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Church and State - 12/5/2012 4:25:50 PM   
Kirata


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Lawsuit threat cancels Christmas concert



HONOLULU - A threatened lawsuit had put a halt to what's become a Christmas tradition for members of the Moanalua High School orchestra.

For the past six years, the award-winning group and volunteers from the New Hope Church have raised more than $200,000 for a charity that treats poor people in Africa. But that all came to a halt on Monday...

In a letter to the Department of Education, Mitch Kahle, founder of the Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, took issue with the involvement of New Hope Church, which handles ticket sales and sells those tickets at its services.

"The issue here is an entanglement between a public school and a Christian church," said Kahle. "And one of the things about the constitution is that it prohibits the involvement of public schools and churches."

What do you think? Do you see something like this as a violation of the Constitution?

K.
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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 4:27:00 PM   
Baroana


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Status: offline 		Need more facts.

I want to read the letter.

Something also doesn't pass the smell test here. The mere threat of a lawsuit causes the cancellation of this event?

< Message edited by Baroana -- 12/5/2012 4:29:33 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 4:53:05 PM   
Yachtie


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Perhaps the Hawaiian Department of Natural Resources should institute a hunting season on Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church members with a very liberal bag limit.

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 4:57:29 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

What do you think? Do you see something like this as a violation of the Constitution?

K.


Depends. Are they forced to perform? Is it linked to their education? Or can a student opt out without any repercussions.

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 6:00:17 PM   
DomKen


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The actual concern is that the public school orchestra is being used to make money for the church. Why not hold the event without involving the church at all? Why did the church need to sell the tickets? Was this simply a way to fill the church's coffers?

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 6:02:41 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

The mere threat of a lawsuit causes the cancellation of this event?



It's not uncommon. Lawsuits, even stupid frivolous ones, can be extremely expensive to defend against.

For the question itself, no, I don't see a partnership between a church and a school for a special event as being an automatic violation of the separation of church and state doctrine. If it is, then a fuckload of touchy-feely, "tolerance" events and assemblies that are conducted during school hours ought to be banned first.

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 6:06:09 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Why does the public school need to be involved? Why cannot the band members, whom I believe own their own instruments, play at the church or other venue to raise money?

Butch

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 6:26:21 PM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		Well, I think the public school is involved specifically because it's a HIGH SCHOOL ORCHESTRA.

No one is saying that the Church can't form and promote their own orchestra, or that the school can't do this on their own.

But the church getting a free ride from the taxpayers. Fuck them.

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 6:39:32 PM   
lovmuffin


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The money raised is for a charity.

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 6:43:35 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The actual concern is that the public school orchestra is being used to make money for the church.


There's no indication that anyone is "being used," the money isn't "for the church," and the "actual concern" being alleged is that it's unconstitutional.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/5/2012 6:51:47 PM >

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 6:47:56 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Why does the public school need to be involved? Why cannot the band members, whom I believe own their own instruments, play at the church or other venue to raise money?
Butch


I would imagine they do quite bit of practicing for this, including during school hours. While I don't see that as going against the Constitution, it would seem that the band's director, a school teacher, would be required to be there. If the school wasn't involved, they would not be allowed to practice during school hours (which is an assumption I'm making).

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 7:05:21 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

I would imagine they do quite bit of practicing for this, including during school hours


There is no reason they could not practice after school is there? The bandleader could donate his time for charity. The school is not required for any of this. I am not against charity in any form...or Christian Christmas music...just lets do it in the appropriate place.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 7:09:32 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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Something tells me ol Mitch Kahle would not be doing this if it was Mosque sponsored

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 8:17:10 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

FR...

Something tells me ol Mitch Kahle would not be doing this if it was Mosque sponsored

You're full of shit.

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 8:20:30 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The actual concern is that the public school orchestra is being used to make money for the church.


There's no indication that anyone is "being used," the money isn't "for the church," and the "actual concern" being alleged is that it's unconstitutional.

The church sells the tickets. Do they take "expenses" before sending the donation? The church sells concessions and other material at the performance. Do they deduct their "expenses" before donating those monies? Is the church's name included on programs and advertisemnts? Do they reimburse the school for that advertising?

You uncritically claim the church isn't making money off this. The smart money is on the church making money from this.

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 8:25:39 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Why does the public school need to be involved? Why cannot the band members, whom I believe own their own instruments, play at the church or other venue to raise money?
Butch


I would imagine they do quite bit of practicing for this, including during school hours. While I don't see that as going against the Constitution, it would seem that the band's director, a school teacher, would be required to be there. If the school wasn't involved, they would not be allowed to practice during school hours (which is an assumption I'm making).


I cant imagine the practice is any different than any other practice they may do. Its music. No lyrics....

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 8:48:12 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The smart money is on the church making money from this.

In other words, you don't really have fuck all to go on. I'd love to play poker with you, but let's not digress. In what way does this charity concert constitute an unconstitutional establishment of religion by the state? Even if the church does offset some expenses, which isn't the same as "making money" by the way, what does that have to do with it?

K.

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 8:53:14 PM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		It is really too bad that the New Hope Church is involved with the band of a public high school because the charity recipient Mercy Ships certainly looks worthy and is now a stand alone organization:
Mercy Ships is a Better Business Bureau accredited charity.[40] Originally a part of the YWAM (Youth with a Mission) family of Christian ministries, Mercy Ships is now a standalone organization.[41] Mercy Ships has built a broad base of financial support, beginning with donations from the public and from crew members. Medical companies donate pharmaceuticals, equipment and supplies to Mercy Ships. Corporations also make in-kind donations of materials such as fuel, food and building supplies. In addition, governments that work with Mercy Ships also waive port fees and associated costs for the ship to dock.[42]

Here is a link to a promo for the concert and the orchestra . . . . really an excellent performing group apparently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jw-mRTeN6E

I am not sure of the case law but the cancellation came on the eve of the concert. There might be some exception if the concert were held in an off school venue, but I have not researched it. I do believe religious student groups are allowed to meet on school grounds if self-organized. Maybe the school authorities and the Church/State Seperation folks can find a way to work this out within the Law. Rueful as I feel this is I can't really blame the Church/State Seperation Group for pursuing the legal principal.

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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 9:03:05 PM   
erieangel


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Status: offline 		I'm all for separating church and state. I do not want my children to be taught religious doctrine in school, if I did, I would have sent them to a religious school.

That said, this doesn't meet that standard, as far as I'm concerned. Public schools often have "sponsors" for events and it sounds like this church was a sponsor of this concert. That one man could cause these kids to have all their hard work flushed down the toilet in preparing for this concert is insane.

I wonder if the claimant would have filed a similar complaint if it had been a sporting event, sponsored by a church to raise money for charity...


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RE: Church and State - 12/5/2012 9:07:33 PM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		Here is a news article from 2009 that explores why religious music can be banned from public schools.
I don't know if there has been more recent Law.
Christmas Carols: Banned on Public School Campuses

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/5/2012 9:09:24 PM >

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