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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: kdsub
Why does the public school need to be involved? Why cannot the band members, whom I believe own their own instruments, play at the church or other venue to raise money?
Butch

I would imagine they do quite bit of practicing for this, including during school hours. While I don't see that as going against the Constitution, it would seem that the band's director, a school teacher, would be required to be there. If the school wasn't involved, they would not be allowed to practice during school hours (which is an assumption I'm making).

I cant imagine the practice is any different than any other practice they may do. Its music. No lyrics....

It has never been a custom of my schooling to practice music simply for the sake of practicing it. There has always been an end in mind, be it a halftime show, a musical, a competition, or another performance (we didn't practice much at all for basketball pep band). I accept that was my school, and may be different from other schools, but that is my experience.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

The state is spending money to benefit a single church. That is establishment by SCOTUS precedent.

How many times to you have to be told that the concert benefits a charity, not a church?

K.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata


Lawsuit threat cancels Christmas concert

[image]http://khnl.images.worldnow.com/images/20262865_BG1.jpg[/image]

HONOLULU - A threatened lawsuit had put a halt to what's become a Christmas tradition for members of the Moanalua High School orchestra.

For the past six years, the award-winning group and volunteers from the New Hope Church have raised more than $200,000 for a charity that treats poor people in Africa. But that all came to a halt on Monday...

In a letter to the Department of Education, Mitch Kahle, founder of the Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, took issue with the involvement of New Hope Church, which handles ticket sales and sells those tickets at its services.

"The issue here is an entanglement between a public school and a Christian church," said Kahle. "And one of the things about the constitution is that it prohibits the involvement of public schools and churches."

What do you think? Do you see something like this as a violation of the Constitution?

K.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

So you walked into it.

Mercy Ships is an unabashedly christian charity. Using government facilities and employees to raise money for a religious organization is clearly anestablishment issue, fails 2 prongs of the Lemon test.

The promo video for the concert includes the statement that "there will be no mid week service that night" at the 35 second mark so it is obvious this promo is aimed at members of the sponsoring church.

So the closest thing to an official website for the concert is the New Hope Church's page about the event. There it claims that only ticket sales and donations go 100% to the christian chiarity. What about other sales? Concessions etc.? Likely fails all 3 prongs of Lemon.

Just to stave off more whinging the 3 prongs of the Lemon test
The government's action must have a secular purpose
The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion
The government's action must not result in an excessive government entanglement in religion.

This concert obviously fails 1 and 3 and likely fails 2 as well (depends on whether the program included specifically christian music or not.).

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

So you walked into it.

Mercy Ships is an unabashedly christian charity. Using government facilities and employees to raise money for a religious organization is clearly anestablishment issue, fails 2 prongs of the Lemon test.

The promo video for the concert includes the statement that "there will be no mid week service that night" at the 35 second mark so it is obvious this promo is aimed at members of the sponsoring church.

So the closest thing to an official website for the concert is the New Hope Church's page about the event. There it claims that only ticket sales and donations go 100% to the christian chiarity. What about other sales? Concessions etc.? Likely fails all 3 prongs of Lemon.

Just to stave off more whinging the 3 prongs of the Lemon test
The government's action must have a secular purpose
The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion
The government's action must not result in an excessive government entanglement in religion.

This concert obviously fails 1 and 3 and likely fails 2 as well (depends on whether the program included specifically christian music or not.).

OMG, imagine teaching kids to think of others and try to raise money for a christian orginazation. What the fuck were they thinking? Screw the poor people. They don't need the money if a church is involved. Much better to let them go hungry.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

So you walked into it.

Mercy Ships is an unabashedly christian charity. Using government facilities and employees to raise money for a religious organization is clearly anestablishment issue, fails 2 prongs of the Lemon test.

The promo video for the concert includes the statement that "there will be no mid week service that night" at the 35 second mark so it is obvious this promo is aimed at members of the sponsoring church.

So the closest thing to an official website for the concert is the New Hope Church's page about the event. There it claims that only ticket sales and donations go 100% to the christian chiarity. What about other sales? Concessions etc.? Likely fails all 3 prongs of Lemon.

Just to stave off more whinging the 3 prongs of the Lemon test
The government's action must have a secular purpose
The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion
The government's action must not result in an excessive government entanglement in religion.

This concert obviously fails 1 and 3 and likely fails 2 as well (depends on whether the program included specifically christian music or not.).

OMG, imagine teaching kids to think of others and try to raise money for a christian orginazation. What the fuck were they thinking? Screw the poor people. They don't need the money if a church is involved. Much better to let them go hungry.

Much better to keep churches and the government seperate. If the church wants to support Mercy Ships let them organize a band and use a church facility. If the school orchestras want to support a charity let them find a nonsectarian one.

Or we could abrogate the very first protection enshrined in the Bill of Rights.

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It has never been a custom of my schooling to practice music simply for the sake of practicing it. There has always been an end in mind, be it a halftime show, a musical, a competition, or another performance (we didn't practice much at all for basketball pep band). I accept that was my school, and may be different from other schools, but that is my experience.

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Bullshit. You don't give a damn about the poor they were going to help. All you care about it a chance to score one against religion. I'll keep this in mind the next time you rant about how the right doesn't care about people. As for letting the charitly find a nonsectarian one. Not a lot of those around. You remind me of the girl who said she only gives money to the groups that don't have anything to do with religion, then when I asked which ones they were couldn't name one.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen
I don't give a damn about poor people receiving medical care? My annual donation the Doctors without Borders would seem to be at odds with your outrageous lie.

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ORIGINAL: Yachtie

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ORIGINAL: DomKen
I don't give a damn about poor people receiving medical care? My annual donation the Doctors without Borders would seem to be at odds with your outrageous lie.

Good for you. Would it displease you if some of those doctors were saving lives of religious people? (thus allowing them to continue spewing their vile religious beliefs you so hate?) Be honest now. For if DWB does good works regardless, how can you discriminate as you do here without being hypocritical? Does Mercy Ships require a religious test prior to care? Your church/state thing, at least in this instance, is a smokescreen.

Thishereboi is right, it's more about "a chance to score one against religion" than your self professed do-goodieness.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Bullshit. You don't give a damn about the poor they were going to help. All you care about it a chance to score one against religion. I'll keep this in mind the next time you rant about how the right doesn't care about people. As for letting the charitly find a nonsectarian one. Not a lot of those around. You remind me of the girl who said she only gives money to the groups that don't have anything to do with religion, then when I asked which ones they were couldn't name one.

I don't give a damn about poor people receiving medical care? My annual donation the Doctors without Borders would seem to be at odds with your outrageous lie.

your annual donations have nothing to do with it. It is your words on here that speak volumes.

Nonsectarian charities are plentiful, I only donate to such. Beyond Docs without borders there is also Kiva which facilitates microlaons that let poor people lift themselves out of poverty, Shelter Box provides disaster relief quickly and efficiently, Rotary International is funding polio eradication efforts, The ICRC and affiliates continue to do their good works, Child's Play provides toys and games to children's hospitals and there are many hundreds more.

Where you donate money is no one elses business. If you don't like where the money is going to go, then don't buy a ticket. Obviously there are a lot of people who are fine with this or they would not have raised so much money.

Are you done making shit up about people you know nothing?
I am responding to your posts, if you don't want to come off as uncaring, maybe you should rethink the crap you write.

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Bullshit. You don't give a damn about the poor they were going to help. All you care about it a chance to score one against religion. I'll keep this in mind the next time you rant about how the right doesn't care about people. As for letting the charitly find a nonsectarian one. Not a lot of those around. You remind me of the girl who said she only gives money to the groups that don't have anything to do with religion, then when I asked which ones they were couldn't name one.

I don't give a damn about poor people receiving medical care? My annual donation the Doctors without Borders would seem to be at odds with your outrageous lie.

your annual donations have nothing to do with it. It is your words on here that speak volumes.

Nonsectarian charities are plentiful, I only donate to such. Beyond Docs without borders there is also Kiva which facilitates microlaons that let poor people lift themselves out of poverty, Shelter Box provides disaster relief quickly and efficiently, Rotary International is funding polio eradication efforts, The ICRC and affiliates continue to do their good works, Child's Play provides toys and games to children's hospitals and there are many hundreds more.

Where you donate money is no one elses business. If you don't like where the money is going to go, then don't buy a ticket. Obviously there are a lot of people who are fine with this or they would not have raised so much money.

Are you done making shit up about people you know nothing?
I am responding to your posts, if you don't want to come off as uncaring, maybe you should rethink the crap you write.