RE: Church and State

RE: Church and State (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 9:44:02 AM)
quote: Maybe this concert wouldn't have led anywhere worse but what if the next year they slip in a prayer? Then the church starts taking a cut to cover "costs." Sooner or later the line is crossed and then the false outrage would be about the tradition of holding this concert just like the tradition of reading bible verses in Baltimore in 1962. This would have been their 7th year. We now have to live our lives by "what if"? We arent often at odds on issues. But this one was way overreaching and only hurt the kids. The concert went on without them. The event raised more money than years before. This is something to be proud about?

tazzygirl -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 9:45:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I never realized atheists were so... self centered. I've known Atheists my entire life, academically, professionally, and socially. And except for some of the ones I've encountered on these boards, they were all intelligent, open-minded, and gracious individuals. So I don't think what we're seeing here has anything to do with Atheism. I think some insecure, butt-hurt, angry people just sooner or later latch onto something they can use to fuck with other people's lives the way they feel theirs was fucked with. They like to pretend to nobility of purpose, but they're really just people with a grievance getting even. K. You are right. It was a lousy thing for me to say. I apologize to all the atheists here for that comment. I know not all of them on these boards are that way.

Toysinbabeland -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 9:49:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland Vincentml quote: So, you agree that the intentions of the First Amendment and the subsequent Case Law are also significant? that all depends, what exactly are you trying to trap me into?you can twist my words around all you like, but it's never going to change what I mean. Not trying to trap you. The issue in this thread was a court injunction brought under the First Amendment to the Constitution . . . explained in the OP. so that it is not convoluted. . I believe that religious displays in the name of peace have a rightful place in society. this was in response to people saying that different forms of religion may or may not be considered offensive. as for the First Amendment, "Congressshall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the rightof the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." I believe that anyone can tear anything that they want apart in order to make it follow their own rule. Again, it is the intent of the law that matters. what are your feelings on this subject?

DomKen -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 1:26:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Maybe this concert wouldn't have led anywhere worse but what if the next year they slip in a prayer? Then the church starts taking a cut to cover "costs." Sooner or later the line is crossed and then the false outrage would be about the tradition of holding this concert just like the tradition of reading bible verses in Baltimore in 1962. This would have been their 7th year. We now have to live our lives by "what if"? We arent often at odds on issues. But this one was way overreaching and only hurt the kids. The concert went on without them. The event raised more money than years before. This is something to be proud about? A church raied money for a religious organization. I'm quite fine with that. The students time was wasted learning the program for this event and that is unfortunate. But nothing will change my mind that this sort of church/state entanglement is a very bad idea and the shame is that it went on for 6 years before anyone said "this is unAmerican and shouldn't be happening."

tazzygirl -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 1:44:44 PM)
quote: But nothing will change my mind that this sort of church/state entanglement is a very bad idea and the shame is that it went on for 6 years before anyone said "this is unAmerican and shouldn't be happening." It is unAmerican for people to come together for a charity event? If there had been a hint of a prayer at any of the concerts, I could agree. There hasnt been. So, tell me, what is the objection? That something might happen? Honestly... where is the blurring here? Its held in a school. http://www.enewhope.org/news/000697/index.php Its called "The Gift of Hope". Nothing says anything about it being a religious event. So, please, Im being serious here... where are the lines being crossed?

Toysinbabeland -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 1:49:30 PM)
The only thing that stopped these kids from playing was the fact that they assembled as a particular group, associate d with that school. Had they all just shown up and been announced as a group of talented kids.....they could have played around the system.

DomKen -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 2:06:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: But nothing will change my mind that this sort of church/state entanglement is a very bad idea and the shame is that it went on for 6 years before anyone said "this is unAmerican and shouldn't be happening." It is unAmerican for people to come together for a charity event? If there had been a hint of a prayer at any of the concerts, I could agree. There hasnt been. So, tell me, what is the objection? That something might happen? Honestly... where is the blurring here? Its held in a school. http://www.enewhope.org/news/000697/index.php Its called "The Gift of Hope". Nothing says anything about it being a religious event. So, please, Im being serious here... where are the lines being crossed? Mercy Ships is a religious organization. A public school was raising funds for them. That is way past the line.

tazzygirl -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 3:06:24 PM)
One of the charities, Mercy Ships, was for many years associated with the Christian missionary organization Youth With A Mission (YWAM). Mercy Ships itself was founded by two YWAM members, but has for years been operationally separate from the youth missionary organization. And then there is this.... What references are required to apply? When applying to serve with Mercy Ships, three references are required; one from your pastor or spiritual leader, one from a friend, and one from your employer. Please note: If you are not able to provide an employer or pastor/spiritual leader reference, return the reference forms along with a note explaining why it is left blank. Submit a substitute reference from a person who has functioned in a supervisor/mentor or coach role for you. Can I apply if I am not a Christian or currently not attending a church? We regularly have non-Christians and/or those who are not currently a member of church apply to volunteer. Although the vast majority of our staff and volunteers are followers of Jesus, we will consider all applicants. At the discretion of the Managing Director, non-Christian volunteers may be accepted short-term, based on their skills and our needs. However, all volunteers must have a lifestyle consistent with our Core Values and be willing to adhere to our Code of Conduct. http://www.mercyships.org/volunteer/general/ You insist this is a religious organization. Im not seeing it.

vincentML -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 3:20:49 PM)
quote: I believe that anyone can tear anything that they want apart in order to make it follow their own rule. Again, it is the intent of the law that matters. what are your feelings on this subject? Toys, thank you for asking; I have feelings on two levels. Historically, the First was drafted to protect religions against each other and against what happened in Europe when the Treaty of Westphalia gave States/Nations the right to compel religious observance chosen by the ruler. It is in direct line of the Puritans' migration seeking religious freedom [although they turned out to be pretty zealous and authoritarian] Not only is the intent to prevent one dominant religion, the First also has the effect of protecting nonbelievers from required participation or observation of religious ritual sponsored by the State, meaning the Federal government and the several states (through the 14th Amendment) So, essentially it is a protection of Liberty. One that is not provided so much in some Middle Eastern nations. On a personal level, I am a nonbeliever. I am also a pretty old guy. I can recall daily readings from the Old Testament in my public school classroom. Not only does the First protect against establishment of a State religion, it guarantees the right of every one to practice their own religion when and how they wish, or not at all, as long as their practice is not affiliated with a governmental function. Additionally, it protects the right to make your own decisions about freedom of assembly. Kids who are forced to assemble in a classroom to listen to prayer or bible reading have lost that option. In conclusion, I think all aspects of the First should be zealously guarded and maintained even if doing so infringes on something popular or unpopular as when the ACLU defended the FA rights of the KKK to hold a parade in Indiana (?) Emotions may run high over a particular issue but in our system it is left to the Courts to decide.

dcnovice -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 3:29:39 PM)
quote: one from your pastor or spiritual leader, To be honest, this seems an odd requirement for a nonreligious organization.

tazzygirl -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 3:45:15 PM)
Mercy Ships Associates - Non-profit Religious Order Mercy Ships Foundation - Mercy Ships Foundation is a non-profit, tax-exempt organization, established to support the mission of Mercy Ships through fund raising and property management services Mercy Ships International - Mercy Ships International serves the mission of Mercy Ships through strategy, governance, resource raising and coordination as appropriate for Mercy Ships and its affiliates worldwide http://www.ecfa.org/MemberProfile.aspx?ID=9247 In a letter to the Department of Education, Mitch Kahle, founder of the Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, took issue with the involvement of New Hope Church, which handles ticket sales and sells those tickets at its services. His issue was not the charity... his issue was the local church.

DomKen -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 3:53:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl One of the charities, Mercy Ships, was for many years associated with the Christian missionary organization Youth With A Mission (YWAM). Mercy Ships itself was founded by two YWAM members, but has for years been operationally separate from the youth missionary organization. And then there is this.... What references are required to apply? When applying to serve with Mercy Ships, three references are required; one from your pastor or spiritual leader, one from a friend, and one from your employer. Please note: If you are not able to provide an employer or pastor/spiritual leader reference, return the reference forms along with a note explaining why it is left blank. Submit a substitute reference from a person who has functioned in a supervisor/mentor or coach role for you. Can I apply if I am not a Christian or currently not attending a church? We regularly have non-Christians and/or those who are not currently a member of church apply to volunteer. Although the vast majority of our staff and volunteers are followers of Jesus, we will consider all applicants. At the discretion of the Managing Director, non-Christian volunteers may be accepted short-term, based on their skills and our needs. However, all volunteers must have a lifestyle consistent with our Core Values and be willing to adhere to our Code of Conduct. http://www.mercyships.org/volunteer/general/ You insist this is a religious organization. Im not seeing it. It only accepts non christians on a short term basis and rejects LBTG applicants entirely. What's so hard to see?

tazzygirl -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 4:01:02 PM)
quote: rejects LBTG applicants entirely Thats no where on the site. Why would you say that?

DomKen -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 4:02:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: rejects LBTG applicants entirely Thats no where on the site. Why would you say that? That's what core values and code of conduct always means.

tazzygirl -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 4:04:43 PM)
Or could it be that the ships volunteers are required to give blood donations if needed? And, I am assuming you know the federal guidelines for blood donations. quote: That's what core values and code of conduct always means. It could be just as easily mean no drinking, fighting, stealing, ect.

DomKen -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 4:13:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Or could it be that the ships volunteers are required to give blood donations if needed? And, I am assuming you know the federal guidelines for blood donations. quote: That's what core values and code of conduct always means. It could be just as easily mean no drinking, fighting, stealing, ect. Notice how the only way to get the code of conduct and core values is to apply and provide the references or explanation of why you can't. That allows them to reject anyone without explanation if they suspect anything that doesn't match up with their religious beliefs. The founding group is exceptionally dodgy as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_With_A_Mission

dcnovice -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 4:25:14 PM)
quote: Notice how the only way to get the code of conduct and core values is to apply and provide the references or explanation of why you can't. I was intrigued by the fact that the Mercy Ships site gave me a big 404 when I searched for the code of conduct. I did, though, find some details in chapter four of the crew handbook for the Africa Mercy. Two things particularly interested me: 4. Code of Conduct Mercy Ships is an international faith-based charity whose foundation rests on an integrated biblical worldview of service to others and a personal relationship with Jesus. As such, all employees and volunteers (staff) are expected to respect these spiritual values and in no case undermine the values directly or indirectly in their interactions with others. The purpose of the following Code of Conduct is to ensure all staff's safety as well as protect the reputation of both Mercy Ships and our staff. The following is not intended to be "all inclusive". All staff are expected to abide by this Code of Conduct. Violation of the Code of Conduct could result in dismissal. * * * Sexual Immorality Mercy Ships will not tolerate any form of sexual harassment, pornography, or immoral act (defined as any sexual contact between individuals who are not a legally married man and woman).

tazzygirl -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 4:45:42 PM)
quote: The founding group is exceptionally dodgy as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_With_A_Mission Already mentioned above. Point is, his objection was not based upon Mercy Ships... it was based upon the local church.

tazzygirl -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 4:48:51 PM)
double post

Kirata -> RE: Church and State (12/9/2012 5:35:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Jesus Christ and his angels of death plan to destroy the Earth and kill all non-Christians Hmmmm. What does that last book in the bible supposedly foretell? The destruction of the Earth and the slaughter of all non christians. Do many christian groups profess a desire to have this happen as soon as possible? Is it not possible to find explicit statements that environmental destruction and war in the ME are good for christians because it hurries the "end times?" There are any number of examples I could offer of groups that have flaky extremist elements, and there is always some idiot who can be counted upon to condemn the whole lot for that cause. K.

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