RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 8:29:12 PM)

I think the point was the difference between welfare and corporate... not corporate and everyone else. Many of those corporations get tax breaks for building where they do as well.



tj444 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 8:33:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I think the point was the difference between welfare and corporate... not corporate and everyone else. Many of those corporations get tax breaks for building where they do as well.

and my point is that if you try to pretend that the mortgage interest tax deduction on a personal residence isnt also a form of welfare then you are.. a hypocrite.. people wanna bitch about tax breaks they cant get but want to ignore tax breaks they do get & pretend they are somehow different.. they arent..



tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 8:37:15 PM)

I didnt see anyone come close to making that claim.

I cant tell if you are taking the article kalik posted to task or not.



tj444 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 8:44:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I didnt see anyone come close to making that claim.

and yet the mortage interest tax deduction/scam is always conveniently forgotten by both people bitchin about corps & those bitchin about welfare and especially forgotten by the "think tanks" that come up with these articles..

Some politician somewhere along the line got the idea to bribe voters with their own money by inventing the mortgage interest rate tax deduction..

hey, it doesnt matter to me, its your country and your deficeit.. I just find it amusing how some people dont see that the tax breaks they love so much are also a form of "welfare"..



tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 8:45:16 PM)

Oh, we all know the middle class gets a good deal of their own tax breaks.... yet there is no disputing the fact that they are the most squeezed on the deal as well.



Marini -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 8:46:51 PM)

quote:

You can argue as much as you like for your right wing policies and your tax breaks for the rich and the free market economy.

But until we as a society overcome our idiotic feelings of personal inadequacy and start taking responsibility for our society - including finding ways for people to aspire and succeed beyond welfare - any economic recovery or reduction of deficits is just wishful thinking.


[sm=goodpost.gif]

In the midst of all the chatter about policies/programs and "solutions", I rarely hear about programs/policies/solutions that are aimed or designed
to really change people's lives/or situations "long term" or permanently.

Great post Stella!



jlf1961 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 8:51:32 PM)

Okay, the IDEAL system would be a complete workfare system, where recipients worked toward getting off the programs.

Yes Obama has voiced a plan that would allow states to get waivers to eliminate the work requirement.

In truth, IF both the Republicans and Democrats would work together to fix the fucking economy and put Americans back to work the total number of people on these programs would drop dramatically.

Of course that would mean that wealthy Republican Business owners would have to stop shipping jobs over seas.

Gee if they did that, unemployment would drop.

Go figure.



tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 8:56:01 PM)

I would also like to remind people that many on welfare are also the blind, disabled and the elderly. To say this is a system of lazy people is wrong.



tj444 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 8:57:01 PM)

well, Canada doesnt have that generous tax deduction on personal residences.. its considered by some to be a high tax country.. it has good national health care.. and from what I have seen, a pretty financially healthy middle class..

so you can try to justify the tax deduction if you want.. like I said, its your country, your deficeit.. [sm=dunno.gif]





tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 8:59:13 PM)

Oh I am not trying to justify it at all. Im the flat tax girl. No deductions, tax as low as poverty level.



Aswad -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 10:02:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

That? You mean things aren't working out so well in Germany.. That role model of austerity that everyne including the Germans like to point to? I'd rather look at Iceland who threw the crooks in jail and bailed out the victims.


Yeah, the German model is problematic: their poorest are sliding down from a European lower class standard of living to an American middle class standard of living, which isn't the case in Iceland, Norway, Sweden or Denmark, at the very least, all of which have only a fraction of what the Germans have in terms of skills, natural resources and the like, plus fewer people with a more rural population density (which is more expensive to deal with).

IWYW,
— Awsad.



jlf1961 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 10:07:37 PM)

Might I suggest a solution, give me control of ALL the money currently in circulation and in private holdings, I will keep 50% as a handling fee, and then divide the remainder among every living soul on the planet and all the governments.



Aswad -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 10:11:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Oh I am not trying to justify it at all. Im the flat tax girl. No deductions, tax as low as poverty level.


You might enjoy the suggestion by the Liberal Left here, which was to integrate the two. Essentially, that anyone earning less than $35.000 per year after tax would be padded up to that level ("citizen wages"), while anything earned above that would have a flat tax of 30% or so, with the universal health care, universal education and all that being financed from this tax, so that won't be part of what you pay anyway. No deductions, and no "corrections" for civil status etc.

Doesn't get much simpler than that, and turns out the numbers work out, though I still think an incentive slope would be good, if it could be integrated without making the tax code too complex to gain the benefits. If we implement it here at any point, that would have the side benefit of taking out the primary objection to legalizing polyamorous marriages: the difficulties in classifying such "poliages" for taxes, and updating the tax codes and software to deal with the change. Simpler can, sometimes, be better.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



Aswad -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 10:18:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Might I suggest a solution, give me control of ALL the money currently in circulation and in private holdings, I will keep 50% as a handling fee, and then divide the remainder among every living soul on the planet and all the governments.


Absolutely not. I've seen nothing to suggest you would divide it in a manner that wouldn't wreak havoc with the global economy and thus devaluate all the currency to the point where we spend a century just undoing the damage. Same goes for most schemes involving rapid relocation of funds, whoever implements them.

There's a neat trick to stability: incremental changes with a well defined scope and a reasonably well characterized risk profile.

If you're looking to get radical, there's other ideas that are way more attractive, like (a) not putting all the eggs in one basket, (b) comparing how the eggs are doing between baskets subjected to different conditions, (c) defining metrics for the goals we have, (d) checking to find out what strategies actually improve those metrics, (e) doing more of what works, (f) doing less of what doesn't work, (g) deriving political theories from actual models, ideally ones with some predictive power, or at least agreeing with past data.

A nice post from /. commented (approximately):

Genious is leaping from A to C, then going back to fill in B.
Insanity is leaping from A to C, when B doesn't connect them.
The vast majority of political thought falls into the latter category.

I can only nod my head in agreement.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



jlf1961 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 10:20:35 PM)

Hey, there would be no poor, corporations would still have their money, and the governments would not be using any creative accounting techniques to balance budgets.

And I made it clear, I will only keep 50% for myself as payment for services rendered.



Edwynn -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 10:31:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElChupa

LOOK AT GREECE. We are headed to be Greece. Pure and simple.


You hit the hammer on the nail, there.

Greece's biggest problem was on the revenue side; numerous tax cuts, almost every tax loophole imaginable, and near non-enforcement in many sectors.

You know, just what your kind argue for incessantly.


So if we keep listening to you and your kind, we are most definitely headed toward what befalls Greece now.





tj444 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 11:11:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Oh I am not trying to justify it at all. Im the flat tax girl. No deductions, tax as low as poverty level.

I am a flat tax girl too and have been for a long time,.. just its one of those things I never see happening..



tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 11:14:29 PM)

I dont either. It would take too many hands out of the cookie jar.



metamorfosis -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/2/2012 11:35:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
In fact I'd say that you've got far more chances of meeting a famous celebrity face to face than yo have of ever coming across a welfare freeloader.


I've beaten those odds several times, and I don't know that many people.

Pam



Edwynn -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 1:10:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
In fact I'd say that you've got far more chances of meeting a famous celebrity face to face than yo have of ever coming across a welfare freeloader.


I've beaten those odds several times, and I don't know that many people.

Pam




What measures or other criteria do you use to distinguish between a normal benefit recipient as opposed to the freeloader?

Not all of us are able to render that assessment with such facility merely upon coming across some recipient.






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