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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/10/2012 3:35:04 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
A private company living off government money is a government owned pseudo-private company.



How do you come to say that?




If a private company relies on government money to survive or to do research, it is more reliant on the tax payer than the market it is supposed to be competing in.

The world is full of private companies governments protect and refuse to allow to go bust because the private companies have their government by the balls over national security.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/10/2012 7:43:00 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
A private company living off government money is a government owned pseudo-private company.



How do you come to say that?




If a private company relies on government money to survive or to do research, it is more reliant on the tax payer than the market it is supposed to be competing in.

The world is full of private companies governments protect and refuse to allow to go bust because the private companies have their government by the balls over national security.


Can't disagree with that. Seeing as how I was responding to Rule's scenario, I'd say you buttressed my rebuttal as his scenario has wiped out private risk capital.


edit: I guess high taxes really do work

California State Controller John Chiang has announced that total state revenue for the month of November 2012 fell $806.8 million, or 10.8%, below budget.

Democrats thought they could hammer “the rich” by convincing voters to pass Proposition 30 to create the highest state income tax in the nation. But it now appears that high income earners have already “voted with their feet” by moving themselves and their businesses out of state, resulting in over $1 billion shortfall in corporate and income taxes last month and the beginning of a new financial crisis.

and this end of the article is a humdinger -

As panic spreads that goosing taxes on the rich may have created enough “tax flight” that the California will actually collect less taxes, there was welcome news that a business had committed to opening in the State. Executives of the 99 Cents Only Stores Inc. proclaimed they would be opening a new location in Beverly Hills on formerly posh Rodeo Drive.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 12/10/2012 8:06:09 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 282
RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/10/2012 9:49:24 PM   
erieangel


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Joined: 6/19/2011
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quote:

A new car though? Really? A Toyota with 30,000 miles, of similar size to the sort of new cars that can be had in the $15k range, wasn't good enough? The depreciation hit, in exchange for seeing the odometer turn 10, surrounded by that new car smell, certainly isn't a luxury I can afford. Shit. You can replace your appliances for what it costs you the moment those brand new tires leave the dealership's driveway.


Yeah a new car. A Toyota Yaris. I traded in the 13 year old Saturn that I kept pouring into and still owned $4,000 on after buying it 2 years before from a J. D. Buy Rider. I had the $4,000 to pay off the Saturn and used it instead as a cash down payment for the Yaris; rolled $2,000 I still owed on the Saturn into the new car loan after the $2,000 I got for the trade. My payments are $10 a month more and I have no maintenance, don't even have to pay for an oil change for another 16 months. In the 2 years I had the Saturn, I put $1400 worth of repairs into it with another several grand being covered by the dealer warranty. But 2 of the repairs required me to take the car all the way to Cleveland (nearly 100 miles) and rent a vehicle for the week or more that it was there. And instead of going through an entire tank of gas each week just to get to and from work, I use about 1/4 tank. So now I can afford to visit family, friends and have a night out once in a while.

Yes, my life is pretty good compared to those people who are homeless, penniless and without hope. But my financial life could be better. I haven't had a raise in 3 years, nobody at my agency has had a raise. Last year, for the first time in its 50 year history, my agency had to lay off some staff when one of the programs was defunded by the county. Six months later, the county re-opened the program within a different agency with many structural changes to it. Both of my nephews are in that program and my brother told me just today that he and his wife have been fighting with the agency because they don't have the boys in speech classes. Neither of them talk and the older one does have a communication tablet but that isn't speech. The younger one, who actually has never talked doesn't even have a tablet. The older boy has talked, will talk when he feels an overwhelming need to do so--about 1 or 2 times a year--but isn't encouraged by his school or by his treatment team to do so to communicate.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 283
RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/10/2012 11:21:15 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
Yeah a new car. A Toyota Yaris. I traded in the 13 year old Saturn that I kept pouring into and still owned $4,000 on after buying it 2 years before from a J. D. Buy Rider. I had the $4,000 to pay off the Saturn and used it instead as a cash down payment for the Yaris; rolled $2,000 I still owed on the Saturn into the new car loan after the $2,000 I got for the trade. My payments are $10 a month more and I have no maintenance, don't even have to pay for an oil change for another 16 months. In the 2 years I had the Saturn, I put $1400 worth of repairs into it with another several grand being covered by the dealer warranty. But 2 of the repairs required me to take the car all the way to Cleveland (nearly 100 miles) and rent a vehicle for the week or more that it was there. And instead of going through an entire tank of gas each week just to get to and from work, I use about 1/4 tank. So now I can afford to visit family, friends and have a night out once in a while.

I hear ya on that.. The Yaris is my fav car.. My mother had an Toyota Echo that was replaced by the yaris, her echo got amazing gas mileage (I was really impressed) and so does the Yaris.. but they stopped making the Yaris as a sedan & I really like a sedan over the choices now.. the camry comes close to it tho so when I buy a new car, it will be one or the other.. Neither one is high priced and half the price of some of them fancy-smanchy hybrids (that get about the same mileage.. ).. and they are solid, not tinny sounding and cheaply made ready to fall apart like Huyndia or some of those others..
Good for you!..

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/12/2012 3:13:17 AM   
MariaB


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Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Meatcleaver

Its just another way of divvying up taxes in a more complex way. You and I both know that property is no longer equivalent to wealth and neither is land.
Social housing in the UK isn’t just in poor areas and neither are rentals. Tenants pay the council tax and not the landlords. Council tax bands are much higher in certain areas than in others but social housing is everywhere because with every new housing estate built, a percentage has to be allocated to social housing. This means we have social housing in high band areas.
What about first time buyers? Gone are the days when ones children can buy a house on the same street or even in the same town as their family. How will Land value tax change this? I understand that speculation and sprawl of housing would bring house prices down but if the 'first time buyers' can't afford the 'Land Value Tax' then nothing has changed.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 285
RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/12/2012 3:30:00 AM   
IgorsHand


Posts: 74
Joined: 12/9/2012
Status: offline 		Land Value Tax makes a lot of sense because it really taxes wealth, not work. It means people sitting on assets waiting for the market to increase their value, without doing anything industrious with those assets, will be penalised.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/08/land-value-tax

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/sep/16/land-value-tax-revamp


(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 286
RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/12/2012 4:18:32 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Nobody says being poor doesn't suck. It's supposed to. That's what encourages people to stop.


People want to escape poverty because poverty within the system makes people invisible.
Those who live in a materialistic world will always aspire to making more money, being wealthier and showing off that wealth.

But you really shouldn't project your emotions about poverty on everyone else. Not everyone minds being poor.
We opted out of the system 5 years ago. We sold off our negative equity properties that tied us down. We gave back the company car and the keys to the office. We sold all our furniture, most of our cloths and threw the rest of our possessions, including what is now my faithful old laptop, onto our old jalopy of a boat.
We gave up being blue collar works living in suburbia. We turned our back on the white picket fence, the manicured lawn and
judgmental materialistic neighbors who worried about us getting their driveway wet when we washed our car and sailed off into the blue.
What we discovered was we weren't the only ones that had put two fingers up at the system. There were lots of us and we all helped each other out. For 4 years We lived in a barter world where work was exchanged for work and food for food. Its a real tough life but by god we embraced it with such energy and we never once questioned why we had done this.
Our wealth was the ocean and the good people who embraced us.

Now we live in France where the wealthy are frowned upon and being a 'peasant' is something to be proud of. The French people have embraced us because we live a very simple life with few material possessions.
Our neighbor is an 89 year old man who lives alone in a one roomed house. We all take it in turns to go round and stoke his fire and give him warm food. He laughs all the time showing his only 2 yellow teeth. He's never known what it is to have money, he's never needed to. His wealth is his wisdom.
Our wealth now is the mountains, the blue skies, the woodpecker who looks for grubs in the old wooden timbers of the house and the old man who lives next door.
We have found that the less we own the richer is our home.
I'm not romanticizing being poor but it depends how you live and where you live.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 287
RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/12/2012 4:31:16 AM   
Rule


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"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 288
RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/12/2012 9:10:06 AM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Now we live in France where the wealthy are frowned upon and being a 'peasant' is something to be proud of. The French people have embraced us because we live a very simple life with few material possessions.

Apparently, the French are considering raising taxes on very high income earners/rich from 50% to 75% and now there is an exodus of those that would be affected.. the big rush to get out of France will happen if that becomes law, of course.. from your description, I guess they wont be missed!..

Some rich live simply & well below their means, some drive plain jane older cars not expensive new ones, some live in the same basic house they bought years ago.. The difference is, that money can afford a person more choices, especially if the political climate changes.. Having been poor with very few choices, the attraction for me to make money is that it would give me more choices.. and for me, there would be a greater feeling of security.. especially when the unexpected happens.. and in even some extreme cases, the ability to pay for a plane ticket to get out of town & hotel room could even potentially save your life.. such as can happen with a hurricane.. or pay for meds not covered by health care.. the ability to pay for their kids college.. the ability to own a small chunk of land can allow you to grow your own organic healthy food, etc.. Poor people tend not to have those choices..

I dont care if I become very rich or not, but I want choices that give me a certain level of comfort (meaning a feeling of security) which I could not have if I was a "peasant" (been there, done that).. and that means not just today, but 20 years from now or when I am in my last years (this is a fear of mine, I dont want to end up in a "warehouse" where the govt dictates what care I get, or dont get).. That is the way I see things, for me.. I am not suggesting anyone live differently than they want to.. everyone has their own comfort level, of course..

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Profile   Post #: 289
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