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RE: Church and State - 12/8/2012 6:52:46 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

As I said in another thread, I am being the devil's advocate here.

It's worth doing. It seems to me that the clear intention of the First Amendment was to disallow Congress from enacting any law that directly or indirectly favored one religion over another or religion over non-religion. How we got from there to some of today's case law is beyond me.

K.



Exactly right. That is the intention of the First Amendment. But public school districts historically violated the First Amendment by mandating daily Bible recitation. So, the religious brought it upon themselves.

The Court abolished school prayer in Engel v. Vitale (1962) of which you are undoubtedly aware.

The Court explained the importance of separation between church and state by giving a lengthy history of the issue, beginning with the 16th century in England. It then stated that school's prayer is a religious activity by the very nature of it being a prayer, and that prescribing such a religious activity for school children violates the Establishment Clause. The program, created by government officials to promote a religious belief, was therefore constitutionally impermissible.

The Court rejected the defendant's arguments that people are not asked to respect any specific established religion; and that the prayer is voluntary. The Court held that the mere promotion of a religion is sufficient to establish a violation, even if that promotion is not coercive. The Court further held that the fact that the prayer is vaguely worded enough not to promote any particular religion is not a sufficient defense, as it still promotes a family of religions (those that recognize "Almighty God"), which still violates the Establishment Clause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_v._Vitale

The American Ethical Union, the American Jewish Committee, and the Synagogue Council of America each submitted briefs urging the Court to instead reverse and rule that the prayer was unconstitutional.



< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/8/2012 6:56:25 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Church and State - 12/8/2012 7:01:33 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Here is something interesting I found on a website that is decidedly moderate in its positions.

Thanks for posting that.

Theocracy is bad, but a "Secularcracy" is no different in kind. Freedom of conscience cannot survive in either.

K.

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Church and State - 12/8/2012 7:42:43 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I would be curious to know where or what caused you to "feel" that way.

DomKen, arguing about Mercy Ships, an avowedly Christian charity, said that he refuses to donate to religious charities because he objects to people "forcing religion on their patients" or "handing out bibles or korans" or whatever.

Well I would object to that too, of course. But absent any evidence that they are acutally doing either of those things, his objection comes down to nothing more than the fact that they are a religious charity, and it seems to follow that he would object to them receiving money from the government as well for the same reason.

But if the government shouldn't give money to persons or groups that are avowedly religious, then we need to get busy withholding the salaries of avowedly religious Congressmen, or rid ourselves of them altogether, for the same reason, namely, that we don't want them "forcing" their religion on the country, regardless of whether or not they actually do any such thing.

Just sayin, yanno.

K.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: Church and State - 12/8/2012 8:00:22 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

I think this might be a little telling about the Founding Fathers and the "separation of Church and State":

The Aitken Bible of 1782 was reviewed, approved and authorized by the US Congress.

1782 predates the US Congress and the US Constitution.

(in reply to searching4mysir)
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RE: Church and State - 12/8/2012 8:02:09 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

As I said in another thread, I am being the devil's advocate here.

It's worth doing. It seems to me that the clear intention of the First Amendment was to disallow Congress from enacting any law that directly or indirectly favored one religion over another or religion over non-religion. How we got from there to some of today's case law is beyond me.

The 14th amendment.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Church and State - 12/8/2012 8:07:36 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I would be curious to know where or what caused you to "feel" that way.

DomKen, arguing about Mercy Ships, an avowedly Christian charity, said that he refuses to donate to religious charities because he objects to people "forcing religion on their patients" or "handing out bibles or korans" or whatever.

Well I would object to that too, of course. But absent any evidence that they are acutally doing either of those things, his objection comes down to nothing more than the fact that they are a religious charity, and it seems to follow that he would object to them receiving money from the government as well for the same reason.

But if the government shouldn't give money to persons or groups that are avowedly religious, then we need to get busy withholding the salaries of avowedly religious Congressmen, or rid ourselves of them altogether, for the same reason, namely, that we don't want them "forcing" their religion on the country, regardless of whether or not they actually do any such thing.

Just sayin, yanno.

K.

You mean just pulling shit out of your ass.

I object to all entanglements of state and religion. Because that is the law of the land.

A Congressman gets paid to perform specific secular duties. As long as those are performed he/she should get paid. If a Congressman refused to attend sessions or cast votes for some religious reason then it would be appropriate to remove him from office for not doing the job he was elected to do.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Church and State - 12/8/2012 8:58:54 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A Congressman gets paid to perform specific secular duties. As long as those are performed he/she should get paid.

That argument goes both ways. Mercy Ships seeks donations to fund its delivery of medical services to people in need. As long as those services are what they in fact provide (and not something else) there should be no problem with them receiving money from any person or government with an interest in seeing that secular purpose fulfilled. In my view, to argue in favor of one but not the other is just anti-religious bigotry.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/8/2012 9:33:32 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Church and State - 12/8/2012 11:07:47 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		This topic brings to mind the "Moral Majority" of the eighties. They backed politicians with clear religious agendas.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Church and State - 12/8/2012 11:18:22 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		This is a shame. This is a High School that, in the past, has played Carnegie. No small honor.

Moanalua High School students in the award-winning orchestra have proudly raised $200,000 over the last 6 years through their annual holiday concert.

These students, who have performed at Carnegie Hall in New York three times, don’t keep the money to buy new instruments, travel abroad or help their school.

Instead, they send $30,000 they raise every year overseas to a well-known charity, Mercy Ships, which is current housing American doctors in Africa on a medical mission. These doctors help the poorest of residents – some who have never seen a doctor – with urgent medical and dental needs.
It is the students’ gift to the world during the holidays and their chance to make difference for others in need.

The seventh annual fundraiser was set for this weekend, and students have been practicing for months to ensure their performance was perfect.

But an atheist activist, who has shown up to protest city hall Christmas tree lighting ceremonies as well as city council hearings and legislative events where there is prayer, has turned up as their Christmas Grinch and put a stop to the kids’ best-laid plans just hours before the show.

Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Residents for Separation of Church and State, wrote a letter to the Department of Education on "Freedom from Religion Foundation" stationary on December 3 demanding state officials stop the concert. He claimed the public high school was in cahoots with New Hope, one of Hawaii’s largest Christian churches.

It’s true that some of the New Hope parishioners volunteered to sell tickets or work on the set. But the concert is run by school staff and features its students, and tickets are sold both on campus and by phone. One hundred percent of the proceeds go to Mercy Ships. Historically, Mercy Ships, which has been the beneficiary of the concert for 4 years, used the $30,000 from Moanalua's concert to get another $30,000 from matching donors.

“People are assuming this is a New Hope event when it is not. They cancelled a high school event,” said Chad Brownstein, a volunteer with the concert, graduate of the school and employee of New Hope.

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/christmas-grinch-atheist-gets-doe-to-halt-winter-charity-concert-just-hours-before-the-show/123

Sounds more like a bully and a DOE who just dont want to get pulled into a possible lawsuit... even though he rarely gets any legal action.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 1:31:27 AM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
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Most Christians I know are not conquistadors, crusaders, fundamentalist wackos, or theological lawyers. They just try to fulfill the commandment to love one another, and to live their lives in accord with the principle (if you'll excuse the paraphrase) that whatsoever ye do to another, ye do unto Me. I think it's time to coin the word "Christophobia" for flakes like this asshole. His website is an all but endless screed that stops at nothing to prove how evil Christians are, and how vile their beliefs. My favorite was:

Jesus Christ and his angels of death plan to destroy the Earth and kill all non-Christians

K.






< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/9/2012 1:42:07 AM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 1:37:43 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Yeah, he is a real jewel. Atheists should be extremely proud of him.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 1:41:01 AM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yeah, he is a real jewel. Atheists should be extremely proud of him.

Apparently some of them are.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation presented him with their "Freethinker of the Year" Award in 2011.

K.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 1:43:58 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A Congressman gets paid to perform specific secular duties. As long as those are performed he/she should get paid.

That argument goes both ways. Mercy Ships seeks donations to fund its delivery of medical services to people in need. As long as those services are what they in fact provide (and not something else) there should be no problem with them receiving money from any person or government with an interest in seeing that secular purpose fulfilled. In my view, to argue in favor of one but not the other is just anti-religious bigotry.

No. It is honoring the founding principles of this nation. Mercy Ships might be the rare sectarian organization that makes no mention of religion while delivering services but there is no guarantee that some change of staff could not occur which would change that policy. With Medecin sans Frontieres, which does the same work but better and in more than one place at a time, that is not a concern. So, since I believe that any time and money spent proseltyzing is wasted, I donate to MSF.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 1:44:16 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		He gets away with it because others just dont want to deal with his bullshit. What he did in the presence of children (from my link) would have gotten him beat when I was growing up.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 1:47:42 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Jesus Christ and his angels of death plan to destroy the Earth and kill all non-Christians

Hmmmm. What does that last book in the bible supposedly foretell? The destruction of the Earth and the slaughter of all non christians. Do many christian groups profess a desire to have this happen as soon as possible? Is it not possible to find explicit statements that environmental destruction and war in the ME are good for christians because it hurries the "end times?"

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 1:49:17 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yeah, he is a real jewel. Atheists should be extremely proud of him.

I am. It takes a lot of guts to stand up for principle in the face of the majority. I'm sure he is routinely threatened and harassed for simply demanding that government operate by the rules.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 1:56:04 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		It’s true that some of the New Hope parishioners volunteered to sell tickets or work on the set. But the concert is run by school staff and features its students, and tickets are sold both on campus and by phone. One hundred percent of the proceeds go to Mercy Ships. Historically, Mercy Ships, which has been the beneficiary of the concert for 4 years, used the $30,000 from Moanalua's concert to get another $30,000 from matching donors.


Where is the blurring of the separation here? Because of volunteers?

Does that mean that no church member can volunteer to help out any secular event ever?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 2:03:43 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I am. It takes a lot of guts to stand up for principle in the face of the majority.

Ohferchrissake, give it a fucking break.

It doesn't take a psych eval to see that he all he's doing here is wrapping his Christophobia in the flag.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 2:05:28 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

It’s true that some of the New Hope parishioners volunteered to sell tickets or work on the set. But the concert is run by school staff and features its students, and tickets are sold both on campus and by phone. One hundred percent of the proceeds go to Mercy Ships. Historically, Mercy Ships, which has been the beneficiary of the concert for 4 years, used the $30,000 from Moanalua's concert to get another $30,000 from matching donors.


Where is the blurring of the separation here? Because of volunteers?

Does that mean that no church member can volunteer to help out any secular event ever?

It means that an event that comingles the government, public school teachers, and church, church singers and others, for the purpose of raising money for a religious charity is not allowed.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Church and State - 12/9/2012 2:08:22 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I am. It takes a lot of guts to stand up for principle in the face of the majority.

Ohferchrissake, give it a fucking break.

It doesn't take a psych eval to see that he all he's doing here is wrapping his Christophobia in the flag.

K.

I'm sure the same was said about Madeline Murray O'Hair when she brought the case against mandatory bible reading in public schools.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 100
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