RE: Church and State

RE: Church and State (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Church and State (12/5/2012 9:09:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I can't really blame the Church/State Seperation Group for pursuing the legal principal. Me either if there is one, but I don't see it. So I'll ask you what I asked Ken: In what way does this charity concert constitute an unconstitutional establishment of religion by the state? K.

vincentML -> RE: Church and State (12/5/2012 9:16:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I can't really blame the Church/State Seperation Group for pursuing the legal principal. Me either if there is one, but I don't see it. So I'll ask you what I asked Ken: In what way does this charity concert constitute an unconstitutional establishment of religion by the state? K. See the article I posted above. There is Law on this issue.

Kirata -> RE: Church and State (12/5/2012 9:42:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML See the article I posted above. There is Law on this issue. Ah, sorry, thanks. I missed that post. So it was the religious content of the music, at least in that instance. Well I can see the point, but somehow it doesn't seem to me to rise to the level of an unconstitutional establishment of religion. At least, not unless the school's policies disallowed, say, partnering with a Synagogue to hold a Hanukkah charity concert. Then I'd have a very BIG problem with it. K.

vincentML -> RE: Church and State (12/5/2012 9:57:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML See the article I posted above. There is Law on this issue. Ah, sorry, thanks. I missed that post. So it was the religious content of the music, at least in that instance. Well I can see the point, but somehow it doesn't seem to me to rise to the level of an unconstitutional establishment of religion. At least, not unless the school's policies disallowed, say, partnering with a Synagogue to hold a Hanukkah charity concert. Then I'd have a very BIG problem with it. K. I think I understand you are saying that it should pass the test of constituionality if the School does not discriminate between religions, including one and excluding another. The sense I get from reading this one article is that the Court rejects that notion while maintaining that 'secular' is not hostile to religion, so secular is the preferred default mode. The only exemption I have ever heard of is if the music were presented as a culteral event including other music in addition to Christian. That's why I suggested there is possibly a way around this. Maybe next year. The orchestra sure sounds great, doesn't it? Gnite [:)]

lovmuffin -> RE: Church and State (12/5/2012 9:57:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Here is a news article from 2009 that explores why religious music can be banned from public schools. I don't know if there has been more recent Law. Christmas Carols: Banned on Public School Campuses What a load of liberal lunacy. The establishment clause is there to. Forbid the government from establishing a religion. Libs have taken it all to a new level unintended by the founders. We sang all kinds of religious songs in our high school and concert choir. This is not the country of my youth.

Jonc101 -> RE: Church and State (12/5/2012 10:02:02 PM)
I'm the world's greatest atheist and despiser of all religions, some more than others. However, I love the sound of hymns and Xmas carols coming out of the local churches. It's part of our wider culture, and whomever tries to stifle that, stifles freedom of speech and religion. FJ

tazzygirl -> RE: Church and State (12/5/2012 10:04:02 PM)
quote: What a load of liberal lunacy. The establishment clause is there to. Forbid the government from establishing a religion. Libs have taken it all to a new level unintended by the founders. We sang all kinds of religious songs in our high school and concert choir. This is not the country of my youth. Thats only because, at the time, no one complained about it. Now, they are. Those complaining are citizens. They have the right to be heard.

DomKen -> RE: Church and State (12/5/2012 11:07:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The smart money is on the church making money from this. In other words, you don't really have fuck all to go on. I'd love to play poker with you, but let's not digress. In what way does this charity concert constitute an unconstitutional establishment of religion by the state? Even if the church does offset some expenses, which isn't the same as "making money" by the way, what does that have to do with it? K. The state is spending money to benefit a single church. That is establishment by SCOTUS precedent.

Kirata -> RE: Church and State (12/5/2012 11:18:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The state is spending money to benefit a single church. That is establishment by SCOTUS precedent. How many times to you have to be told that the concert benefits a charity, not a church? K.

lovmuffin -> RE: Church and State (12/6/2012 12:23:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: What a load of liberal lunacy. The establishment clause is there to. Forbid the government from establishing a religion. Libs have taken it all to a new level unintended by the founders. We sang all kinds of religious songs in our high school and concert choir. This is not the country of my youth. Thats only because, at the time, no one complained about it. Now, they are. Those complaining are citizens. They have the right to be heard. Yes complaints complaints, the PC crowd has taken us to an unprecedented level of sheer lunacy. This was not the intention of the establishment clause.

thishereboi -> RE: Church and State (12/6/2012 3:09:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata What do you think? Do you see something like this as a violation of the Constitution? K. No, I think its just sad.

thishereboi -> RE: Church and State (12/6/2012 3:13:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR The actual concern is that the public school orchestra is being used to make money for the church. Why not hold the event without involving the church at all? Why did the church need to sell the tickets? Was this simply a way to fill the church's coffers? It isn't money for the church... "For the past six years, the award-winning group and volunteers from the New Hope Church have raised more than $200,000 for a charity that treats poor people in Africa." Now I always thought the libs were for helping the poor. I guess they just get their panties in a wad if a church is involved. Then it's screw the poor.

thishereboi -> RE: Church and State (12/6/2012 3:16:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: I would imagine they do quite bit of practicing for this, including during school hours There is no reason they could not practice after school is there? The bandleader could donate his time for charity. The school is not required for any of this. I am not against charity in any form...or Christian Christmas music...just lets do it in the appropriate place. Butch well of course. After all how silly is it to have a school band practice playing music during school.

Kirata -> RE: Church and State (12/6/2012 4:25:36 AM)
~ FR ~ Now it's Charlie Brown A church caught at the center of a controversy regarding a school trip to see their production of “Merry Christmas Charlie Brown” has decided to cancel the show... The trouble reportedly stemmed from an invitation to first and second grade students at Terry Elementary School to see the Christmas production. “Merry Christmas Charlie Brown” is the stage adaptation of the classic 1965 Peanuts cartoon, “A Charlie Brown Christmas.” A parent who felt the trip was inappropriate reached out to the ASF to voice her concern with the show’s religious connotations, which reportedly differed from her own, the station learned. From there, a campaign was launched to cancel the class trip. K.

Kirata -> RE: Church and State (12/6/2012 4:28:57 AM)
Personally, I think it would be beneficial if schools were required to teach a survey course in religion, covering (with no favoritism) at least the major faiths that children encounter in our society and the Atheist position as well. I think it would serve to innoculate the kids to some degree against religion-motivated hatreds and over-zealous indoctrination of the "one true way" variety. On the other hand, in a country that can't tell the difference between "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown" and Midnight Mass, I probably shouldn't hold my breath. K.

vincentML -> RE: Church and State (12/6/2012 5:20:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Personally, I think it would be beneficial if schools were required to teach a survey course in religion, covering (with no favoritism) at least the major faiths that children encounter in our society and the Atheist position as well. I think it would serve to innoculate the kids to some degree against religion-motivated hatreds and over-zealous indoctrination of the "one true way" variety. On the other hand, in a country that can't tell the difference between "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown" and Midnight Mass, I probably shouldn't hold my breath. K. I believe the Courts have held that such a survey course would fit well into a History curriculum because it reflects our heritage or culture. Interpretation of the Seperation doctrine does allow for cultural events. That is why there is a Christmas tree on the White House lawn and an easter egg roll event each year. The banned concert could probably proceed with some secular seasonal music added such as "Jingle Bells" and "Let it Snow" and some tunes representing other religions . . . I am guessing. I totally agree with you about the course on world religions.

thishereboi -> RE: Church and State (12/6/2012 5:27:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata ~ FR ~ Now it's Charlie Brown A church caught at the center of a controversy regarding a school trip to see their production of “Merry Christmas Charlie Brown” has decided to cancel the show... The trouble reportedly stemmed from an invitation to first and second grade students at Terry Elementary School to see the Christmas production. “Merry Christmas Charlie Brown” is the stage adaptation of the classic 1965 Peanuts cartoon, “A Charlie Brown Christmas.” A parent who felt the trip was inappropriate reached out to the ASF to voice her concern with the show’s religious connotations, which reportedly differed from her own, the station learned. From there, a campaign was launched to cancel the class trip. K. I guess it never dawned on her to just have her kid stay home. I seriously doubt the trip was mandatory.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Church and State (12/6/2012 5:35:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Why does the public school need to be involved? Why cannot the band members, whom I believe own their own instruments, play at the church or other venue to raise money? Butch I would imagine they do quite bit of practicing for this, including during school hours. While I don't see that as going against the Constitution, it would seem that the band's director, a school teacher, would be required to be there. If the school wasn't involved, they would not be allowed to practice during school hours (which is an assumption I'm making). I cant imagine the practice is any different than any other practice they may do. Its music. No lyrics.... It has never been a custom of my schooling to practice music simply for the sake of practicing it. There has always been an end in mind, be it a halftime show, a musical, a competition, or another performance (we didn't practice much at all for basketball pep band). I accept that was my school, and may be different from other schools, but that is my experience.

Kirata -> RE: Church and State (12/6/2012 5:37:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I totally agree with you about the course on world religions. Given our history of butting heads, I find it kinda nice that we can actually agree on something. Thanks for saying so. K.

vincentML -> RE: Church and State (12/6/2012 5:42:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I totally agree with you about the course on world religions. Given our history of butting heads, I find it kinda nice that we can actually agree on something. Thanks for saying so. K. [:)] Yup, I agree with that too. YW!

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