Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (Full Version)

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stellauk -> Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 12:35:53 PM)

quote:


An army of benefit scroungers? The evidence just doesn't stack up
Our research into people on low incomes found little sign of the stereotype of the workshy claimant who doesn't deserve help

We've all heard it, whether from the media or friends; the benefit-scrounging narrative is a cliche. From young mums on the make to the disabled layabouts, the labels are harsh and anecdotal. This pains me, as a NatCen researcher – I don't see any evidence of such a group in the report we at have released today, Poverty in Perspective.

Sadly though, the narrative of undeserving benefit scroungers has been cemented in the public mind. Three-quarters of us think that parents with an addiction (ie drugs or alcohol) are a key cause of child poverty today. About two-thirds think child poverty is a result of parents unwilling to work. But these views simply don't reflect the statistical reality.

Our work with the thinktank Demos gives an accurate and detailed account of Britain's lived experienced of poverty by breaking down the low-income population into groups. From a 2010 dataset, we distilled five groups affected by child poverty: the grafters, vulnerable mothers, full house families, pressured parents and managing mothers.

Together these low-income groups made up about 30% of the UK population – hardly a hidden underclass, with the largest group being the grafters. As the name suggest, this group is a far cry from the stereotype. Some of them are the long-term working poor, while others are self-employed or have recently been made redundant. They own homes, have qualifications and are unlikely to be single parents. They don't conjure up an image of broken Britain, but they certainly are poor.

When you start to measure poverty in a holistic way – as we did – factoring in all the variables, it is very difficult find a group that deserves to be poor, and doesn't deserve help.

Take the vulnerable mother group, perhaps most comparable to the "mums on the make": typically single parents under 24 with young children who represent about 5% of the population as a whole. When you take into account that they are likely to be physically or mentally unwell and have the lowest skills of all the groups affected by child poverty, it is difficult to attach blame. And, importantly, they have aspirations beyond claiming benefits; they want to save money, but cannot afford to.

Or perhaps it's the full house families who are fleecing the taxpayers? Large households with multiple adults and young children, whose biggest problem is overcrowding. Again, on closer inspection, it seems unlikely. This group doesn't fall behind on bills, nor do they have mental health or money problems to the same extent as other groups.

What about the pressured parents group? Low-skilled and low rates of employment could suggest a bunch of scroungers looking to spend more time on the sofa. But they are also more likely to have a disabled child to care for or a child with a health condition, or to experience physical or mental health problems themselves.

And then there are the managing mothers. Qualification rates are good and they tend to think that they're getting by. Although half are out of work, most see unemployment as a temporary problem and have a strong work ethic.

With the government consultation on child poverty taking place, and the search for a new measure of poverty under way, it has never been more important to base our debate on evidence. The idea of the benefit scrounger clearly sticks in the collective British mind, but most of us still think that the government should be responsible for us when we fall on hard times.

Today's report sheds light on these hard times, describing and eliciting the challenges faced by those on low incomes. There are "types" of poverty and we can quantify and measure deprivation, but we cannot separate one group from another as being deserving or undeserving of benefits. Most importantly, these fact-based typologies offer little evidence of a scrounging section of the population.

source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/28/benefit-scroungers-child-poverty-parents


Personally I find it amazing what many people are prepared to believe nowadays on the basis of very little or no evidence.

The 'welfare benefit scrounger' or 'lazy undeserving welfare benefits dependent' is about as common as Scotch mist or a four leafed clover.. In fact I'd say that you've got far more chances of meeting a famous celebrity face to face than yo have of ever coming across a welfare freeloader.

The truth, while it is uncomfortable, is more the fact that the middle class 'f*ck you Jack I'm aright' types need to admit that they like to think the poor are poor because they are undeserving. This is because it means that those of us who are not as broke as they are must be more intelligent, more resourceful, more successful, more talented and in fact better than they are.

Just to prove it we accept and even support policies of the right wing and Cosnervatives which persecute and villify anyone on a lower income than us. We sneer at people who's only mistake was to be born into an environment of poverty where ambition and aspiration are things to which they don't have either access or opportunity. Even when they do get work, it is usually menial or of a 'disgusting' low order that they are still despised and villified by many in society and they are still blamed for not doing better, even when they are working 12 hours a day every day of the week.

Basically we are happy for millions of lives to be wrecked and futures to be destroyed just to satisfy our own desperate needs to feel worthwhile.

The losses from tax evasion are huge.. if tax evasion was a body of water it would be the entire Pacific Ocean. Losses from benefit misuse would be only be enough water to fill a teaspoon.

The teaspoon of water elicits self-righteous indignation and even fury from people right across society, and yet people are complacent in their acceptance of the vast ocean of tax evasion, many spending huge sums of money boosting the profits of corporations who dictate how much and even if they will pay any tax.

You can argue as much as you like for your right wing policies and your tax breaks for the rich and the free market economy.

But until we as a society overcome our idiotic feelings of personal inadequacy and start taking responsibility for our society - including finding ways for people to aspire and succeed beyond welfare - any economic recovery or reduction of deficits is just wishful thinking.




JeffBC -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 12:49:52 PM)

This research has been done time and time again. The answer comes back the same every single time. As you correctly say, insecurity & greed drive a desire to believe in a fiction. Laziness allows it to flourish. In the US, both liberals and conservatives tend to believe in this fairy tale.




ElChupa -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 12:54:32 PM)

We have a dependency culture. Keep feeding a bum... or a dog.. and it will come back to you. The "feeders" and do note NOT with their own money.. is the democrat party. How can you be obama-claus? He has presents for all of his cronies. You want research? Look at Europe. LOOK AT GREECE. We are headed to be Greece. Pure and simple. Enjoy the ride. It's easy. How many BILLIONS were spent on the "war on poverty?" Remember that? We have about the same poverty rate as before. There is your research. As a side note, I never understood how democrats could be considered compassionate and giving when they GIVE with other peoples money? And their so called compassion leads to dependency and suffering? Well, we do have a pretty stupid electorate, that's for sure. Enjoy your obamaphones, muchachos.




Moonhead -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 12:54:49 PM)

It's also a lot less embarrassing to point out the handful of benefit cheats if you're in a position of authority, as unlike tax evaders, it's actually possible to take some sort of action against them.




PeonForHer -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 12:56:47 PM)

Do you remember a time when the term 'asylum seeker' wasn't used with a tone of disgust? That changed, of course. 'Benefits claimant' seems increasingly to be used in the same tone, these days.




Moonhead -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 1:00:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElChupa
Look at Europe.

You mean the continent where the countries with higher tax rates (to pay for all of the freeloaders) have far healthier economies than those like Greece where they thought that they could follow the American model and run their economy on credit?




Level -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 1:04:19 PM)

I work in a court, and we do see a fair number of people on assistance. While certainly not a majority, there is a certain percent that seems.... stuck... if you will.




jlf1961 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 1:59:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElChupa

We have a dependency culture. Keep feeding a bum... or a dog.. and it will come back to you. The "feeders" and do note NOT with their own money.. is the democrat party. How can you be obama-claus? He has presents for all of his cronies. You want research? Look at Europe. LOOK AT GREECE. We are headed to be Greece. Pure and simple. Enjoy the ride. It's easy. How many BILLIONS were spent on the "war on poverty?" Remember that? We have about the same poverty rate as before. There is your research. As a side note, I never understood how democrats could be considered compassionate and giving when they GIVE with other peoples money? And their so called compassion leads to dependency and suffering? Well, we do have a pretty stupid electorate, that's for sure. Enjoy your obamaphones, muchachos.



You know what I find strange, the large number of REPUBLICANS that depend on Social Security and the WEALTHY that depend on tax breaks.




tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 2:03:51 PM)

How about the large number of Republicans who collect millions of dollars while in office.. and collect Social Security afterwards.




DaNewAgeViking -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 2:34:28 PM)

Thus is the power of hate propaganda, pure and simple.
[sm=hissyfit.gif]




PeonForHer -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 3:00:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

Thus is the power of hate propaganda, pure and simple.[/size]



It is. I started noticing some while ago that whenever some scandal involving stupendous greed amongst the big cheeses here in Britain started to kick off, both politicians and the media would begin putting renewed effort into their noises about the scum who are thieving from the benefits system and thereby bringing our economy to its knees.




subspaceseven -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 3:02:26 PM)

and get great health benefits for life, all paid for by the US taxpayer.......




TizzyTara -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 3:14:06 PM)

This is an interesting topic. I can't comment for the situation in America as I live in Australia. But what I do know from knowing folk here is that often times those that need real help don't get it while those that don't need real help.... get it because they know how to rort the system.

People with a disability require more than basic welfare assistance because of their often high cost medical needs both in attending doctors and also in the medications they require.
Parents of disable children are in the same boat.

Single mums do it tough as they struggle to raise their children. The single mums I know are all budget conscious and they work really hard to raise their children in adverse circumstances.

What gets me is when I see folk rorting the system. I know a couple here who have been life long welfare careerists. They pull every trick in the book and then some. Now.... that annoys me. Fortunately, they spend most of it on their daughter so she is being brought up and not going without.

However, most folk on welfare would rather not be on welfare. But it's hard in today's climate to get a job.





TizzyTara -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 3:16:34 PM)

Peonforher: good point. Here in Australia our politicians are the biggest burden on the coffers. They give themselves massive pay rises all the time and then some.




JeffBC -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 3:17:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
It is. I started noticing some while ago that whenever some scandal involving stupendous greed amongst the big cheeses here in Britain started to kick off, both politicians and the media would begin putting renewed effort into their noises about the scum who are thieving from the benefits system and thereby bringing our economy to its knees.

LOL. Yes, that or a good war is good to get the citizenry distracted. Let's remember that here in the US we just paid the bankers trillions (of which the execs gave themselves some very, very plush bonuses) yet it is those cursed poor and their food stamps which is sucking the lifeblood from our economy.




JeffBC -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 3:21:20 PM)

Actually, the research we would all like is the research that supports your claim that this class of poverty ridden leeches even exists. We have ample evidence to know that the wealthy are sucking the lifeblood from our economy. A simple "follow the money" analysis yields straight forward results. But this whole thing with the poor somehow accumulating enough power to do so. That I'd like to see some evidence on because it sort of beggars my imagination. Typically, in any society, the poor have little power.




erieangel -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 3:33:36 PM)

quote:

We have a dependency culture.


Really??

Yeah, I guess you may be right when we have multimillionaires saying they'd never be able to handle a 4% increase in their taxes.

Now that's the greatest dependency I can name.





Politesub53 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 4:43:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

Thus is the power of hate propaganda, pure and simple.[/size]



It is. I started noticing some while ago that whenever some scandal involving stupendous greed amongst the big cheeses here in Britain started to kick off, both politicians and the media would begin putting renewed effort into their noises about the scum who are thieving from the benefits system and thereby bringing our economy to its knees.



Thats nothing new Peon. Did you see IDS explode when Will Owen had the check to mention someone died, a day after the DWP found him fit to work in one of their so called medicals......... Run by a two bob French firm paid by results ffs...... If you are testing peoples health, and paid by results to fail them, guess which option they end up taking.

Yes chaps, I know I voted for the shits but hey ho.




Politesub53 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 4:46:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElChupa

We have a dependency culture. Keep feeding a bum... or a dog.. and it will come back to you. The "feeders" and do note NOT with their own money.. is the democrat party. How can you be obama-claus? He has presents for all of his cronies. You want research? Look at Europe. LOOK AT GREECE. We are headed to be Greece. Pure and simple. Enjoy the ride. It's easy. How many BILLIONS were spent on the "war on poverty?" Remember that? We have about the same poverty rate as before. There is your research. As a side note, I never understood how democrats could be considered compassionate and giving when they GIVE with other peoples money? And their so called compassion leads to dependency and suffering? Well, we do have a pretty stupid electorate, that's for sure. Enjoy your obamaphones, muchachos.



Get a clue before spouting off......... People collecting benefits have usually paid into the system. The notion they have all never worked is just spread about by the right, and sadly at times, the left. You have fallen into the trap of believing all the illogical shit you tend to read.




stef -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 4:52:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Get a clue before spouting off.........

Based on what he's posted in these forums to date, do you really think that's even remotely possible?




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