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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 11:05:20 AM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Currently there is no state in the United States that has a sin tax on tobacco or alcohol sales, which I am glad since I smoke and drink.


http://taxfoundation.org/article/state-sales-gasoline-cigarette-and-alcohol-tax-rates-state-2000-2010

States do have sin taxes.



I stand corrected.

Thank you Tazzy

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 1:36:20 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		As Kana said, kids have easy access to pot but not alcohol.

Which is a statement that pretty much says everything about the failure of banning it and,the value of legalizing,it.

There is also the expensive and very corrosive effect that the hypocrisy of a policy that has large numbers of people seeing the law as something evil and best violated rather than an ethical part of our social contract. Oh and it also costs a whole shit ton of money.

So, not only can we tax the hell out of it, bit vast sums are spent by almost every part of our government.

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 1:50:57 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

I don't agree at all. There are lots of better alternatives to what we have been doing for 40 years, Butch



I really want to know... what is a good alternative to legal unlimited access to methamphetamine for instance. Or Heroin a drug that even in pure form continues to demand stronger and stronger doses for the same high...Will any limitations you put on the drug not be just as confining to some as mine are to you? Where do you stop?

I am not going over all the links I have posted in the past nor am I going to debate them... Those interested can look them up for themselves. But from what I gathered legalization in Its many forms where tried did temporarily reduce crime... and overdoses...and the cost to tax payers. However after time the gains were offset by more users and related healthcare cost... Crime began to rise again when some users reached the limits of their escalating habits and again turned to the illegal elements to supplement their habit....and overdoses increased accordingly.

The bottom line is the legalization did little to stop overdoses...did not reduce users...and did not save much money to the tax payers... So in the end just more people dependant and suffering.

I am all for new ideas I just have not heard any I think at least will work.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/8/2012 2:28:20 PM >

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 3:07:46 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		Kdsub, define unlimited access and contrast it with what we have now.

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 4:50:41 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Butch, no state has legalized meth or heroin. There is no such thing as a lethal dose of marijuana.



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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 4:54:22 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Butch, no state has legalized meth or heroin. There is no such thing as a lethal dose of marijuana.




Actually, people have died from eating too much....don't remember what that amount is...smoking it....pretty tough to die from that....you just pass out.

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 5:04:39 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I drink socially and am responsible and I’m sure most pot users are the same but there will always be the abusers. Do we really need another way to escape reality?



Why discriminate?

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 5:05:00 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		If that's the NIDA study I'm thinking of, Lookie, it turned out the monkey died of a ruptured stomach. Anything on Michelle Obama's list of healthy foods will do that to you too.

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 6:22:17 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes this is true...but we have kids and they will have kids...and as they move through the culture of free access to drugs...is not alcohol not enough to worry about?

Butch

Butch,trust me I am not being sarcastic here,but how about we just raise our kids right ?
Raise them right,give them a moral compass.....and then have some damm faith that they will act responsible.


I'm a parent....my son's 25,he lives in New York,I in North Carolina and I sleep fine .
No changing law,or shifting public opinion will cause me any worry....because I know the child I raised .

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 8:56:20 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Raise them right,give them a moral compass.....and then have some damm faith that they will act responsible.


Mike you know as well as I kids will experiment...even good kids. Some of these drugs available illegally can with some susceptible children hook them with limited exposure.

Some earlier in this thread insinuated that all drugs should be available with free choice. Will our children need to be protected at least. And with free legal access to hard drugs for adults children will get them.

I am against pot not because the drug is so dangerous but what legalization represents. I do believe that the more access with any drug the more likely kids are to use that drug and experiment with others. Old time thinking I know but I believe it valid.

Butch

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 11:36:46 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		The fact that pot is no more or less harmful than tobacco or alcohol is a point in its favor.

The problem with it is the idea that it is a gateway drug.

The problem with this theory is that the people I know who use pot started on pot, stayed on pot and never tried anything else. But then there are the stories of people who started on pot and ended on meth, coke, or some other drug.

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 11:47:24 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Should we be stating that cigarettes and alcohol are "gateway drugs," too?

If marijuana is no longer illegal, will it lead users to meeting drug dealers?

If we are no longer treating this mild psychoactive as one of the most dangerous drugs out there, will that perhaps let the warnings about the actually dangerous stuff sink in?

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 11:47:55 PM   
smartsub10


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The fact that pot is no more or less harmful than tobacco or alcohol is a point in its favor.

The problem with it is the idea that it is a gateway drug.

The problem with this theory is that the people I know who use pot started on pot, stayed on pot and never tried anything else. But then there are the stories of people who started on pot and ended on meth, coke, or some other drug.


Some of the people I've known who started using pot did so because they didn't like an alcohol buzz. So, you could say that alcohol is a gateway to pot.

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/8/2012 11:58:25 PM   
Owner59


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How about the concept of NOT taking away someone`s liberty over pot...... period?

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/9/2012 12:26:15 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Thoughts on the legalization of marijuana in Washington State, and what it will mean across the rest of the country?

What response do you think should be expected from the federal level?

I dont think it means anything at all.. the Feds can still throw you in jail for pot and imo they absolutely will not change their stand on that, for at least the next 100 years, if ever..

And the jail system, since much is run by private corps who want more people in jail cuz each one is $$$$ to them, its a big profitable industry.. A very high number of those in jail are there on drug charges.. so imo, those big corps will lobby the Feds to resist making pot legal.. not to mention fines that the court system gets for minor offences and on major drug busts, confiscation of all property & assets, cash, etc the offenders have (which gets split between the Feds & locals).. Too much money to lose by making it totally Federally legal for that to happen, imo..

I personally think it should be totally legal, and I especially think that people that need pot for medical reasons should be able to get it without risking jail time or any type of criminal record or losing their assets.. btw, I am not a pot smoker and have never smoked it, no inclination to ever do so either..

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/9/2012 5:13:06 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Should we be stating that cigarettes and alcohol are "gateway drugs," too


I believe they are...but as a realist I know they will never be banded.. will cigarettes may be... but the point is if we have, as in your example above, two legal gateway drugs do we really need three...or four...or five...Just so some dumb ass pot head can get high...damn sniveling weaklings...lol...Over the top much, I sound like my Dad.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/9/2012 9:54:36 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Should we be stating that cigarettes and alcohol are "gateway drugs," too


I believe they are...but as a realist I know they will never be banded.. will cigarettes may be... but the point is if we have, as in your example above, two legal gateway drugs do we really need three...or four...or five...Just so some dumb ass pot head can get high...damn sniveling weaklings...lol...Over the top much, I sound like my Dad.

Butch

You know, its not really that cigs and booze or pot is so great.. they really arent the gateway drug.. the real gateway drug is peer pressure.. isnt that really how most kids start? their friends or older siblings are "doing it", so they wanna try too.. or they see their parents "doing it" and think thats what you want to do when you are grown up, and kids are in a rush to grow up & so they act like adults act.. That is how smoking started with me at about age 10 or 11.. (it was both seeing my parents smoke and kids i knew).. luckily for me I quit cigs after a few months and grew some brains shortly after that and didnt do things just cuz "everyone else is doing it"..

just sayin'

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/10/2012 11:38:04 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

just sayin'


And you are right...peer pressure or just the desire to be considered grown does often start kids on cigs and booze...but soon they are addicted and that goes for other drugs as well... I just don't think getting high is worth more drug related tragedies for personal freedom.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/10/2012 2:48:41 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

just sayin'


And you are right...peer pressure or just the desire to be considered grown does often start kids on cigs and booze...but soon they are addicted and that goes for other drugs as well... I just don't think getting high is worth more drug related tragedies for personal freedom.

Butch

The way I see it.. its got not much to do with personal freedom, its got to do with teaching kids to think for themselves, to use common sense, to not be one of the sheep and do something just cuz their friends are doing it, teach them to be free thinkers.. Few parents teach their kids that tho.. so instead they try to restrict everyones freedoms.. which really doesnt work, cuz if someone wants something then they will find a way to get it..

I had a friend that died too young from MS.. I have read that pot helps with that disease (as well as other ailments), I sometimes wonder if it would have helped her.. so for medical reasons, I do think people should have the personal freedom to choose to use it if it helps them..

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RE: The winds of change have a funny smell - 12/11/2012 5:36:27 PM   
SadistDave


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Status: offline 		I think the administration has other plans.

However it's apparently just a political concern for Obummer, not an issue of freedom.

I don't think this will turn out quite the way you all imagine that it will. He doesn't need to win votes atthis point, so I suspect that in the end his percieved support for legalizing pot will go up in smoke.

-SD-

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