lurved.

PS: how do you rate Jacques Derrida?

_____________________________

(in reply to OedipusRexIt)

Post #: 12

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 8:21:56 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

For me...What's far more repugnant than actual elitism is pseudo-elitism.

Yanno... the snobby yuppies/urbanites who dwell in apartments or purchase homes with interest-only loans, drive SUVs and charge everything on credit cards, yet in all actuality are insolvent! Yes.... the worst type of elite is the one who actually doesn't have any money. Gotta love em' HAR!

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 6/16/2006 8:29:45 PM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 13

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 9:26:51 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

What passed for common sense and "rang true" two hundred years ago no longer passes for common sense or rings true today. What passes for common sense and "rings true" in Syria isn't common sense and doesn't ring true in Texas.

Common sense has to be one of the most useless concepts ever invoked. "Common sense" really just means "what I believe and everyone else ought to believe too."

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Now I understand defining common sense is problematic and subjective but it has a ring of truth about it when encountered and usually the dumb masses hear it ring when the elitist intelligensia don't.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 14

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 9:28:07 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

I don't mind them so much. They have a delightful tendency to Darwinize themselves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

Yanno... the snobby yuppies/urbanites who dwell in apartments or purchase homes with interest-only loans, drive SUVs and charge everything on credit cards, yet in all actuality are insolvent! Yes.... the worst type of elite is the one who actually doesn't have any money. Gotta love em' HAR!

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 15

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 9:33:17 PM

timeoutgurlie

Posts: 588
Joined: 3/21/2006
Status: offline

I value social and emotional intelligence above so called 'practical' intelligence or those who feel they have a superior education.

A greater number of people can read, take classes, study hard, etc., but it's fewer who are the people who are respected for an intelligence that works beyond a measure of IQ.

Just my opinion.

I've met people who are members of MENSA who, frankly, were dumber by my standards than those who hadn't gone to university a day in their lives. I worked with a fundraiser where a few of the 'elite' MENSA members attending and gave speeches, have to say that there were a handful of people I met that night whose backgrounds included no education beyond highschool, even one with a GED, who impressed me more than of those on stage I'd listened to.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 16

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 10:42:02 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt

I'm coming out!!!

Yes, Virginia, I am an elitist. Some might even say a snob. Go ahead, take a shot at me and call me that, or worse.

I am those things, because I believe in the pursuit of excellence over settling for mediocrity.

I don't believe in promoting Johnny to the next grade to help his self-esteem.

I don't believe everyone's opinion is equally valid (some are ill-informed, to say the least).

I'm getting to the saturation point from some of what I've read here in the forums, and wanted to save others the trouble of calling me out.

For those intellectually inclined, there is an excellent essay on this concept by Jose Ortega y Gosset, entitled "Revolt of the Masses". It's a quick read, but covers the concept of "mass man vs. intelligentsia" quite well.

So, did I lose positively everyone?

Most seek out a reason to justify feelings of superiority. Very few if any are justified.

I'd ask simply why are you elite, and why are those qualities more important than other qualities others might possess? Is it just because you believe in doing things well?

Here's one definition I found
Elitism is a belief or attitude that an elite— a selected group of persons whose personal abilities, specialized training or other attributes place them at the top of any field (see below)— are the people whose views on a matter are to be taken most seriously, or who are alone fit to govern. Thus elitism sees an elite as occupying a special position of authority or privilege in a group, set apart from the majority of people who do not match up with their abilities or attributes.

Is this what you are saying you believe? Or is another definition in order?

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 6/16/2006 10:44:51 PM >

(in reply to OedipusRexIt)

Post #: 17

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 10:52:46 PM

OedipusRexIt

Posts: 634
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt

I'm coming out!!!

Yes, Virginia, I am an elitist. Some might even say a snob. Go ahead, take a shot at me and call me that, or worse.

I am those things, because I believe in the pursuit of excellence over settling for mediocrity.

I don't believe in promoting Johnny to the next grade to help his self-esteem.

I don't believe everyone's opinion is equally valid (some are ill-informed, to say the least).

I'm getting to the saturation point from some of what I've read here in the forums, and wanted to save others the trouble of calling me out.

For those intellectually inclined, there is an excellent essay on this concept by Jose Ortega y Gosset, entitled "Revolt of the Masses". It's a quick read, but covers the concept of "mass man vs. intelligentsia" quite well.

So, did I lose positively everyone?

Most seek out a reason to justify feelings of superiority. Very few if any are justified.

I'd ask simply why are you elite, and why are those qualities more important than other qualities others might possess? Is it just because you believe in doing things well?

Here's one definition I found
Elitism is a belief or attitude that an elite— a selected group of persons whose personal abilities, specialized training or other attributes place them at the top of any field (see below)— are the people whose views on a matter are to be taken most seriously, or who are alone fit to govern. Thus elitism sees an elite as occupying a special position of authority or privilege in a group, set apart from the majority of people who do not match up with their abilities or attributes.

Is this what you are saying you believe? Or is another definition in order?

No, I'm afraid that's not it, and I'll stand on my previous posts.

_____________________________

"My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die..."

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 18

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 11:22:03 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt

I'm coming out!!!

Yes, Virginia, I am an elitist. Some might even say a snob. Go ahead, take a shot at me and call me that, or worse.

I am those things, because I believe in the pursuit of excellence over settling for mediocrity.

I don't believe in promoting Johnny to the next grade to help his self-esteem.

I don't believe everyone's opinion is equally valid (some are ill-informed, to say the least).

Most despise the audience they are expected to lie to. Of course, it's always amusing to disappoint that audience by being unapologetically truthful.

(in reply to OedipusRexIt)

Post #: 19

RE: Elitism and Snobbery - 6/16/2006 11:42:53 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

Well, I just read that essay, and it falls under that defintion pretty well as I read it.

Generally the idea of the essay was...
A belief that the "masses" push their beliefs into areas where the "minorities"(as he states it are intellectuals, aristocrats, higher "educated" persons) once reigned to ill effect on society in general. As the masses aren't properly versed to make such decisions.

The only thing I'll say about the essay it states 1930 in the copy I found. If that is correct it wouldn't give much credence to the theory that the masses brought society down as it appears the author believed it was doing. As by any standard I think we have much progressed since and at a rapid pace, so the dire predictions set forth by the author relating to the consequences of the masses pushing themselves into what was the sole realm of the minorities(aristocrats, and intellectuals) didn't come into reality. If anything progress in general increased dramaticly in the country (USA), that had given the most power and control to the masses.

Not seeing it, maybe I'm to much a part of the masses, but it was interesting.

Here is a line from the very first paragraph that expresses the view of the author.
HERE is one fact which, whether for good or ill, is of utmost importance in the public life of Europe at the present moment. This fact is the accession of the masses to complete social power. As the masses, by definition, neither should nor can direct their own personal existence, and still less rule society in general, this fact means that actually Europe is suffering from the greatest crisis that can afflict peoples, nations, and civilisation.

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 6/16/2006 11:49:31 PM >

(in reply to OedipusRexIt)

Post #: 20

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