RE: Did Anonymous save the election?

RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (Full Version)

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xBullx -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 6:41:57 AM)
-Fast Reply- How can anyone be sure that Obama's "outside" helpers weren't up to the same kind of crap? This pointless conjecture and baseless rumor is why you turn these types of things over to the legal authorities, and then all the tin-hats don't have fuel for the next fifty elections; the bad guys will be nabbed, much like mad bombers. Concurrently, am I to believe that only Rove would try and "steal" an election? I don't believe it matters all that much anymore. We are closer to the "social cliff" than I had thought prior to this election. I suspect certain chess boards shall be revisited and at least the appearance of alternative strategies shall emerge. However, contrary to the popular belief of the experts on this site and the vast majority of others the "wealthy/bad guys" want Obama to succeed in his "socialist" quest. You can't blame "the wealthy" in the future when they own the company store that you all work for, if it was your champions that lead you to it. And yes you all will work one day, entitlements will go away and serfdom will be complete. Just evaluate the countries present course and be honest with yourselves in estimating which path would be the easiest route to serfdom. I suspect there is an Anonymous Contingent or ten out there, but they aren't doing anything for the greater good. Shadow Creatures are seldom derived out of friendly intent.

JeffBC -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 7:41:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad If one wants to move to electronic voting, the best bet would seem to be to have Lockheed-Martin develop a voting machine and related software, designed for high auditability, and the solution published with full disclosure of all details and documentation so that anyone with the relevant skillset can have a look at it. Announce a cash prize for every flaw found, large or small, as LM aren't in the habit of leaving a lot of them to be found. You can pretty much bet most of the major universities and security companies will have a go on a regular basis. Along with the corporate personhood idea, electronic voting is more than a threat to democracy as it is being done now. I mean, why even vote, when the votes aren't being counted fairly? I think that's the thing Aswad. And here again my tinfoil hat comes out. But given that EVERY major security researcher and several large groups have been pointing these things out since the very beginning of the idea as vigorously (including demonstrations) as they know how yet we still have those machine. Also fascinating to me is that the general public really knows nothing which leads me to wonder about the role of MSM in this. You'd think all those fine patriotic institutions like Fox, MSNBC, Time, etc. would've been screaming about this situation loudly and consistently. By the way, your idea may be safest but it'd still be the end of democracy. To my knowledge you cannot make a honey pot that sweet and protect it... period. I dealt with that problem on a smaller basis designing a public key infrastructure for my old corp. In that scenario you have a very secure good security system (certificate based cryptography) that is entirely dependent on the certificate authority servers remaining secure. There, the prize was only "all of <corps> secrets and as much money as you can make off with without being found". It's a pretty sweet prize but nothing like "global domination". The bottom line is that if you're precinct uses electronic voting then your vote only matters if a whole lot of people you don't know and will never know care to count it. The security in these voting machine companies is so bad that I wouldn't be too surprised if the janitors played video games on the servers while taking their lunch breaks. None of that is "maybe" (except for the janitors playing video games). It is all "for certain known fact". quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx How can anyone be sure that Obama's "outside" helpers weren't up to the same kind of crap? You must be a Republican. I gather that from your sense of honor which mostly wants to point out that other people are probably doing bad things too as if that meant anything. But in the end you are right anyway... if not this time and in this case then in others. What would anyone expect out of politicians that implement such a disaster to start with? The funny thing is that if I were to conclude things from who owns these companies I'd say that the Republicans were "behind" this and had premium access to "hacking the US election". Anonymous, however, just demonstrated that in fact ANYONE can do it.

tazzygirl -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 7:44:39 AM)
quote: How can anyone be sure that Obama's "outside" helpers weren't up to the same kind of crap? No one can be sure. Rove's reaction over Ohio was hilarious though! [:D]

xBullx -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 8:02:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx How can anyone be sure that Obama's "outside" helpers weren't up to the same kind of crap? You must be a Republican. I gather that from your sense of honor which mostly wants to point out that other people are probably doing bad things too as if that meant anything. But in the end you are right anyway... if not this time and in this case then in others. What would anyone expect out of politicians that implement such a disaster to start with? The funny thing is that if I were to conclude things from who owns these companies I'd say that the Republicans were "behind" this and had premium access to "hacking the US election". Anonymous, however, just demonstrated that in fact ANYONE can do it. Have you ever wondered why American Politics get so much foreign attention? The power hungry are international in their scope, good neighbor. I'm politically affiliated as an American Business Owner, concurrently I am having trouble identifying with any of the preconceived platforms. And I'm not sure that can any longer leave me affiliated with either party of bought and paid for(s). In this election, I was for the party that claimed less interested in regulating and taxing me more. Though both have their greedy mits elbow deep in my pockets. Both parties are manipulated by the Political Class and this class uses the everyday Conservatives and the Liberals as their pawns. It's not specifically the poor, or the rich, though gold does purchases the power in the end. As fantastical as the organization Spector seems to be in the Bond series, do they truly seem all that impossible? Believe what you want, the whole lot of you are nothing more than your own distractions to various sub-plots. Check.

xBullx -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 8:13:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: How can anyone be sure that Obama's "outside" helpers weren't up to the same kind of crap? No one can be sure. Rove's reaction over Ohio was hilarious though! [:D] Rove, Hannity, Limbaugh and all the conservative blowhards are part of the Republican problem. I find most all the so called pundits ridiculous; finding them hilarious would mean I find this political circus acceptable on either side.

tazzygirl -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 8:18:50 AM)
We simply turned on Fox that night to see what their take was on the election before Ohio was called. His melt down was priceless.

Moonhead -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 9:05:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpaceSpank Anonymous, when talking about the sum of all the disparate parts, can do just as much harm as good... but few people would now deny that they are capable of at least doing something. This story could be true, or it could be a case of creating scrutiny where there is no evidence, but lots of things that are somewhat related and point to the possibility being true. Both of those things are not unheard of for Anonymous to use. In fact, I'd say they are more skilled at social engineering than the actual hacking. Many of their "big scores" have been done not by hacking code, but by gaining access through unsuspecting people. Hasn't social engineering been the core of hacking in any case? Any monkey can follow a cookbook. Getting hold of the access that'll let you do any good with a cookbook requires a bit of charm, or at least smarm...

Moonhead -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 9:15:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx How can anyone be sure that Obama's "outside" helpers weren't up to the same kind of crap? You must be a Republican. I gather that from your sense of honor which mostly wants to point out that other people are probably doing bad things too as if that meant anything. But in the end you are right anyway... if not this time and in this case then in others. What would anyone expect out of politicians that implement such a disaster to start with? The funny thing is that if I were to conclude things from who owns these companies I'd say that the Republicans were "behind" this and had premium access to "hacking the US election". Anonymous, however, just demonstrated that in fact ANYONE can do it. Have you ever wondered why American Politics get so much foreign attention? The power hungry are international in their scope, good neighbor. I'm politically affiliated as an American Business Owner, concurrently I am having trouble identifying with any of the preconceived platforms. And I'm not sure that can any longer leave me affiliated with either party of bought and paid for(s). In this election, I was for the party that claimed less interested in regulating and taxing me more. Though both have their greedy mits elbow deep in my pockets. Both parties are manipulated by the Political Class and this class uses the everyday Conservatives and the Liberals as their pawns. It's not specifically the poor, or the rich, though gold does purchases the power in the end. As fantastical as the organization Spector seems to be in the Bond series, do they truly seem all that impossible? Believe what you want, the whole lot of you are nothing more than your own distractions to various sub-plots. Check. A couple of interesting points, Bull. First, it's SPECTRE, not SPECTOR. Apparently Ian Flemming invented Spectre as a non Soviet threat for one book, but when the films were made, they were emphasised a lot more heavily as the production company felt that using Soviet intelligence agencies as the main bad guys would hurt international sales of the franchise. As far as the emergence of similar agencies in real life goes, I'm very dubious that the plutocracy would resort to forming terrorist organisations to produce results that they can gain (and have gained for years) purely through economic leverage. As for international interest in American politics, your own political climate spreads a long way outside of your own country. Just look at the disastrous consequences of providing the chimp with an excuse he could use to justify invading Iraq, for instance...

Hillwilliam -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 9:22:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC ". quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx How can anyone be sure that Obama's "outside" helpers weren't up to the same kind of crap? You must be a Republican. I gather that from your sense of honor which mostly wants to point out that other people are probably doing bad things too as if that meant anything. But in the end you are right anyway... if not this time and in this case then in others. What would anyone expect out of politicians that implement such a disaster to start with? The funny thing is that if I were to conclude things from who owns these companies I'd say that the Republicans were "behind" this and had premium access to "hacking the US election". Anonymous, however, just demonstrated that in fact ANYONE can do it. Actually, I see Bull as a Non Republican Conservative.

JeffBC -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 9:23:37 AM)
So I inferred incorrectly. Then is it simply you've given up all hope? Because honestly I don't really care whether Rove did something or not. I don't really care whether Obama did something or not. We know as a matter of public record that both are liars. What I care about is that the voting system itself is vulnerable... highly vulnerable. If this story is correct than what that means is ANYONE can hack the US elections... The pinko commies in Russia could do it. The evil socialists in Europe could do it. The treehuggers could do it as could those crazy liberals with their socialistic ideas. Even worse, it's not even necessary that this story be correct before that's a very plausible situation. These systems are not secure.. period. I doubt they COULD be secured even with all the best intentions. One last thought. Given that the prize here is something like "total world domination", I'd very much believe that if it was possible to start with it's already happening as regularly as people can manage to hide it.

Aswad -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 9:33:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpaceSpank In fact, I'd say they are more skilled at social engineering than the actual hacking. Social engineering is hacking. Very few meaningful systems are particularly vulnerable to digital incursion, though a computer can play a part in the process, of course. IWYW, — Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 9:47:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC To my knowledge you cannot make a honey pot that sweet and protect it... period. You know as well as I do that it's a question of "do we have the will to do this?" and "is this cost effective?", not "can we do this?". quote: None of that is "maybe" (except for the janitors playing video games). It is all "for certain known fact". Pretty much. IWYW, — Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 9:50:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: How can anyone be sure that Obama's "outside" helpers weren't up to the same kind of crap? No one can be sure. Rove's reaction over Ohio was hilarious though! [:D] This is precisely the point: no one can be sure. How can anything be worse than that in an election system? In a dictatorship, at least you know what the score is, and can act accordingly. IWYW, — Aswad.

JeffBC -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 10:16:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad You know as well as I do that it's a question of "do we have the will to do this?" and "is this cost effective?", not "can we do this?". Speaking as a guy who actually designed a PKI system (not architected) and actually participated in the writing of the associated policies and actually participated in the testing of said policies, "No, I know no such thing." NOTE: I am not a certified information security professional. I was just hip-deep in trying to solve problems such as this and I had some seriously expert people both within the corporation and as consultants helping me. We failed.

Moonhead -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 12:33:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC ". quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx How can anyone be sure that Obama's "outside" helpers weren't up to the same kind of crap? You must be a Republican. I gather that from your sense of honor which mostly wants to point out that other people are probably doing bad things too as if that meant anything. But in the end you are right anyway... if not this time and in this case then in others. What would anyone expect out of politicians that implement such a disaster to start with? The funny thing is that if I were to conclude things from who owns these companies I'd say that the Republicans were "behind" this and had premium access to "hacking the US election". Anonymous, however, just demonstrated that in fact ANYONE can do it. Actually, I see Bull as a Non Republican Conservative. Or as an actual conservative, rather than some sort of bizarre paste up of a Victorian free trader and one of the mouthpiece characters Robert Heinlein used to write into his fiction who couldn't shut up with the sub Ayn Rand blather for the length of any page they spent onstage. Looking at some of what the Republican leaning posters come out with in here, there aren't any Republican conservatives, but there's all sorts of conservative reactionaries in a variety of (mostly unpleasant) flavours...

Aswad -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 2:28:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC Speaking as a guy who actually designed a PKI system (not architected) and actually participated in the writing of the associated policies and actually participated in the testing of said policies, "No, I know no such thing." We've probably worked on different tasks, then. Not every task is absolutely solvable in that sense. It makes a significant difference whether you can do formal verification with full matrix analysis and so forth, which is rarely the case for tasks that are less well defined, or have a larger scope, but electronic voting is a very specific task that can be defined arbitrarily well in the groundwork. Course, perfect immunity to every problem that can crop up is a nonstarter, even with voting, but you can get close enough that it improves on the paper ballot. If, that is, we're talking about voting machines to replace the paper ballot. Remote voting would be an entirely different ballgame, and one I wouldn't suggest getting into in the first place. IWYW, — Aswad.

GoddessInanna -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 2:44:44 PM)
who bought an election? If anyone did it would be Obama. He spent 5 times the amount as Romney. If anyone cheated it was the democrats. They were the ones pushing to vote with out ID and to get illegals to vote.

DomKen -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 2:55:08 PM)
FR The fact is that only once in the era of pervasive pre election polling and targeted exit polling have those polls been off substantially from the eventual result, 2004 in Ohio. This could have been a someone incorrect sampling of the Ohio electorate, although that should have showed up in a precinct by precinct analysis and it didn't, or if could have been garden variety GOP voter suppression tactics, remember the video of long lines late into the night?, or it could have been something untoward with the vote counting but with the ballots long destroyed and the tapes and hard drives long erased we will simply never know. As to 2012 the way Rove reacted is suspicious. He had access to the county by county results and anyone looking at those could see that the outstanding vote in the areas he was touting were going to be much smaller than the vote still to come in from Democratic strongholds. It's almost like he expected Romney to do much better in Cleveland than expected, much like GWB in 2004. I've gone over the Ohion county results and they mtch up very well with the exit polling so it sure looks like the reported vote is accurate. However before any conclusions are reached actual evidence is required.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 3:04:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessInanna who bought an election? If anyone did it would be Obama. He spent 5 times the amount as Romney. Wrong as usual. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2012/11/most-expensive-election-history-numbers/58745/ "$874.6 million The amount that went toward Obama's re-election this election cycle, with the Obama campaign burning through $553.2 million, the DNC spending $263.2 million, and the biggest Obama Super PACS spending $58 million. $844.6 million The amount that went toward Romney's candidacy this cycle, with the campaign spending $360.4 million, the RNC adding $284 million, and Super PACs adding $200 million."

DomKen -> RE: Did Anonymous save the election? (11/26/2012 3:07:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessInanna who bought an election? If anyone did it would be Obama. He spent 5 times the amount as Romney. If anyone cheated it was the democrats. They were the ones pushing to vote with out ID and to get illegals to vote. WTF! Romney and his SuperPAC's more than Obama and allies. Strictly talking about the 2 campaigns, Obama spent $553.2 million and Romney spent $360.7 million. Which is no where near a 5 times difference. Factoring in the top outside groups makes it $856.5 million for Obama and $889 million for Romney. http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/campaign-finance

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