Shame or Discipline? (Full Version)

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irishbynature -> Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 1:14:23 PM)

I have a question that stirred my curiosity from another thread.  A submissive was told to post how she had been disciplined (stand in a corner, and go for periods  w/out speaking, etc..then go post it on a thread for other submissives...)

The OP stated that the "Shame" that came with the it all was worse than the discipline her Dominant had required. Although I've never been into "Humilation or Discipline" ...I still don't get it.  Shouldn't there be a difference between 'shaming' and 'discipline?' I didn't think making anyone feel "shame" was a part of BDSM? Or is it "To each his/her own? "

I'm definitely not here to judge that situation;  however I simply cannot relate to it or understand it.

Comments?
Thanks,
Irish




mnottertail -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 1:17:22 PM)

well, shame is a powerful emotion, all kinda whoremoans justa runnin up thru ya.

Consider the flush and heat, the involuntary response of not being able to look at someone.............

I don't know, shame is bad, shame is good.



MHOO314 -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 1:18:15 PM)

I for One discipline, I do not shame or humiliate---I guess I am too cognizant that there is a human being with a psyche that has to be managed.



irishbynature -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 1:20:23 PM)

True, some shame is good...esp the type that keeps us from stealing, committing crimes...or rather than good shame...call it remorse? It gives us boundaries for laws, etc...or even relationships. Good shame=necessary shame=remorse perhaps.



irishbynature -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 1:21:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

I for One discipline, I do not shame or humiliate---I guess I am too cognizant that there is a human being with a psyche that has to be managed.


Exactly...that's what I was thinking.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 1:24:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature
Shouldn't there be a difference between 'shaming' and 'discipline?'

Well there is a difference.

But there's no reason necessarily that one cannot employ shame as a tool IN discipline.

quote:

I didn't think making anyone feel "shame" was a part of BDSM? Or is it "To each his/her own? "

Pretty much.  Like all negative consequences, they tend not to be as powerful and much more volatile in their usage, but they can have their usage.

The problem with PUBLIC shaming is that it involves people who really don't want to be involved, it spreads private dissonance into public awareness and makes other people actively uncomfortable towards no greater positive purpose.

quote:

Comments?
Thanks,
Irish

"I resist, persist, louder than you know. I'm terrified of trusting you but you've never met anyone, as everything as I am." Alanis Morsette, "Everything"

As a huge Alanis fan, I love your quote and wish more people enjoyed it, but what she says is "What I resist, persists" and it's a quote taken from the Conversations with God trilogy by Neale Donald Walsch (Alanis wrote the introduction to the teen edition and is a huge fan of the series, as am I).



juliaoceania -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 1:25:58 PM)

My penchant for dictionary definitions comes about again.,... (I know... UGH)


1dis·ci·pline [image]http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif[/image]
Function: noun
1 : PUNISHMENT
2 obsolete : INSTRUCTION
4 : training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order b : orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c : SELF-CONTROL
 
Here is the word Punishment

Main Entry: pun·ish·ment [image]http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif[/image]
Pronunciation: 'p&-nish-m&nt
Function: noun
1 : the act of punishing
2 a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3 : severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

Now I am not in anyone else's dynamic and to each their own, but I do not mind discipline, in fact I need it! I will not tolerate being punished. One is positive, the other is not. Yes, definitions are important to me. If someone wants to punish someone they can look elsewhere. If they want to discipline me into being the submissive of their dreams ... Oh Baby.. Bring it on!

Shame is not inherently bad, but if that is the primary way a dominant gains control over his submissive, well I would wonder what kind of dynamic they have, but then again it is none of my business I suppose, I need a dominant that will look at me and think "She is a plum" and communicate this to me. I do not want someone who always leaves me feeling not quite good enough or lacking, to be ashamed of myself. Just my opinion




RavenMuse -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 1:28:29 PM)

For some shame is a natural follow on from realising they have let down not only their Master, but also themself. Most times when I use 'discipline' it is because the girl won't give herself closure on the incident without it, she keeps on 'punishing' herself..... punishment is MY province, my displeasure is usualy the worst punishment of all and 'should' be sufficient. The action I seek is working together to make sure the action that caused my displeasure is not repeated.

But having said that, each girl is diffrent, responds to diffrent things, has diffrent needs. I will use whatever I think will be most effective.... wether others understand it or not.



irishbynature -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 1:29:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
The problem with PUBLIC shaming is that it involves people who really don't want to be involved, it spreads private dissonance into public awareness and makes other people actively uncomfortable towards no greater positive purpose.

quote:


As a huge Alanis fan, I love your quote and wish more people enjoyed it, but what she says is "What I resist, persists" and it's a quote taken from the Conversations with God trilogy by Neale Donald Walsch (Alanis wrote the introduction to the teen edition and is a huge fan of the series, as am I).


Thanks Lucky. Good reasoning behind your statements. The person's post did make me uncomfortable in regard to shame.

Alanis is awesome...Glad I found another fan. I love the "Collection" CD, and just about everything she writes[:D]



irishbynature -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 1:33:52 PM)

Ahhhhhhhhhh Julia...Smiles....you keep on posting Websters Dictionary girl....while you're at it, could you look up the word "Shame?"(((( hugs my bestest girl friend))))[:D]



juliaoceania -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 1:44:34 PM)

Anything for you Irish!

Main Entry: 1shame [image]http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif[/image]
Pronunciation: 'shAm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English scamu; akin to Old High German scama shame
1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion
2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY
3 a : something that brings censure or reproach; also : something to be regretted : PITY <it's a shame you can't go> b : a cause of feeling shame

Like I said, all shame isnt bad, but the feeling comes from within. If someone is constantly shaming us it could be hard for our self esteem to take. But not all shame is bad, it helps us to change our behavior.



impishlilhellcat -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 1:50:28 PM)

I will admit there are stints where I get disciplined often. I am fully deserving of everything I get. Until I learned to communicate better I was one of those people that would often toe the line without actually crossing over to see how far I could push to get some of the attention I needed/wanted. However, when he is upset with me I feel Shame. He's never actually used it to discipline me, but the shame I inflict on myself at having disapointed and displeased him is far worse than any discpline he can inflict upon me. So in response to your question for me there is a distinction.



Tamerofwild1s -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 1:56:48 PM)

to some people the use of shame as a discplinary tool can be quite effective ... it is a reinforced punishment . or discipline ... I am willing to bet that after after having to extole her wrongs in a public forum she will think more then twice before committing the offense again. Every Dom or Master chooses which is best for dealing with his slave or submissive .. and I am sure that once a "shame" or humiliation is commited the after care would be a hugging and telling her she is still loved . and asking her if she understands thereason for "shaming her".
Maybe we are over analyzing her use of the word shame ...



YoungBlondeSlave -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 2:06:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: impishlilhellcat

I will admit there are stints where I get disciplined often. I am fully deserving of everything I get. Until I learned to communicate better I was one of those people that would often toe the line without actually crossing over to see how far I could push to get some of the attention I needed/wanted. However, when he is upset with me I feel Shame. He's never actually used it to discipline me, but the shame I inflict on myself at having disapointed and displeased him is far worse than any discpline he can inflict upon me. So in response to your question for me there is a distinction.


i agree with impish, i too am one to push the envelope and see how far things can go before my owner tells me to stop. Even i think that i would have learned my lesson by now because it destroys me every time i find out that i have disappointed or displeased my owner. Usually he gets over it right away but i do not, i wallow in the shame i feel for having not pleased him. Even if it is not a huge deal like losing count of how many times he strikes me with a flogger i still feel like "oh my God how can i be so stupid to have forgotten what count he was at?!" Even though he is very understanding of the fact that i'm in subspace and when i'm there i don't know my ass from my elbow i still come down on myself quite hard. Times like that there is no need for him to punish since i do well enough on my own. Since i do it so often i rarely get punished outside of my own knowledge that i have disappointed because he feels that most times it's more than enough to teach me a lesson and to correct the improper behavior.



MasterRobert1 -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 2:41:03 PM)

Shame, pain, punishment, humiliation, et cetera, are all tools. Tools to be used property and wisely. I have them in my "tool bag" and I use them, when necessary and fitting.



amayos -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 3:03:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature

I have a question that stirred my curiosity from another thread.  A submissive was told to post how she had been disciplined (stand in a corner, and go for periods  w/out speaking, etc..then go post it on a thread for other submissives...)

The OP stated that the "Shame" that came with the it all was worse than the discipline her Dominant had required. Although I've never been into "Humilation or Discipline" ...I still don't get it.  Shouldn't there be a difference between 'shaming' and 'discipline?' I didn't think making anyone feel "shame" was a part of BDSM? Or is it "To each his/her own? "

I'm definitely not here to judge that situation;  however I simply cannot relate to it or understand it.



Discipline is one's obedience to the will of another or a code of conduct. It is a matter of controlled behavior.

Shame is a painful, powerful feeling made of distress and humiliation.

With those two definitions in mind, one can see how shame can be used—in conjunction with other methods—to enhance discipline and desired behavior. For me, shame is a very powerful emotion I instill in a girl over failure. Shame, guilt, fear, self anger and similar negative emotions are wonderfully useful. Be that as it may, one cannot stress the importance of positive reinforcement, too. Love, desire, happiness, safety and trust are equally important, if not more so.



LeatherBentOne -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 3:16:49 PM)

For me and in my opinion, shame taps into self-esteem so I dont go there; another reason to negotiate other than for just the physical aspect of scening.  What taps into one's self-esteem, may be okay for someone else.  However, discipline and punishment to meet the "crime" are a must for me.  There is nothing more pleasing to me than an obedient sub that I can enjoy rather than spend my time and energy correcting, disciplining and punishing all the time.  My sub is for my pleasure, so I set the ground rules from the beginning.   When I see tears in her eyes and her apology meets my ears if she has any inkling that she might have failed to please me;  if she experiences any shame, it's the shame she has put on herself and the shame that she learns the toughest lessons from.

LeatherBentOne



PlayfulOne -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 3:19:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature

I have a question that stirred my curiosity from another thread.  A submissive was told to post how she had been disciplined (stand in a corner, and go for periods  w/out speaking, etc..then go post it on a thread for other submissives...)

The OP stated that the "Shame" that came with the it all was worse than the discipline her Dominant had required. Although I've never been into "Humilation or Discipline" ...I still don't get it.  Shouldn't there be a difference between 'shaming' and 'discipline?' I didn't think making anyone feel "shame" was a part of BDSM? Or is it "To each his/her own? "

I'm definitely not here to judge that situation;  however I simply cannot relate to it or understand it.

Comments?
Thanks,
Irish




There is a very simple reason you don't understand it .  The path you decided to take was different from what she said.    She plainly stated in one of her post,

quote:


Thank you for your comments. I also thought it was a matter of public shaming, but Master says that was not the case.


Direct quote from the thread that this was never about her Master trying to shame her, but yet several people continued responding, and have now started  this thread as if  that was indeed what was being done.

quote:


As with most things, the disappointment in His voice carries far more shame than the discipline.


This is her remark you are talking about.  Reading her post it was obvious, (except for those who jumped on a tangent and ran with it), she was speaking of personally feeling shame for not finishing the task her Master gave her.  As we continue reading her post  it was obvious that at no point was he trying to shame here.  The shame was self imposed.  But the happy little group decided to ignore that tidbit even after she stated that fact directly from her Master.

The happy little group jumped to the conclusion that he was tyring to shame her and made her list her punishments.  If you read her post I don't see how you can actually come to that conclusion.  I think she just honestly typed out the whole experience.  He wasn't trying to shame her, and was not looking for advice and ideas on how to discipline her (the other tangent the happy little group ran off on). 

quote:


I have been asked to post here and ask for any suggestions on how I might better remember in the future. 


That was all she asked for and about,  he instructed her to post and ask other sub/slaves on ways to help her remember and focus on finishing her daily task.  Nothing about how to discipline her,  nothing about shame, those things were all created by a happy little posting group who would not take the time to actually interpet what she was saying but would rather run off  with their own conclusions.

Since those conclusions had nothing to do with her original post,  maybe that is why you are having such trouble understanding.

Heres another thought you might ponder,  Ever wonder why she quit responding to the thread?

If you are not going to take the time to actually  understand what a poster is asking, why bother answering?

Bitch, moan, yell at me all you want, that will not change the fact you ran her away from her own thread by chasing tangents which had nothing to do with what she asked.

K




Padriag -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 4:11:55 PM)

In all likelihood the post you are referring too used shame / humiliation / embarassment as synonyms, which makes it arguing symantics.  Keep in mind that most are not precise in their use of language, which in most cases if fine.

In your case, you're using shame in the sense Nietzsche did, that is to cause someone to feel degraded.  Nietzsche asked "What is most humane?" and answered, "to spare someone shame."

Humiliation, which often has embarassment associated with it, means to humble or cause to feel humility.  That's quite a bit different than devaluing.  See my essay on Humiliation vs Degradation for my views on each.

Discipline means, as has been pointed out, to correct behavior.  That may or may not involve some humiliation (sometimes you have to first humble their attitude before you can correct their behavior).

Point being is we're talking about several different things.  I do agree however, that shame and degradation should not be part of discipline.  Generally speaking I don't believe either should be part of WIITWD.



LadiesBladewing -> RE: Shame or Discipline? (6/16/2006 4:13:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature

Shouldn't there be a difference between 'shaming' and 'discipline?' I didn't think making anyone feel "shame" was a part of BDSM? Or is it "To each his/her own? "




It pretty much is "to each his own". Discipline, for us, clearly means something different than what it means to the dominant individual you referred to -- but it may work in that dynamic. If it doesn't work, it's up to the individual for whom it's not working to speak to his or her dominant partner about other solutions.

For some, the humiliation of being shamed is a turn-on. I don't understand it, but I'll fight like heck for their right to do it to one another if that's what works for them.

Da'Avatar ZWD

www.klashaan.org



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