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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/4/2012 9:52:55 PM   
tazzygirl


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Teaching them to save money in school, then sending them home to a house with no money, no savings, no prospects for the future.... seems a lesson in futility to me.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/4/2012 10:04:47 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Thus, the baby boomers’ aging would have boosted enrollment in the DI program even if no other factors had changed.

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/43421-DisabilityInsurance_screen.pdf

A person doesnt need to be a genius to have expected that the baby boomers would have an effect on the system as they age..
I sorta find the US scary in that the people in charge, the elected politicians (both the Ds & Rs), have mis-managed the country so badly and regardless of the propaganda, I dont see it getting managed any better now or in the future.. they seem to just change the "rules" to compensate for their mis-management and when they change the rules, people that need help get screwed..

"CBO projects that the DI trust fund will be exhausted by 2016, nearly 20 years before the projected
exhaustion of the trust fund for the Social Security retirement program."


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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/4/2012 10:11:56 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

"CBO projects that the DI trust fund will be exhausted by 2016, nearly 20 years before the projected
exhaustion of the trust fund for the Social Security retirement program."


Just one of many things that needs to be changed. Removing the cap would help tremendously.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/4/2012 10:14:10 PM   
epiphiny43


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The problems aren't welfare class people, it's the middle class being hollowed out by the divergence of income and education along strict economic/inheritance lines. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20154358
China solves the problem differently, with an education system that assumes ALL students are capable of mastering all the basic material and the rest of the society expects that. China is already publishing more science papers than the US, (Lower sophistication level, but rising fast) with a basically Third World economy because they Invest in Education as a national goal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17585201
From the article:

On a recent trip to a poor province in China, he says he saw that schools were often the most impressive buildings.

He says in the West, it is more likely to be a shopping centre.

"You get an image of a society that is investing in its future, rather than in current consumption."

There were also major cultural differences when teenagers were asked about why people succeeded at school.

"North Americans tell you typically it's all luck. 'I'm born talented in mathematics, or I'm born less talented so I'll study something else.'

"In Europe, it's all about social heritage: 'My father was a plumber so I'm going to be a plumber'.

"In China, more than nine out of 10 children tell you: 'It depends on the effort I invest and I can succeed if I study hard.'

"They take on responsibility. They can overcome obstacles and say 'I'm the owner of my own success', rather than blaming it on the system."
This is a Cultural view that comes from many sources and isn't sabotaged by the mass media/TV/Hollywood and the constant ads to consume more. Most of Chinese citizens are satisfied with their government because they believe it is working for a better future for all. Most Americans are not satisfied though the malaise is not simply focused. We get what happens when smart business people decide national goals on the basis of their personal and corporate incomes during the immediately foreseeable future, particularly as they affect the stock markets. People feel the effects that are eating our economy, but don't make the necessary connections to a wealthy Senate and bought and paid for legislature selling our future to the highest bidders.
The most obvious of goals are disrespected, such as dissinvesting in higher education in future dependent disciplines. As the first link discusses, a whole generation is not seeing college as a way to a good life or even a stable income. And their 'vision' is clear. A letter to that article discusses in more stark terms what is actually a war by the upper income classes against the middle and working classes. They are winning, the US is losing it's future from this. That so many working people in the US buy the propaganda of the party representing the corporate and investment groups who are gutting the national economy is astounding. And Very depressing. Many countries much poorer than the US are educating their lower and middle school kids far better than the US and most industrialized nations have a better % of the population actually achieving a graduate level and Working in the area. Chinese education in the rural and poor areas would be the envy of most any 1st world country and far surpasses ours.
The US has the most economically stratified access to college and achievement in higher education of industrialized countries. The promise of 'opportunity' is for exceptional and lucky individuals and is no longer being delivered to the majority of Americans. The Wharton School graduates are getting rich. Most come from families with huge incomes already. As has been the history of the actual ruling elite in the NE urban areas for centuries. The mass education of the 20th century and the GI Bill are endangered and disappearing. Only in America is a mortgage available at 3% and college loans cost 7.9%. Then there is the privatization of colleges, far more now being run by for-profit corporations. People with BAs and MAs are working for minimum wage and glad to get that. No hope of digging out from under crushing college loans. College costs skyrocket every year and the available wages have been stagnant for over a generation. Pay for the top of all institutions has more than outpaced inflation or any reasonable increase in group efficiency.
Yahoo News today: Sen. Marco Rubio just finished paying off student loan debt. Senator Rubio was previously Speaker of the House for FL, not my idea of a hardship job.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/4/2012 10:20:12 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Teaching them to save money in school, then sending them home to a house with no money, no savings, no prospects for the future.... seems a lesson in futility to me.

really? you would give up on them before they even have a chance? wow..

Even kids can earn money.. if its their money, they need to learn how to manage it, save it, spend it wisely, invest wisely, etc..

you know, imo the worst thing you can tell someone is to not bother cuz they wont amount to anything or ever change their situation.. Your "lesson in futility" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy..

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/4/2012 10:33:50 PM   
tazzygirl


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No one said not to bother.... but how much would you care about the money you cant save, spend, hold or invest? If it cant be applied, it wont be fully understood or utilized. I understand what you are saying.. and the intentions are good.

Hands on Banking® Instructor Guide Kids’ Version (Grades 4 and 5)

http://www.handsonbanking.org/en/resources/Kids_T_Guide.pdf

quote:

In Northeast NY, many schools participate in the School Banking Program at First Niagara Bank with the help of parent volunteers. If your school doesn’t have one already, consider starting one. It’s easy!


http://albanykid.com/2011/04/07/savings-accounts-for-kids-teach-good-financial-habits/

Many schools already teach these things... and its not helping.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/4/2012 10:51:13 PM   
Rule


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I have seen you make a fair number of posts in this thread that I agree with, tj444.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/4/2012 11:05:34 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No one said not to bother.... but how much would you care about the money you cant save, spend, hold or invest? If it cant be applied, it wont be fully understood or utilized. I understand what you are saying.. and the intentions are good.

Hands on Banking® Instructor Guide Kids’ Version (Grades 4 and 5)

http://www.handsonbanking.org/en/resources/Kids_T_Guide.pdf

quote:

In Northeast NY, many schools participate in the School Banking Program at First Niagara Bank with the help of parent volunteers. If your school doesn’t have one already, consider starting one. It’s easy!


http://albanykid.com/2011/04/07/savings-accounts-for-kids-teach-good-financial-habits/

Many schools already teach these things... and its not helping.

no, it sounds like its the banks, not schools.. I am not pro-bank tho and feel banks lie to people.. they make a lot of money getting people to give them money that they "manage" (meaning give a low interest rate and lend out at much higher & charging fees, etc) be it savings accounts or IRAs.. people (& kids) need to manage & invest their own money, not turn it over to a bankster.. So maybe if its not helping, thats the reason why..

Florida teen landlord turns foreclosure crisis into opportunity
Not bad for a kid with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) who left a gifted school because teachers told her mom her daughter couldn't focus.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57515470/florida-teen-landlord-turns-foreclosure-crisis-into-opportunity/

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/4/2012 11:11:03 PM   
tazzygirl


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lol.. who do you think would bring those programs into the schools?

quote:

Tufano is a landlord. She's likely Florida's youngest landlord, taking her cues from her realtor Mom who buys cheap bank-owned homes.


Not exactly from the poor demographic we are talking about.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 209
RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/4/2012 11:34:26 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

lol.. who do you think would bring those programs into the schools?

quote:

Tufano is a landlord. She's likely Florida's youngest landlord, taking her cues from her realtor Mom who buys cheap bank-owned homes.


Not exactly from the poor demographic we are talking about.

how do you know? most realtors dont make a decent income.. how much do you think her mom makes selling houses worth only 10 or 20k? and she would be splitting that commission with the listing/selling realtor.. she would have to sell a heck of a lot of houses.. The median income for realtors in that part of FL is not that high.. that is not what i would call rich, I wouldnt even call it middle income.. many poor people work and have jobs, and some are realtors
http://www.rileyguide.com/careers/real-estate-agents.shtml

The kid would have had to sell a lot of second hand stuff to make that kinda money.. but its what any kid can do also (no matter the demographic), or do some of the things other kids that have found to make money..

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/5/2012 5:08:06 AM   
tazzygirl


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From your article.

quote:

(CBS News) NORTH PORT, Fla. - A report out today says America's home builders are more optimistic about a turnaround in the housing market than at any time since the bubble burst. That's exactly what one 15-year-old girl in Florida is betting on as well.



Shannon Moore
Shannon Moore is a native born Floridian who has lived in many communities along the Southwest coast between Bradenton and Port Charlotte. Expecting her third child, Shannon found herself in need of a larger home. The search for the perfect house gave her a passion for real estate.

She even enticed her mother to enter the profession. In their first year, Shannon and Roxanne Moore achieved $10 million in sales in everything from vacant land to investment properties and residential housing. This earned them the Prudential Chairman’s Circle – Platinum award, which is only achieved by two percent of Prudential agents. The duo has been so successful in their first two years, they have formed the Moore & Moore Team to spread the work around and better serve their clients.


http://www.tropicalfloridaproperty.com/default.asp.f-aboutme

quote:

how do you know? most realtors dont make a decent income.. how much do you think her mom makes selling houses worth only 10 or 20k? and she would be splitting that commission with the listing/selling realtor.. she would have to sell a heck of a lot of houses..


10 million, 5% commission for seller... split between mom and grandmom ... 1250,000 each

Commissions are negotiable, but the standard is 6 percent of the sale price, or about $11,600 on a median-priced home in Broward County. The seller usually pays the fee, which is split evenly between the agents on both sides of the deal.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-09-14/business/fl-real-estate-commissions-20110914_1_average-commission-agents-home-sellers

300,000 (approximate) for a cost of an average sized home... 33 homes in 2 years. 11,600 x 33 = 363,000 / 2 (between seller and buying agent) = 181,500 / 2 (between mom and grandmom) 90,750.

90,750 doesnt make mom a millionaire... but its hardly poor or poverty.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/5/2012 5:24:38 AM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/5/2012 5:13:41 AM   
DomYngBlk


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Stella, you've summed it up well. I couldn't agree more

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/5/2012 10:18:45 AM   
tj444


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that was dated April 2006, back at the peak of the market.. I sorta doubt she is making that kinda money today.. and if she was separated from her kids dad, then she was a single mom and likely the sole support for her family for many years.. I have not read anything about the dad which is very odd if they are still together (which I very much doubt).. She is white tho, so she definately has that advantage.. (since black & hispanic people have greater numbers in poverty)

I bought my first house when I was 21. I grew up dirt poor and my mother was just a farmer and nurse (not a realtor).. I moved to the city and was on my own right after i turned 17, supporting myself with a part time job as I went to school finishing my grade 12.. She never taught me about investing or saving or budgeting (neither did school). I was a kid on my own and didnt know how anything worked in the real world, I didnt even know how to catch a bus in the city.. But one thing my mother told me was that I was smart and could do anything I set my mind to do.. Most poor people dont tell their kids that, which imo is a lot of the reason their kids end up poor also.. so I find your attitude of teaching kids when they come from a poor home with no future prospects being a lesson in futility to be exactly why poor people are kept poor.. No one thinks there is any point.. and how do you think that affects the whole country?

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/5/2012 10:32:49 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

that was dated April 2006, back at the peak of the market.. I sorta doubt she is making that kinda money today.. and if she was separated from her kids dad, then she was a single mom and likely the sole support for her family for many years.. I have not read anything about the dad which is very odd if they are still together (which I very much doubt).. She is white tho, so she definately has that advantage.. (since black & hispanic people have greater numbers in poverty)


In her spare time, she enjoys spending time with her husband, three daughters and two dogs. It was when she was expecting her third child and in need of a more spacious home that she developed a passion for real estate. That passion even led her to enticing her mother to join the profession with her.

They incorporated in 2010.... Hubby still in the picture.

http://www.greenlionrealty.com/agents/shannon/

They seem to be very busy women.

http://www.twomoores.com/othersites

And I totally applaud all they have accomplished. But the comparison between this family and someone in poverty is night and day.


< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/5/2012 10:33:03 AM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/5/2012 10:46:20 AM   
tj444


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My focus was on what the teenager was doing, especially since she has adhd.. she was earning her own money and learning to invest it so that it makes her money.. there are others like her, finding ways to make money using their computers and the internet... I think its easier today for kids to make money than when i was a kid.. but again, it takes encouragement (not discouragement) and knowing what to do with the money when you get it and how to keep it.. things that are apparently according to you, a lesson on futility with those in poverty.. and usually that attitude is what is portrayed as what comes out of all the R's mouths..

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/5/2012 11:01:35 AM   
tazzygirl


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ADHD isnt a factor here. Many people with ADHD become successful. Many with it are not in poverty. Thats what this thread is about. It all has to do with the support and guidance they are given from their parents. I still think its a lesson in futility when the parents may not even have a checking account. The ability to make a success of one's life would definitely come after the ability to simply survive.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/5/2012 12:16:57 PM   
tj444


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ffs.. that is why it all needs to be taught in schools.. cuz the parents cant teach their kids what they dont know.. which is what I already said.. taught in schools with good unbiased information, not tossed a brochure from a bank with their own selfish agenda.. and if that is what serves as that kind of education in schools then duh, no wonder its not working..

and I am not sure why I should care when so many Americans themselves dont seem to care about their own and consider it an exercise in futility.. I guess I shouldnt either.. so congrats, you have converted me..

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/5/2012 12:28:03 PM   
tazzygirl


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oh ffs... banks dont toss out a pamplet... they develop courses for the teachers to use to teach the students.

But, yes, you know all about poverty and what its like to not feel like you can survive, let alone save two dollars when the food stamps cant stretch for the whole month.

If they arent secure in having a place to sleep and a roof over their heads, let alone clothes on their backs, lights always on and health care, why the hell would I expect them to care about how much interest they will earn on a bank account.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/5/2012 2:07:26 PM   
papassion


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You people surely are sophisticated enough to know that any government "investigation" into welfare fraud, etc will be "slanted" to show welfare fraud is almost nonexistant. How would it look to the public that THEIR tax money is being wasted on layabouts? Wouldn't it be admitting the government is not efficient in preventing welfare fraud if it found a lot?

As far as people saying they don't know any welfare cheaters so welfare fraud must be bullshit. Do you personally know any bigtime drug dealers? Oh you don't? I guess the drug problem in the US and Mexico must be a bunch of bullshit too, right? And the 50,000 dead people killed in the Mexican drug trade must be a fairytale too.

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RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just does... - 12/5/2012 2:17:13 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


You people surely are sophisticated enough to know that any government "investigation" into welfare fraud, etc will be "slanted" to show welfare fraud is almost nonexistant. How would it look to the public that THEIR tax money is being wasted on layabouts? Wouldn't it be admitting the government is not efficient in preventing welfare fraud if it found a lot?



It's the opposite here in the UK - the government and the right wing press want to 'big up' welfare fraud. The government spins it so that benefits cheats look clever as well as nasty rather than investigators look incompetent (as well as underfunded by the government). There's much, much more to be gained by having them as a major scapegoat.


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