Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (Full Version)

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Fightdirecto -> Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/25/2012 8:00:02 AM)

Skills Don’t Pay the Bills by Adam Davidson, NPR's "Planet Money" in the New York Times, 11-25-12

quote:

Earlier this month, hoping to understand the future of the moribund manufacturing job market, I visited the engineering technology program at Queensborough Community College in New York City. I knew that advanced manufacturing had become reliant on computers, yet the classroom I visited had nothing but computers.

As the instructor Joseph Goldenberg explained, today’s skilled factory worker is really a hybrid of an old-school machinist and a computer programmer. Goldenberg’s intro class starts with the basics of how to use cutting tools to shape a raw piece of metal. Then the real work begins: students learn to write the computer code that tells a machine how to do it much faster.

Nearly six million factory jobs, almost a third of the entire manufacturing industry, have disappeared since 2000. And while many of these jobs were lost to competition with low-wage countries, even more vanished because of computer-driven machinery that can do the work of 10, or in some cases, 100 workers. Those jobs are not coming back, but many believe that the industry’s future (and, to some extent, the future of the American economy) lies in training a new generation for highly skilled manufacturing jobs — the ones that require people who know how to run the computer that runs the machine.

...even as classes like Goldenberg’s are filled to capacity all over America, hundreds of thousands of U.S. factories are starving for skilled workers.

Eric Isbister, the C.E.O. of GenMet, a metal-fabricating manufacturer outside Milwaukee, told me that he would hire as many skilled workers as show up at his door. Last year, he received 1,051 applications and found only 25 people who were qualified. He hired all of them, but soon had to fire 15. PART OF ISBISTER’S PICKINESS, he says, COMES FROM AN AVOIDANCE OF WORKERS WITH EXPERIENCE IN A “UNION-TYPE JOB.” ISBISTER, AFTER ALL, DOESN’T ABIDE BY STRICT WORK RULES AND $30-AN-HOUR SALARIES. AT GENMET, THE STARTING PAY IS $10 AN HOUR. THOSE WITH AN ASSOCIATE DEGREE CAN MAKE $15, WHICH CAN RISE TO $18 AN HOUR AFTER SEVERAL YEARS OF GOOD PERFORMANCE. FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, A NEW SHIFT MANAGER AT A NEARBY MCDONALD’S CAN EARN AROUND $14 AN HOUR. .

THE SECRET BEHIND THIS SKILLS GAP IS THAT IT’S NOT A SKILLS GAP AT ALL.

I SPOKE TO SEVERAL OTHER FACTORY MANAGERS WHO ALSO CONFESSED THAT THEY HAD A HARD TIME RECRUITING IN-DEMAND WORKERS FOR $10-AN-HOUR JOBS. “IT’S HARD NOT TO BREAK OUT LAUGHING,” says Mark Price, a labor economist at the Keystone Research Center, referring to manufacturers complaining about the shortage of skilled workers. “IF THERE’S A SKILL SHORTAGE, THERE HAS TO BE RISES IN WAGES,” he says. “IT’S BASIC ECONOMICS.” AFTER ALL, ACCORDING TO SUPPLY AND DEMAND, A SHORTAGE OF WORKERS WITH VALUABLE SKILLS SHOULD PUSH WAGES UP. YET ACCORDING TO THE BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS, THE NUMBER OF SKILLED JOBS HAS FALLEN AND SO HAVE THEIR WAGES.

In a recent study, the Boston Consulting Group noted that, outside a few small cities that rely on the oil industry, there weren’t many places where manufacturing wages were going up and employers still couldn’t find enough workers. “TRYING TO HIRE HIGH-SKILLED WORKERS AT ROCK-BOTTOM RATES,” the Boston Group study asserted, “IS NOT A SKILLS GAP.” The study’s conclusion, however, was scarier. MANY SKILLED WORKERS HAVE SIMPLY CHOSEN TO APPLY THEIR SKILLS ELSEWHERE RATHER THAN WORK FOR LESS, AND FEW YOUNG PEOPLE CHOOSE TO INVEST IN TRAINING FOR JOBS THAT PAY FAST-FOOD WAGES. AS A RESULT, THE UNITED STATES MAY SOON HAVE A HARD TIME COMPETING IN THE GLOBAL ECONOMY. The average age of a highly skilled factory worker in the U.S. is now 56. “That’s average,” says Hal Sirkin, the lead author of the study. “That means there’s a lot who are in their 60s. They’re going to retire soon.” And there are not enough trainees in the pipeline, he said, to replace them.

ONE RESULT, Sirkin suggests, IS THAT THE FAKE SKILLS GAP IS THREATENING TO CREATE A REAL SKILLS GAP. Goldenberg, who has taught for more than 20 years, is already seeing it up close. FEW OF HIS TOP STUDENTS WANT TO WORK IN FACTORIES FOR CURRENT WAGES.

Isbister is seeing the other side of this decision making. He was deeply frustrated when his company participated in a recent high-school career fair. ANY TIME A STUDENT EXPRESSED INTEREST IN MANUFACTURING, HE SAID, “THE PARENTS CAME OVER AND ASKED: ‘ARE YOU GOING TO OUTSOURCE? MOVE THE JOBS TO CHINA?’ ” WHILE ISBISTER SAYS HE THINKS THAT HIS INDUSTRY SUFFERS FROM A REPUTATION PROBLEM, HE ALSO ADMITTED THAT HIS ANSWER TO A NERVOUS PARENT’S QUESTION IS NOT REASSURING. THE INDUSTRY IS INEVITABLY GOING TO MOVE SOME OF THESE JOBS TO CHINA, OR IT’S GOING TO REPLACE THEM WITH MACHINES. If it doesn’t, it can’t compete on a global level.

It’s easy to understand every perspective in this drama. MANUFACTURERS, WHO FACE INCREASING COMPETITION FROM LOW-WAGE COUNTRIES, FEEL THEY CAN’T AFFORD TO PAY HIGHER WAGES. POTENTIAL WORKERS CHOOSE MORE PROMISING CAREER PATHS. “It’s individually rational,” says Howard Wial, an economist at the Brookings Institution who specializes in manufacturing employment. “But it’s not socially optimal.”

Would you (or, if you are a parent, would you advise your child to) spend the money and time for an Associates Degree to work at a job which will pay you approximately the same as a shift manager at McDonalds?




DarkSteven -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/25/2012 8:14:28 AM)

Okay. There are three places that jobs are disappearing to:

1. Overseas.
2. To jobs replacement with automation.
3. To more efficient processes requiring fewer bodies. (Closely allied to #2).

Automation is double edged. It reduces the number of jobs, but the jobs remaining are higher level and, per conventional wisdom, better paid.

Conventional wisdom ALSO says that the more capital is spent on automation, the less wage rates matter. If you have a $50 million piece of equipment, you do NOT want unskilled laborers making minimum wage running it.

I'm not saying that the study is wrong but, if it is right, then the management is being penny wise and pound foolish.




graceadieu -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/25/2012 6:37:34 PM)

So, to be clear, these factories have 1 worker doing what used to be the work of 10 at what used to be the wage of 0.5 workers?




MasterG2kTR -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/25/2012 7:03:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

Would you (or, if you are a parent, would you advise your child to) spend the money and time for an Associates Degree to work at a job which will pay you approximately the same as a shift manager at McDonalds?



We talked about this in one of my classes last week. One of my instructors was talking about a local employer that contacted him looking to fill a position. For a recent graduate student they were offering $17/hr. For a pre-graduate they were offering $13/hr.

I laughed at both rates. When asked why? I replied that I made more than $13/hr on unemployment, and as for the $17 I made more than that almost 15 yrs ago without a degree.




Fellow -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/25/2012 7:40:50 PM)

13 dollars/hour is actually the target in the manufacturing. The calculations show it would be a competitive wage to China labor. Obama administration achieved getting starting salary close to that in car assembly factories.
Most job creation is actually in low wage/low skills area. Hi tech companies use lack of skills story to bring in foreign labor: 66,000 per year plus universities having no limit.
I do not think revival of the industries will happen soon. The system is not so flexible. The government will try to keep failing system afloat. The finance that drives the economy has adopted psychology investing abroad in growing economies.
People feel the situation being very tight. The bad news is: expect it to get much worse.




erieangel -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/25/2012 9:18:03 PM)

There is no "skills gap". My son worked in a plastic factory for some time. He got the job through a temporary agency, which does all of the hiring for this plastic shop. He was paid minimum wage. He made more than that delivering pizzas for pizza hut when his tips were included and the work wasn't as physically draining.





defiantbadgirl -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/25/2012 9:37:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

13 dollars/hour is actually the target in the manufacturing. The calculations show it would be a competitive wage to China labor.


According to what I read in another thread, MINIMUM WAGE in Australia is equal to $17.30/hr US dollars. How is Australia's wage competitive to China labor? How is Australia competing in the global economy?




defiantbadgirl -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/25/2012 9:47:21 PM)

Will somebody please explain how Australia is competing in the global economy with a MINIMUM WAGE of $17.30/hr?




littlewonder -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/25/2012 10:58:01 PM)

I see this all the time. Kids getting frustrated about the current jobs available that only pay minimum wage or a little higher but not much. They go to school for skills thinking they will land a job that pays well only to find out most factories will never higher someone for more than $10 an hr.

I myself have this problem. I have executive administration skills from schooling and working in the field for 20 years. So when I quit my old administration job to move here to Baltimore, I quickly found when it was time for me to seek work, that the same job I was doing before and making a pretty good living, doesn't pay more than $10 an hr. I feel I deserve better than this. I remember seeing an ad for a full time executive administrator and they were paying $8 an hour but yet wanted someone with at least 10 years experience and knew all the computer programs, scheduling software, a/r, etc... It shocked me and then I laughed wondering who they were gonna hire for that kinda pay WITH the experience they say they want? It makes me wonder how long that job has been empty. lol


I have friends who have mad skills in manufacturing or some other kind of physical labor but they can't find jobs that actually pay. So many of those people I know, are now opening their shops with their skills. I can't blame them.

So it's definitely not a skills problem...it's a wage problem.

People who own businesses and looking to hire......pay more and then you wouldn't have this problem. Think about it!




Fellow -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/26/2012 4:49:30 AM)

quote:

According to what I read in another thread, MINIMUM WAGE in Australia is equal to $17.30/hr US dollars. How is Australia's wage competitive to China labor? How is Australia competing in the global economy?



I am not expert on Australia. One thing I know is currently Australia is doing well due to their mining and related exports. Raw materials exporters are doing relatively well due to China buying a lot of raw materials. This is slowing down fast and Australia is expected to suffer the consequences.
The problem is not people making money, it is people not making money. The US is a corporate state and the current corporate ideology expects high profits in short term. As in casino or in the game Monopoly, at the end, all the money and the material assets are in very few hands. The right strategy then is to leave the game. This is basically what the outspoken financial gurus are telling to the investors: move your money elsewhere (for example Peter Schiff in the US or Kevin O'Leary in Canada).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4FsF8SS34k

The high minimum wage and the right government policies to keep businesses running works fine. It is a balancing act. The corporate state (US) simply does not operate this way. Starting with W. Clinton presidency the conditions have been created that actually force businesses to move abroad.




cordeliasub -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/26/2012 5:01:11 AM)

Years ago, many of the skills that are taught in tech schools and community colleges were actually taught in high school through the tech program. Now it is "assumed" that every high school student is college bound, so rather than have the tech track option, many students are forced into the whole "Carnegie Unit" debacle even if they have no intention of going to college. So they get out of school knowing all about Shakespeare, and then they have to fork out big bucks to learn how to fix a car or be a welder - something they COULD have learned at a vocational high school years ago.

Don't get me wrong. I majored in English and music. I believe in higher level classes for college prep. BUT....not all kids are going to go to a four year University, nor should they. We need to let go of this "every child is an intellectual" fantasy and start thinking about tracking students.




Aswad -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/26/2012 5:27:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Will somebody please explain how Australia is competing in the global economy with a MINIMUM WAGE of $17.30/hr?


It's $26/hr in Norway, for unskilled labor with no prior work experience.

Our trading balance is positive, even without the oil.

You're getting ripped off.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




defiantbadgirl -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/26/2012 6:21:05 AM)

I keep reading about all these people who graduate from college and can't find a job that pays enough to live and pay back student loans. Unless of course they get a degree in something involving advanced math. Sir and I are both college students. I'm wondering if we would both be better off forgetting about college, moving to somewhere with a Costco, and getting jobs there. At least Costco pays $20/hr to employees after they've been there for 5 years. That's a lot more than many college graduates seem to be making.




defiantbadgirl -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/26/2012 6:35:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Will somebody please explain how Australia is competing in the global economy with a MINIMUM WAGE of $17.30/hr?


It's $26/hr in Norway, for unskilled labor with no prior work experience.

Our trading balance is positive, even without the oil.

You're getting ripped off.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



So other countries are paying their workers a lot more and are still doing fine in the global economy. Americans and American businesses have been blaming dwindling wages on the global economy for years. I already wish every day I'd been born in another country because the United States lacks non-insurance company single-payer health care. Knowing this just gives me one more reason to hate my own country.




cordeliasub -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/26/2012 7:10:55 AM)

You also have to look at the taxes in those countries. As a teacher I used to hear all the time about the great schools in Sweden....do you know how much tax they pay and how much of it goes into education, not to mention how well-respected rather than vilified teachers are there.....

Everything that has an amazing upside also has another side. That is how life works.

College tuition is ridiculous. I should be paying for my child to get an excellent education, not for a football teams new stadium. Yes, I am from the south so I do love football. But the things that Uni's spend money one versus the things they don't is....sad when you start examining it. There is no reason for a student to have to graduate with 100,000 dollars in loans.




defiantbadgirl -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/26/2012 7:17:31 AM)

Even with higher taxes, with minimum wages that high, people in those countries have to be coming out far ahead of Americans. Minimum wage is for unskilled workers, which means most of them make more than that.




Aswad -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/26/2012 7:27:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

You also have to look at the taxes in those countries.


Until you make a fair bit of money, no, you don't. You pay for the same things I do, except you pay more for it, and to multiple service providers. When the cost of living and taxes are factored in, a single minimum wage worker in Norway has more to spend than the median household in the USA does, with a better service level in addition.

quote:

As a teacher I used to hear all the time about the great schools in Sweden....do you know how much tax they pay and how much of it goes into education, not to mention how well-respected rather than vilified teachers are there.....


Compared to Finland, neither Sweden nor Norway can claim to have anything resembling education.

Norway is almost as bad as what the middle class gets in the USA when it comes to education.

quote:

I should be paying for my child to get an excellent education, not for a football teams new stadium.


Correction, both academic talent and other talent should be fostered; in the US, academic talent is harder to set aside funds to foster than e.g. sports talent, which is sucky, since academic talent is what will bolster the economy in the long run (the bell curve works, while the fat tail leaps ahead for everyone).

I've already put about 7-8 average lifetimes worth of money in the coffers, so I'm not a big fan of this whole equality thing wherein getting me back into the workforce is a lower priority than someone that won't ever contribute anything. That's part of why I think the USA could benefit immensely from our system: you don't have the same socialist disposition to begin with, and have more of an eye to the bottom line, so you could probably take the benefits without most of the downsides we get. (And even if you didn't, you would still be better off than you are now.)

quote:

There is no reason for a student to have to graduate with 100,000 dollars in loans.


Actually, if you want to do med school in Norway, you'll have about that much in loans when you're done.

Half the cost of education is a universal scholarship, the other half is a fixed rate public loan.

Of course, you can get additional scholarships if you qualify for those.

Education is a public investment in our future.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/26/2012 7:31:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Minimum wage is for unskilled workers, which means most of them make more than that.


The average wage is $80.000/yr.

And, of course, most households have two incomes.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




mnottertail -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/26/2012 7:32:17 AM)

Is that american or kroner?




Aswad -> RE: Skills Don’t Pay the Bills - The "Skills Gap" Myth (11/26/2012 7:34:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Is that american or kroner?


US Dollars.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




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