RE: What is, "poverty?"

RE: What is, "poverty?" (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:04:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic The average American living in poverty hasn't gone hungry a single night in the last year. They have a car, and color television, and air conditioning, live in a structurally sound house or apartment bigger that than the regular, non-poverty stricken, average resident of Great Britain. The leading health problem among those living in poverty in America is obesity. Got any supporting evidence for any of that? This reminds me of the myths people tell about the homeless. No Jeff, he doesnt. But he is a bit on the inebriated side tonight.

TheHeretic -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:08:45 PM)
"Dignity," should be part of the measure, Absolutchocolat? Who decides what that is? Seems mighty subjective, to me.

littlewonder -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:12:31 PM)
If you cannot afford to eat or pay your bills, if you cannot afford to send your children to school because of torn, ratted, smelly, clothing because you have no water to wash them or to bathe in, if your living conditions are not much better than living in a cardboard box, then you are poor. Now if the reason you are poor is because you are spending it on drugs and alcohol or some other addiction, you are not poor. You are ill. Having lived in poor conditions for the entirety of my childhood, I'm very well aware of what it means to live in poverty. Unfortunately though I see everyday people who consider themselves poor but yet they live in better housing than I do because it's public low income housing, they have internet, they have cable with all the extra channels, have a car, nice clothes and she is always at the hair salon getting her hair done and he's buying a new video game. That's not poor....not even by a longshot.

TheHeretic -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:12:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl But he is a bit on the inebriated side tonight. Damn right, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. [8D]

JeffBC -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:14:13 PM)
I like that definition absolutchocolat. But my brain got to thinking about tackling the question in an entirely different way. All too often I hear these sorts of questions phrased as "entitlements" or "handouts" which we, as a society, provide in as miserly a fashion as possible. When look at in that view of course we want to minimize it. But if I was actually thinking at the societal level as... say... I'd hope the POTUS does... I'd be asking different questions. My goal would be to optimize the entire society. As an ideal, everyone would have access to the things required to get them producing at their maximum potential. So I'd be thinking along the lines of: "So what sort tools must I provide so that everyone can, if they so choose, better themselves (education, transportation, etc.)? In addition, what sort of lifestyle must I provide such that they do not abandon hope (roof, food, health care, modest entertainment, etc)."? I just wish we would tackle these problems from a pragmatic standpoint rather than a moralistic one. I don't need to be a good person to understand that humans become dangerous when placed under substantial survival pressure. That, in my mind, is the basic equation. If I allow more widespread and more severe poverty I will also be increasing crime and civil unrest. In the extreme case I'd expect rebellion. So in a sense I am simply shifting costs for an aesthetic. I pay more for law enforcement and less for "entitlements" if I allow poverty to flourish. I also don't need to be a good person to understand that a person with access to education is likely to be more productive to society than one without. So providing effective education is more an investment in my mind than an entitlement.

jlf1961 -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:15:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder If you cannot afford to eat or pay your bills, if you cannot afford to send your children to school because of torn, ratted, smelly, clothing because you have no water to wash them or to bathe in, if your living conditions are not much better than living in a cardboard box, then you are poor. Now if the reason you are poor is because you are spending it on drugs and alcohol or some other addiction, you are not poor. You are ill. Having lived in poor conditions for the entirety of my childhood, I'm very well aware of what it means to live in poverty. Unfortunately though I see everyday people who consider themselves poor but yet they live in better housing than I do because it's public low income housing, they have internet, they have cable with all the extra channels, have a car, nice clothes and she is always at the hair salon getting her hair done and he's buying a new video game. That's not poor....not even by a longshot. Torn clothing in school is not an indication of poverty, if what I saw today coming out of one of the local highschools is any indication, it seems to be a fashion statement.

littlewonder -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:18:30 PM)
If you read what I said, I said, torn, smelly clothing because you cannot afford to buy or even repair or wash them because you have no water or electricity or heat because you can't afford the bills. I remember being humiliated in school because of that reason and being sent home and then my mom having to figure out how to get us clothing or I would have to beg for them at the local churches.

tazzygirl -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:20:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl But he is a bit on the inebriated side tonight. Damn right, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. [8D] You are wrong.

TheHeretic -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:22:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl You are wrong. Then show you are worthy of them Heresy points you got in your sig.

tazzygirl -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:25:01 PM)
I earned those a long time ago. The poverty list is how I grew up. Its not some made up situation. It was my reality. And would be the reality for many familes if they didnt have the aid you want to take away. Yes, I get your point. Bitching about not having the latest video game, or the XBox, or HBO, isnt poverty. Some of us do know the difference.

TheHeretic -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:36:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl And would be the reality for many familes if they didnt have the aid you want to take away. Either defend that statement, or retract it, Tazzygirl. That is a vicious and slanderous ad hominem, and will be reported as a TOS violation.

tazzygirl -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:38:35 PM)
Go for it.... lol. We both know your position on federal aid which is on many of these threads.

TheHeretic -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:42:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl We both know your position on federal aid which is on many of these threads. Then you've obviously never read a single fucking one of them.

Edwynn -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:43:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic You are aware Edwynn, that US poverty calculations don't include the receipt of benefits such as food stamps, or subsidized housing, right? You might do best to run like hell from this thread, kiddo, because I damn well intend to carry on, at least until the good bourbon seriously kicks in, and you ain't equipped for that. The poverty calculations indeed consider income from whatever source, as anyone who is on food stamps or subsidized housing or SSI are well aware. But in any event, the $11,170 for single, $20,080 for a family of four holds true just as much for the people working at Taco Bell with not a penny government assistance as it does who derive their income partially or totally from the government. You can run, but you cannot hide from the fact that the policies that you and your ilk have been promoting for decades have resulted in ever increasing number of poor people, by whatever measure. Your laughable attempt to dance your way around this fact by claiming that 'there are no poor people' just won't cut it, sorry, peach face.

TheHeretic -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:48:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn The poverty calculations indeed consider income from whatever source, as anyone who is on food stamps or subsidized housing or SSI are well aware. Why would you tell such a stupid lie, Edwynn? Food stamps and housing subsidies are specifically excluded in how the US Census counts the poor.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:49:48 PM)
Poverty is not an income level, it's a state of mind created by social services departments that treat being poor as a character flaw. Having your personal sense of self routinely denigrated through having to beg for the basics to survive is hugely demeaning. Over time it leaves a person lacking in the ability to better themselves. The US has entire generations of families with the poverty mindset. Not to mention all those with such a sense of entitlement they are happy to suck on the government tit and are very savvy at how to apply for any and all benefits. The only way to alter the mind set is through education on both sides of the fence. Here, alcoholism and drug addiction are also considered character flaws instead of health problems. And we all know who well the US handles its peoples' health problems . . .

jlf1961 -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:50:05 PM)
I have re read all of her posts, including the statement that you are drunk, to which you agreed, none of her statements are in violation of the TOS.

Edwynn -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:52:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn The poverty calculations indeed consider income from whatever source, as anyone who is on food stamps or subsidized housing or SSI are well aware. Why would you tell such a stupid lie, Edwynn? Food stamps and housing subsidies are specifically excluded in how the US Census counts the poor. To insert the edit: But in any event, the $11,170 for single, $20,080 for a family of four holds true just as much for the people working at Taco Bell with not a penny government assistance as it does who derive their income partially or totally from the government. You can run, but you cannot hide from the fact that the policies that you and your ilk have been promoting for decades have resulted in ever increasing number of poor people, by whatever measure. Your laughable attempt to dance your way around this fact by claiming that 'there are no poor people' just won't cut it, sorry, peach face.

tazzygirl -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:52:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Poverty is not an income level, it's a state of mind created by social services departments that treat being poor as a character flaw. Having your personal sense of self routinely denigrated through having to beg for the basics to survive is hugely demeaning. Over time it leaves a person lacking in the ability to better themselves. The US has entire generations of families with the poverty mindset. Not to mention all those with such a sense of entitlement they are happy to suck on the government tit and are very savvy at how to apply for any and all benefits. The only way to alter the mind set is through education on both sides of the fence. Here, alcoholism and drug addiction are also considered character flaws instead of health problems. And we all know who well the US handles its peoples' health problems . . . I agree its not an income level... it is a mind set.... yet it can also be situation depending on the circumstances.

TheHeretic -> RE: What is, "poverty?" (11/30/2012 9:56:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 I have re read all of her posts, including the statement that you are drunk, to which you agreed, none of her statements are in violation of the TOS. JLF, every time I start or weigh in on a discussion of government benefits, I make clear that it is right and proper that a nation like ours have a safety net. I find her baseless accusation to be extremely insulting on a personal level and believe that was precisely her goal. She has altered my statements, and Tazzygirl claims a spot way up on the high horse about that.

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