RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up.

RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (Full Version)

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leonine -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 6:06:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt You assume I think there are easy answers to this complex problem, there aren't. No, I think you think there are cheap answers, since you're proposing as if it were politically possible an investment of public funds that would make the New Deal look like petty cash. quote: Again, the only way to effect real change is to alter how people think. I couldn't agree more, but one of the biggest changes necessary is to stop thinking of the unemployed as scroungers and parasites. As long as that attitude persists, any effective program will be howled down as featherbedding the scroungers - as your proposed training would. But governments like that attitude because it allows them to wash their hands of the problem; it's not their fault, it's those parasites that don't want to work.

Aneirin -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 6:10:36 AM)
For people to be concerned about what others are getting and what they are not entitled to is symptomatic of a society that isn't working for if we were all happy in our lives we wouldn't care about others, but we are obviously not happy and so one has to look at why that is and could that why be the system you are so blindly supporting in your obedience ? Capitalism is clearly working very well for some, a minority perhaps but definitely not the great majority who spend their time grumbling about poorer people than themselves.

leonine -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 6:12:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Should I have reported the dope dealing? Why? I believe pot should be legal. It's so very easy to say you should report all crimes. You're dodging the question, and you know it. You claimed to have seen a great many people cheating on welfare. That is a crime, and you disaprove of it, but you didn't report it? Either your disapproval isn't anything like as strong as you suggest, or the people you describe had a perfectly legal right to what they were getting and there was nothing to report.

jlf1961 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 6:12:19 AM)
How about we take the money from the rich and give it to the poor... that wont work there are more rich people than poor people.

tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 6:12:41 AM)
agreed

meatcleaver -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 6:16:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Capitalism is clearly working very well for some, a minority perhaps but definitely not the great majority who spend their time grumbling about poorer people than themselves. Capitalism is not supposed to work for the majority, there will always be the exploited majority. Often in post war western society, the exploited majority are poor foreigners but now the capitalist rooster is coming home to roost.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 6:16:59 AM)
Thank you for confirming that welfare fraud does exist. I am finding your replies quite humorous. Your extreme (a traffic offense) and my extreme (a welfare offense) are obviously different. If you need to feel that makes you better than me, go for it. I mentioned he was dealing pot b/c it spoke about the couple's income. And no, I don't know that her obesity had anything to do with her health issues. I made an assumption, it's what people do. But please continue to twist what I've said into the most inflammatory terms you can -- it tells me a lot about you and your inability to accept any opinion other than your own. Your contention that helping people and seeing welfare fraud is counter to one another is yet another boondoggle. What are you personally doing to help the disadvantaged in your neighborhood?

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 6:21:07 AM)
I didn't dodge the question, I responded to it. I have a decided 'eastern' style of thinking and responding to the world around me -- which means I understand the world as it is right now is exactly where it is supposed to be. I never said that my neighbors bothered me, I did say they defrauded the system. But keep making this thread about me, as opposed to the issue. It really does help your argument.

tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 6:29:03 AM)
quote: Thank you for confirming that welfare fraud does exist. I never said it didnt exist. quote: I am finding your replies quite humorous. Your extreme (a traffic offense) and my extreme (a welfare offense) are obviously different. If you need to feel that makes you better than me, go for it. Not better..... quote: I mentioned he was dealing pot b/c it spoke about the couple's income. And no, I don't know that her obesity had anything to do with her health issues. I made an assumption, it's what people do. But please continue to twist what I've said into the most inflammatory terms you can -- it tells me a lot about you and your inability to accept any opinion other than your own. Many people make those assumptions about the poor. EBT cards arent just given to lazy poor people. Yet that is the assumption everytime someone sees a person with an EBT card. quote: Your contention that helping people and seeing welfare fraud is counter to one another is yet another boondoggle. No, my contention is bitching about the "fraud" you spoke about yet claiming you arent the "fraud police" on a message board is hypocritical. quote: What are you personally doing to help the disadvantaged in your neighborhood? When I am physically able, I donate time at the food banks. I took about 40 RN's through the welfare system, into college, and off welfare. I also worked closely with both the college at that time and the welfare system to educate future women about their rights in regards to education and the system. Here is what I see. We have a system that is broken.. terribly. If you glance around these boards, the mention of loop holes comes up a lot. And its ok for people to use those loopholes... as long as its not an illegal loophole. Which I find sorta funny because many who use those loopholes are the rich and they backdoor or make their own. I also see a system that does its hardest to keep people either way up... or way down. "Lets cut pell grants". Well, thats keeping poor people way down. "Lets get rid of the welfare fraud". Why do we even have welfare fraud? There was a comment out of LA County that as much as 24% of the cases there were fraudulent. Something that was quickly debunked. But that number stuck with many people. Its easier to point fingers at the poor in order to do what someone wants behind close doors. We, as a society, are so worried about that new car someone bought, who also pulled out an EBT card, than we are about the guys who bankrupted a business, yet paid themselves a bonus. The guy, in your scenario, may have gotten the money to buy that car through illegal means, but he didnt steal it from anyone. To bad I cannot say the same for the business.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 6:55:20 AM)
I very much agree that the welfare system is broken. And it's not the only one. Medicare/Medicaid and social security are just as broken. Please don't let me get started on our public education system - I don't have the time (I do have other things to do today and it's a pet peeve of mine). But I have come to a point in my life where I realize the only beneficial thing for me to do is to help individual where I can. That means giving my time and my talents to those in need. Helping in this way means I get a chance to alter their thinking. And it is changing how people think that will improve this issue, not reporting, or putting blinders on and pretending the problem doesn't exist. BTW: I can't help but point out that NY appears to have many places to report fraud. Evidently that state seems to think they have a lot of it, no?

tazzygirl -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 6:58:12 AM)
No clue what NY thinks... or doesnt think. It could be they got tired of the griping and put up the humbers as a way to tell people who constantly complain... call or stfu. Or they could have more fraud than the others. No way of telling which is true.

farglebargle -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 7:16:14 AM)
You can find similar resources for EVERY STATE simply by hitting up google. The point is, "Welfare Fraud exists, but those who complain nothing is ever done are full of shit". There are MANY active training and enforcement programs. Statewide, and if you actually read what I posted, nationally. That said. ANY system will have those who game it for profit. Period. The point is to minimize the loss and risk. And exactly what's wrong with Social Security, other than the contribution cap? Remove the cap to contributions, making everyone pay their fair share, and there are literally NO financial issues with Social Security, so you're going to have to very clearly walk everyone through your thoughts here.

Aneirin -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 7:21:44 AM)
I just wonder of all these that spout disgust at the benefit scrounger, have they ever experienced a benefit scrounger's existence? Have they ever existed with the knowledge everyone hates you because you are a scrounger, do they know what it is like to feel the disgust of so many in your own country, you know the place you were born, where your ancestors are buried ? And have they ever been threatened or assaulted on the streets because of the fact you are a benefit scrounger ? And then there is the food issue, do you know what kind of food benefits buys, yes the fat and sugar laden mechanically recovered unhealthy stuff as it is often the cheapest where most scroungers just go for what is most filling to stave off the hunger pangs or they train themselves to eat as little as possible and keep activity to a minimum, but their health suffers, but the will to survive forces desperate actions. Then there is the job situation, well, my country has flushed it's industry down the toilet in pursuit of a service industry which has been mostly farmed out overseas leaving us with what exactly? Then there is the population we have were no one considered what flushing our industry down the toilet actually means in the long term if we don't check our population. Then there is the minimum wage which is not a living wage and minimum wage leads to the poverty trap, which is death and so many know it, so it is safer on ever dwindling benefits than go there. And finally my situation where I want off the benefits and I want to be working and that through starting my own business as an artist metalsmith/plant mechanic/ jewellery maker, but how does one start a business without funding, for no one will lend to a benefit scrounger as they are not lending to already established small business. And why I was off work for five years, because of a nervous breakdown after 19 years full employment and no days of sick in that time to include six years in the service of my country in the armed forces. But in the last five years I have been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and Klinefelter's Syndrome. The depression was never adequately tackled and now they have a clue at last for I am being tested for Lupus. But I want to be working, the benefits lifestyle is slow death.

RacerJim -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 8:16:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: ElChupa We have a dependency culture. Keep feeding a bum... or a dog.. and it will come back to you. The "feeders" and do note NOT with their own money.. is the democrat party. How can you be obama-claus? He has presents for all of his cronies. You want research? Look at Europe. LOOK AT GREECE. We are headed to be Greece. Pure and simple. Enjoy the ride. It's easy. How many BILLIONS were spent on the "war on poverty?" Remember that? We have about the same poverty rate as before. There is your research. As a side note, I never understood how democrats could be considered compassionate and giving when they GIVE with other peoples money? And their so called compassion leads to dependency and suffering? Well, we do have a pretty stupid electorate, that's for sure. Enjoy your obamaphones, muchachos. You know what I find strange, the large number of REPUBLICANS that depend on Social Security and the WEALTHY that depend on tax breaks. You know what I find hypocritical? 1) Warren Buffet, one of the, if not THE, most vocal UBER WEALTHY DEMOCRAT supporters of Obama's tax-increase on the UBER WEALTHY, owes close to $1 BILLION in taxes going back to 2002. Actually his investment firm Birkshire Hathaway owes the taxes but, hey, if Democrats can rake Romney over the coals regarding his FORMER investment firm Bain Capital, surely Republicans can rake Buffet over the coals regarding his CURRENT investment firm. 2) Timothy Geithner, Obama's Secretary of Treasury and staunch advocate of Obama's tax-increase on the UBER WEALTHY, owed $26 THOUSAND in unpaid Social Security taxes for his ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT housekeeper dating back to 2004. 3) A January 2012 report from the Internal Revenue Service revealed that 36 of President Obama's executive office staff owe the country $833,970 in back taxes. These people working for Mr. Fair Share apparently haven't paid any share, let alone their fair share.

JeffBC -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 8:24:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RacerJim You know what I find hypocritical? Me too. But you know what? It ought to be obvious to everyone that pretty much every single individual in DC would not make the cut as our friends. I dunno but I hear a lot of talk about "honor" on these forums and it's blatantly clear that none of them have any. But how do you see saying, "Yeah, my team does some shitty things but that's OK because your team does too." as actually helping anything? How about we hold players on both sides accountable for their shit?

whipher1 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 9:25:34 AM)
Some of you need to watch the Morey show for a week then you will be saying WTF with welfare

tj444 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 9:38:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: whipher1 Some of you need to watch the Morey show for a week then you will be saying WTF with welfare I always wondered what kinda people watched shows like that.. [8\|] As far as your suggestion that I watch it goes, I choose not to do things that risk rotting my brain.. but dont let my opinion(s) stop you from indulging yerself...

Hillwilliam -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 9:49:05 AM)
Does he mean Maury? If not, what is the Morey show?

tj444 -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 10:00:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam Does he mean Maury? If not, what is the Morey show? yes, my guess is that he means Maury.. thus proving that watching the show rots the brain.. [:D]

thezeppo -> RE: Welfare benefit scroungers - the evidence just doesn't add up. (12/3/2012 11:24:02 AM)
If benefits scroungers are the problem, then the inference is that full employment would solve the problem. Ask the 1970's what happens when there is full employment. There is simply no empirical evidence that shows a culture of scrounging - only individual examples. The mere fact that the percentage of the workforce claiming JSA in the UK has nigh on doubled since the original crisis in 2008 should suggest that the majority of people on JSA don't want to be there, as they weren't there before the crisis. What of regional variations? There is a higher rate of unemployment in the North than in the South, does this suggest that people in the North are more likely to be scroungers? There is a crisis threatening to engulf us, and we are looking in the wrong places and blaming the wrong people. If you want to find the root cause of a situation then follow the money. It certainly doesn't flow to the bottom. In the words of Plan B, 'There's no such thing as Broken Britain, we're just bloody broke in Britain'

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