RE: Church and State

RE: Church and State (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 2:20:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I'm sure the same was said about Madeline Murray O'Hair when she brought the case against mandatory bible reading in public schools. I don't think so. I wasn't posting then. [:)] K.

tazzygirl -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 2:22:33 AM)
Its school sponsored... School ran "The Gift of Hope" Charity Concert will be on Friday, Dec. 9 at the Farrington High School Auditorium at 7 p.m. (doors open at 6:30 p.m.). Don't miss this opportunity to share "the gift of hope" this Christmas and have an eternal impact on someone's life! School location Several of New Hope's singers will be sharing the stage with Moanalua. Among those confirmed is Jana Alcain, who will be performing a moving rendition of the Les Miserables hit, "I Dreamed a Dream." With all the featured talent, audience members are sure to be entertained. http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/lesmiserables/idreamedadream.htm Really christian music there. [8\|] Again, because church members volunteered their time, and their voices, to put on a fundraising event at a local high school.... its bad. Oh yes, I can see the indoctrination now... This concert will be a wonderful foray into the holiday season, as several Christmas songs will be performed. And the church will make a killing... One hundred percent of ticket sales and donations will go to Mercy Ships; not a single penny is used for administrative costs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDYTr-7fjJM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lEC38Axnio Sounds like a great time for these kids was ruined because someone thought they knew what was going on and they grabbed the attention of the lawyers. How dare these kids want to invest their time in a worthwhile cause. How dare the school go along. How dare people volunteer their time and energy, free of charge, to help with this event. I never realized atheists were so... self centered.

tazzygirl -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 2:25:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I am. It takes a lot of guts to stand up for principle in the face of the majority. Ohferchrissake, give it a fucking break. It doesn't take a psych eval to see that he all he's doing here is wrapping his Christophobia in the flag. K. I'm sure the same was said about Madeline Murray O'Hair when she brought the case against mandatory bible reading in public schools. Guess what is the difference in these cases? I will give you a hint... In 1960, Murray filed a lawsuit against the Baltimore City Public School System, in which she asserted that it was unconstitutional for her son William to be required to participate in Bible readings at Baltimore public schools. In this litigation, she stated that her son's refusal to partake in the Bible readings had resulted in bullying being directed against him by classmates, and that administrators condoned it.[6] Fuck no I dont blame her. This is not the same.. not even close.

Kirata -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 2:53:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I never realized atheists were so... self centered. I've known Atheists my entire life, academically, professionally, and socially. And except for some of the ones I've encountered on these boards, they were all intelligent, open-minded, and gracious individuals. So I don't think what we're seeing here has anything to do with Atheism. I think some insecure, butt-hurt, angry people just sooner or later latch onto something they can use to fuck with other people's lives the way they feel theirs was fucked with. They like to pretend to nobility of purpose, but they're really just people with a grievance getting even. K.

DomKen -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 3:19:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I am. It takes a lot of guts to stand up for principle in the face of the majority. Ohferchrissake, give it a fucking break. It doesn't take a psych eval to see that he all he's doing here is wrapping his Christophobia in the flag. K. I'm sure the same was said about Madeline Murray O'Hair when she brought the case against mandatory bible reading in public schools. Guess what is the difference in these cases? I will give you a hint... In 1960, Murray filed a lawsuit against the Baltimore City Public School System, in which she asserted that it was unconstitutional for her son William to be required to participate in Bible readings at Baltimore public schools. In this litigation, she stated that her son's refusal to partake in the Bible readings had resulted in bullying being directed against him by classmates, and that administrators condoned it.[6] Fuck no I dont blame her. This is not the same.. not even close. I never said it was. I just said the same things were said and written about her as have been said and written about Kahle. It's good that we're not fighting those big battles any more but the cost of those freedoms is eternal vigilance since it is clear to anyone who monitors this stuff that the religious extremists will always try to bring back what we've fought to be free of. Maybe this concert wouldn't have led anywhere worse but what if the next year they slip in a prayer? Then the church starts taking a cut to cover "costs." Sooner or later the line is crossed and then the false outrage would be about the tradition of holding this concert just like the tradition of reading bible verses in Baltimore in 1962.

Kirata -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 3:34:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Maybe this concert wouldn't have led anywhere worse but what if the next year they slip in a prayer? Then the church starts taking a cut to cover "costs." Sooner or later the line is crossed... Good thinking, Ken. Along the same lines, maybe we should nuke China. Letting them continue to grow at their present rate might not lead to anything bad. But what if next year they blockade the South China Sea and start charging tolls for shipping? And then they work on isolating Taiwan. Sooner or later the line would be crossed. K.

thishereboi -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 5:07:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Most Christians I know are not conquistadors, crusaders, fundamentalist wackos, or theological lawyers. They just try to fulfill the commandment to love one another, and to live their lives in accord with the principle (if you'll excuse the paraphrase) that whatsoever ye do to another, ye do unto Me. I think it's time to coin the word "Christophobia" for flakes like this asshole. His website is an all but endless screed that stops at nothing to prove how evil Christians are, and how vile their beliefs. My favorite was: Jesus Christ and his angels of death plan to destroy the Earth and kill all non-Christians K. Christophobia. I like that one. It would totally fit the guy who stopped in the store when I was working the other night. He walked up to the counter and listened to the cd I was playing for a minute. Then he asked if it was Mannheim Steamroller. I said yes it was and he said he was an athiest and was offended by the song playing. Then he suggested I find something else to listen too. I asked if it was instrumental music he had a problem with and he said no it was all christmas music. I pointed out that the song in question had nothing to do with christmas and he said whatever and walked out. I guess some people feel the need to find something to be offended about or they are not happy for the day. What a tool.

jlf1961 -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 5:18:47 AM)
They still put up Christmas trees in local classrooms. The city I live in still holds its annual (city sponsored) Christmas parade. And I know for a fact the city and schools are not doing this because in reality the date we celebrate the birth of Christ was a Roman holiday dedicated to the god Sol Ivictus. But then there are more churches in this town than bars. (actually there are more churches in this town than bars and strip joints)

cordeliasub -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 6:57:49 AM)
I am not a big fan of this particular group I am about to mention....but my response to this threatened lawsuit would have been to call a research or legal group like the ACLJ. There are all sorts of holes in this man's objection that could be easily poked through with the same strong arm tactics he used. Like I said, when I realized this was becoming more and more of an issue, as a music teacher, I armed myself with research, articles, even some case law study, just in case anyone ever decided to make a big deal over Joy to the World or Let There Be Peace on Earth. That, some very articulate confidence, and a good pari of 5 inch heels on my 5'9" frame...and I have never had a problem ;)

vincentML -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 7:30:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 They still put up Christmas trees in local classrooms. The city I live in still holds its annual (city sponsored) Christmas parade. And I know for a fact the city and schools are not doing this because in reality the date we celebrate the birth of Christ was a Roman holiday dedicated to the god Sol Ivictus. But then there are more churches in this town than bars. (actually there are more churches in this town than bars and strip joints) And they still dope race horses but it is not legal. Foreign nations have been warned to avoid eating horse meat from the USA because of the toxicity. Toxicity comes in different forms.

cordeliasub -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 7:58:44 AM)
If you do the research....there is nothing illegal about Christmas trees or Christmas parades. A lot of the things we have been made to think are illegal really aren't. Heck, the alarmists who say kids can't pray in schools are even wrong. KIDS can pray in schools all they want to. It's the teacher who can't lol. And turst me, some days we need it ;)

Owner59 -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 8:12:25 AM)
If these same schools and communities were ok with a morning Wiccan prayer or a Pagan holiday display in the town square then there wouldn`t be an issue. But it`s not ok.....and therein lies the problem. How about stopping school two or three times a day for Muslim prayers?

DomKen -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 8:31:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cordeliasub If you do the research....there is nothing illegal about Christmas trees or Christmas parades. A lot of the things we have been made to think are illegal really aren't. Heck, the alarmists who say kids can't pray in schools are even wrong. KIDS can pray in schools all they want to. It's the teacher who can't lol. And turst me, some days we need it ;) Anyone can pray in school. Teachers leading a prayer is a grey area and mandating prayer is of course not allowed. Christmas trees are not considered a religious symbol so they're pretty much ok, might get into trouble if the ornaments are overtly religious.

Toysinbabeland -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 8:55:34 AM)
I am glad when I see a religious display of any sort that promotes peacefulness. anyone who has a problem with that probably has internal issues. what does it matter what religion you are, as long as you are peaceful? intentions are everything.

vincentML -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 9:28:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cordeliasub If you do the research....there is nothing illegal about Christmas trees or Christmas parades. A lot of the things we have been made to think are illegal really aren't. Heck, the alarmists who say kids can't pray in schools are even wrong. KIDS can pray in schools all they want to. It's the teacher who can't lol. And turst me, some days we need it ;) You are correct. Illegal was not a proper word. This is what makes it unconstitutional: from jlf #108 . . . . "And I know for a fact the city and schools are not doing this because in reality the date we celebrate the birth of Christ was a Roman holiday dedicated to the god Sol Ivictus."

vincentML -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 9:30:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland I am glad when I see a religious display of any sort that promotes peacefulness. anyone who has a problem with that probably has internal issues. what does it matter what religion you are, as long as you are peaceful? intentions are everything. So, you agree that the intentions of the First Amendment and the subsequent Case Law are also significant?

vincentML -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 9:33:59 AM)
quote: Anyone can pray in school. Teachers leading a prayer is a grey area and mandating prayer is of course not allowed. Organized prayer? I don't think so. Silently, unobtrusively, individually . . . yeah. After school on school grounds as a self organized religious student group if there are other student activities . . . yeah.

RacerJim -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 9:37:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The actual concern is that the public school orchestra is being used to make money for the church. There's no indication that anyone is "being used," the money isn't "for the church," and the "actual concern" being alleged is that it's unconstitutional. The church sells the tickets. Do they take "expenses" before sending the donation? The church sells concessions and other material at the performance. Do they deduct their "expenses" before donating those monies? Is the church's name included on programs and advertisemnts? Do they reimburse the school for that advertising? You uncritically claim the church isn't making money off this. The smart money is on the church making money from this. You're full of shit.

Toysinbabeland -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 9:38:13 AM)
Vincentml quote: So, you agree that the intentions of the First Amendment and the subsequent Case Law are also significant? that all depends, what exactly are you trying to trap me into? you can twist my words around all you like, but it's never going to change what I mean.

vincentML -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 9:41:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland Vincentml quote: So, you agree that the intentions of the First Amendment and the subsequent Case Law are also significant? that all depends, what exactly are you trying to trap me into? you can twist my words around all you like, but it's never going to change what I mean. Not trying to trap you. The issue in this thread was a court injunction brought under the First Amendment to the Constitution . . . explained in the OP.

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