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We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/9/2012 9:40:32 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Actually not really conned, but there were some shady stuff going on back then.

First, lets get rid of the December 25th as the birth day of Christ. When Constantine legalized the Christian church, he had some conditions, one of which was that the feast for the birth of Christ be celebrated on the same day as the high feast for Sol Ivictus, the Roman sun god.
To be honest, no shepherd in his right mind would have his sheep in the fields this time of year in the holy land.

Now lets look at the year of Christ's birth, it would have to have been before the year 4 AD, since that was the year that Herod died. To get even more confusing is the part of the story about Caesar Augustus decreeing that "all the world be taxed," that little tidbit pushes the year of Christ's birth to before 14AD, the year that Augustus died.

With that taken care of, let us look at some of the legal aspects in effect at the time.

First, the "world" that Augustus referred to would have only included Roman citizens, not the non-citizens of the lands not considered provinces. In other words, Joseph was not subject to this decree. His taxes would have been levied by the local governor.

Secondly, even if Joseph were subject to this tax by being a Roman subject, he would have been taxed in the town he lived in. The Romans were methodical and efficient, not anal retentive.

Why Bethlehem?

This is simple, to fulfill an old testament prophecy about the coming messiah. This fact was well known to Jews at the time of Christ, so the authors of the gospels had to give him the proper street cred, in literary circles, this is called staging.

The Gospel of Luke is the only gospel that has Joseph and Mary traveling to Bethlehem, the gospel of Mathew puts them there already.

The only way to make this conflict work is like this, the author of Mathew knew that Joseph and Mary lived in Bethlehem and later moved to Nazareth, while the author of Luke did not know this fact.

And of course, Joseph was an uncaring, cruel man to make is pregnant wife travel late in her pregnancy. Considering the risks, this could have been fatal.

So, let us fix that problem by making the statement that Joseph and Mary lived in Bethlehem at the time of Christ's birth.

Of course there is the bigger problem, why would 3 pagan kings journey to Bethlehem to honor a baby Jew? Not only that, but if the star they followed was so badly placed that it led them to Jerusalem first, then it moved to show them to Bethlehem. Anyone see the problem with this?

Now, the gospels concerning Jesus' life clearly demonstrates his divinity, with the miracles he performed, so why go through the trouble of all the inconsistencies concerning his birth? Who were these gospels aimed at, contemporary Jews, making it easy for them to convert by making the birth of Christ be in line with the old testament prophecy?

Christian theologians have been trying to explain these points for over 2000 years.

For me, I believe that Jesus was the son of god, and he died for our sins. I also believe that his early life was subject to authors taking creative license with the facts.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI
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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/9/2012 9:47:46 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Well that's just lovely.

And here's some good spiritual cheer right back at you. Looks like somebody pissed on this, too.







Attachment (1)

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/9/2012 10:37:41 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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Christ

I and my Father are one
John 10:30

as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things
John 8:28

if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you
Matthew 6:15

I will have mercy, and not sacrifice
Matthew 9:13

I will have mercy, and not sacrifice
Matthew 12:7


Paul

Christ died for our sins
1 Corinthians 15:3

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not
Romans 9:1

the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
Galatians 1:20

I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
1 Timothy 2:7


Richard Nixon

I am not a crook

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/9/2012 10:40:27 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Actually not really conned, but there were some shady stuff going on back then.
First, lets get rid of the December 25th as the birth day of Christ. When Constantine legalized the Christian church, he had some conditions, one of which was that the feast for the birth of Christ be celebrated on the same day as the high feast for Sol Ivictus, the Roman sun god.
To be honest, no shepherd in his right mind would have his sheep in the fields this time of year in the holy land.
Now lets look at the year of Christ's birth, it would have to have been before the year 4 AD, since that was the year that Herod died. To get even more confusing is the part of the story about Caesar Augustus decreeing that "all the world be taxed," that little tidbit pushes the year of Christ's birth to before 14AD, the year that Augustus died.


You are saying that Christ was born prior to 4 and 14 Anno Domini. How is that inconsistent with the teachings of the Gospels? The BC/AD designations were devised in 525 (according to the Anno Domini Wiki) and BC is taken to represent Before Christ, and Anno Domini is short for "In the Year of our Lord Jesus Christ." So, any time after AD 1, would be after Christ's birth.

According to another Wiki, Herod the Great died in AD 4, but his son, Herod Antipas assumed the title of tetrarch over Galilee and Perea, and he is the Herod of the Bible, not Herod the Great.

quote:

With that taken care of, let us look at some of the legal aspects in effect at the time.
First, the "world" that Augustus referred to would have only included Roman citizens, not the non-citizens of the lands not considered provinces. In other words, Joseph was not subject to this decree. His taxes would have been levied by the local governor.
Secondly, even if Joseph were subject to this tax by being a Roman subject, he would have been taxed in the town he lived in. The Romans were methodical and efficient, not anal retentive.
Why Bethlehem?
This is simple, to fulfill an old testament prophecy about the coming messiah. This fact was well known to Jews at the time of Christ, so the authors of the gospels had to give him the proper street cred, in literary circles, this is called staging.
The Gospel of Luke is the only gospel that has Joseph and Mary traveling to Bethlehem, the gospel of Mathew puts them there already.
The only way to make this conflict work is like this, the author of Mathew knew that Joseph and Mary lived in Bethlehem and later moved to Nazareth, while the author of Luke did not know this fact.
And of course, Joseph was an uncaring, cruel man to make is pregnant wife travel late in her pregnancy. Considering the risks, this could have been fatal.
So, let us fix that problem by making the statement that Joseph and Mary lived in Bethlehem at the time of Christ's birth.
Of course there is the bigger problem, why would 3 pagan kings journey to Bethlehem to honor a baby Jew? Not only that, but if the star they followed was so badly placed that it led them to Jerusalem first, then it moved to show them to Bethlehem. Anyone see the problem with this?
Now, the gospels concerning Jesus' life clearly demonstrates his divinity, with the miracles he performed, so why go through the trouble of all the inconsistencies concerning his birth? Who were these gospels aimed at, contemporary Jews, making it easy for them to convert by making the birth of Christ be in line with the old testament prophecy?
Christian theologians have been trying to explain these points for over 2000 years.
For me, I believe that Jesus was the son of god, and he died for our sins. I also believe that his early life was subject to authors taking creative license with the facts.


There is conflicting opinion on whether or not Mary and Joseph traveled from Galilee to Bethlehem, and why. Some take Augustus' decree for everyone to be taxed as the payment definition, but others see it as meaning "to be estimate," or to take part in a census. Whether or not Roman methodology required men to return to their birth home, or whatever it would be called (Joseph was from the House of David, so he went to the City of David, Bethlehem), is also not settled.

These things were gleaned from wiki answers, so take them with the appropriate level of salt.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/9/2012 10:51:09 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		sorry, of course I meant 4BCE and 14 BCE

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/9/2012 11:15:08 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		You are kinda right.

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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 1:02:44 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Christmas is a religious festival so of course its an irrational load of nonsense. Though to be honest, I see little of christianity in Christmas these days, a consumer version of the old pagan mid-winter festival seems to have imposed itself, when you would slaughter your livestock and gorge yourself because you couldn't keep all the livestock alive over winter.

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 1:11:22 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		~Fast Reply~

Does it matter as long as you still get the presents?

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I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 1:53:57 AM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		No offence, but this "We've been conned for 2016 years" thing is kind of a bullshit cop-out. Even allowing that you personally believe in God and Jesus... In truth, people have been conned since the first notion of a higher power was born in the mind of ancient man. This idea that we've been conned by religion is applicable since the beginning of recorded human civilization. People who were leaving offerings at shrines to woodland spirits thousands of years before Christ and followers of the pedophile prophet Muhammad who rose to power 600 years after the fable of his death and Resurrection have been equally "conned".

In particular though.... I take issue with this:
quote:

Now, the gospels concerning Jesus' life clearly demonstrates his divinity, with the miracles he performed...
To begin with, Jesus wasn't that smart. Throughout the scriptures he spouts nonsense as though it were fact. Facts, I should add, that do not pass muster by any scientific or medical definition. Prayer heals everything, diseases are caused by demons, faith will bring back the dead... poppycock! The few times Jesus quotes scripture in the New Testament, he gets them wrong, from not knowing the 10 commandments (dropped 5, added 1) to inventing scriptures that do not exist (claims Moses wrote about him...). If you read the scriptures carefully, you will find that a heck of a lot of people including his family thought he was dangerously insane. He was kicked out of at least 2 cities because of his teachings (Nazareth and the town with the demonic pigs). According to scripture he lied and was disrespectful to his mother, and committed a few of the very sins that he described as unforgivable.

There is a moronic kind of double-speak throughout the Bible, but the New Testament is rife with it and sometimes even contradicts itself in the same chapter. If you pay close attention, you will find out that some demons are of God (yeah... really), according to Jesus wise people will reject him, Jesus fits his own description of a false messiah precisely, Jesus is described almost exactly the same way Lucifer is described (The Morning Star) and dozens of other conflicting messages.

The idea behind Jesus divinity is a pretty good giveaway as to the fictional nature of the accounts as well. Once upon a time an all-powerful, all-knowing skydaddy created everything and everyone in the universe. He screwed up though, and had to kill off the entire population of the world ( -8 people and 2 of each animal). They repopulate the Earth, but then God figures out that he's cocked the whole mess up again and needs to correct His mistakes one more time, so He sends down his son to be tortured mercilessly and whacked in a dramatic fashion to correct His mistake. Just to cover his ass for his next cosmic fuck-up, God sends a prophesy along with Jr. that at some undisclosed time in the future He will be destroying the world again, but The Jeez will make a reappearance to save the faithful. So you'd better do exactly what Jesus says or else!

Then there's that inconvenient bit of history surrounding the story itself. 300 years after the Resurrection, The Council of Nicaea met and did two things of great importance to this conversation. 1. They voted to agree that Jesus was the divine son of God, and 2. they picked the books of the modern Bible from hundreds of alleged holy texts. There was a set of guidelines to choose which books would be included and which would be considered apocryphal. Considerations of which of the texts were being used the most for which services and which might be used to corroborate other books were two of the most important factors in deciding which of the 500 or so books became canonical. So at the Council of Nicaea there was a sort of "Evangelical Idol" that created the Church's primary deity, chose its holy texts, and settled on religious law based completely on the popular vote of the attending judges... um... clergy.

If anything, the story of Jesus Christ is the story of a con-man, more than a divine being. The story was given weight by indoctrination hundreds of years after the fact, and remains the foundation of Christian faith today. 1700 years of belief in a lie doesn't make the lie any more true though. The story isn't even good enough to support the lie though, and it continually amazes me that people continue to defend it when it can be condemned by it's own content. But I suppose that is the nature of faith, whether it is religious or political. One of my favorite quotes about faith comes from Michael Shermer, Editor of Skeptics Magazine: “Smart people are very good at rationalizing things they came to believe for non-smart reasons.”

-SD-

Um... I don't know why this says it's a response to Rule. It was a response to the OP....

< Message edited by SadistDave -- 12/10/2012 2:17:57 AM >

_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 3:33:43 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		So here:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave
the pedophile prophet Muhammad

Mohamed was no pedophile.

My interpretation and knowledge - and I may be wrong:
To strengthen the bond between himself and Mohamed a good friend entrusted his daughter to Mohamed to be raised by him. However, in their culture adopting a (female) child was not possible as it was likely that she would be raped by the male in the family and she would thereby be dishonored. Thus in order not to dishonor the child and in order to give her a honorable, legal status, Mohamed and the child had to marry. They never had intercourse. Presumably she and Mohamed would have divorced when she became of age and she would have married a male of her own choosing - but Mohamed died before she became of age, so we do not know that.

What is important to always keep in mind, is that Mohamed did not write the Quran. Nor did the 'angel' nor the pagan god whom he met introduce nor approve of the Traditions (hadith).

Thus I must conclude that much of Islam is a fraud.


_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 5:23:01 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

If anything, the story of Jesus Christ is the story of a con-man, more than a divine being. -SD-



Well you can add any religious figure to that list of conmen, there is nothing special about Jesus in that. The bible is just a cobbled together censored rag-tag of raving writing, political justifications and mythologised rights to kill who you please as long as you believe in the right thing. Noam Chomsky got it right when he said The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/10/2012 5:24:10 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 8:33:07 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave
If anything, the story of Jesus Christ is the story of a con-man, more than a divine being.

I agree that Jesus was a con-man. But he was one with a message and he became a message. And he truly sacrificed himself for the benefit of all Jews and all mankind.


_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 12:51:28 PM   
VideoAdminChi


Posts: 3086
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline 		FR,

Now that I have removed personal attacks, posts that made another poster the topic, and posts that replied to or quoted the first two categories, this thread is considerably shorter.

If I removed your post and you would like to repost that which was on topic and did not make another poster the topic, please write me.

VideoAdminChi

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 2:07:17 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
sorry, of course I meant 4BCE and 14 BCE


Herod the Great died in 4 BC, but Ceasar Augustus didn't die until 14 AD. Considering that Herod the Great died in 4 BC (I was incorrect when I stated that the Wiki pegged his death at 4 AD), and that Herod Antipas is considered the Herod that Pontius Pilate worked under, there is still no chronological error. As Prefect of Judea from 26 AD to 36 AD, Pontius Pilate's tenure does align with the timeline of Christ's death (I believe he was considered to be 33 when he was crucified).



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 2:07:43 PM   
merge9


Posts: 95
Joined: 6/11/2012
Status: offline 		Yesterday, "We Three Kings" was going through my head and I wondered what happened to the gifts (?)

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 7:28:55 PM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Mohamed was no pedophile.


This depends on who you choose to believe. The girl, I think her name was Ayesha or some such, is considered to be a sort of holy personage in her own right. According to her account she married Mohammed at the age of 6, but did not have sex with him until she was 9. The story can be found in the Sahih Burkhari, which is probably the second holiest book in Islam. It's a collection of the Prophet Mohammed's teaching and life that have been collected from various sources. One of the sources on this very topic is alleged to be Ayesha herself.

Apparently this girl spent hours every day listening to Mohammed and was as knowledgeable in his teachings as any man. Some contemporary sources even claim she could recite the entire Koran from memory. Many modern Imams will praise her intelligence and knowledge then call her a confused and foolish child on the subject of her virginity because their prophet having sex with a 9 year old girl is not good politics in the 21st century.

quote:

Thus I must conclude that much of Islam is a fraud.


We agree, but for different reasons.

-SD-

< Message edited by SadistDave -- 12/10/2012 7:30:25 PM >

_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 7:49:47 PM   
herworshipper


Posts: 22
Joined: 1/26/2010
Status: offline 		I have to disagree with Sadist Dave. Even though there is much of the agnostic in me, I believe that the value of a religion is not strictly in wheither it is true or not.

I remember a Zen Master once coming to a church that I was attending and thanking us for our practice. I have thought a lot about what she meant. Again, it comes back to a vallue of Reliigous belief whether it is my own or whether it is even true.

Common themes in religions are teaching morality and giving people courage. Those things do not get a lot of publicity today. Most of it is negative. And the morality that is focused on is about not haveing sex, or not haveing sex with certain people or bullshit like that. But the most basic morality is about treating others as you would have them treat you. Something that many of us have forgotten, including "fundamentalist" Chirstians.

Do you think that Martin Luther King or Gandhi could have done what they did without their faith? Without faith, to risk one's life is foolish. With faith, one can do things that are otherwise impossible. Keep in mind that the faiths of MLK and Gandhi would have been at least superficially incompatable. Their compatablity and similarity came from taking faith beyond what is superficial.

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 9:21:38 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
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Status: offline 		But one can be moral, treat others as they would want to be treated without having great faith in some all knowing sky being or faith in Jesus being the one and only son of god.

It's called Humanism.

I reject the notion that Jesus was the one and only son of God. I sometimes question the existence of a god at all. But I don't need religion to tell me what is right or wrong. And I certainly don't need religion to tell me how to be a good and loving person.

I was raised by an agnostic mother who eventually found her way to Spiritualism and a step father who was a strict Catholic. He was the equivalent of what many would call a "tool" today. Verbally abusive, a drunk and a cheat to his marriage vows. When he and my mom separated it was the last I saw of the inside of a Catholic Church until my sister married--she'd developed his same strict Catholic belief system and similar ways to sin against that belief system.


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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 9:38:17 PM   
wittynamehere


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quote:

ORIGINAL: herworshipper
Common themes in religions are teaching morality and giving people courage. Those things do not get a lot of publicity today. Most of it is negative.

Okay, but please note that religion doesn't own morality or courage. Those concepts exist independently of religion.

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RE: We have been conned for 2016 years. - 12/10/2012 10:13:40 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline 		Ah the legend of Christ and Christmas... quite a lot of metaphor there..

All based on the most ubiquitous dualities in our history - that of light and dark, or good and evil.

I think you just have to look at both astronomy and astrology. Back then people worshipped the Sun, and paid a lot of attention to stars, the phases of the Moon and events such as eclipses.

They anthropomorphized the constellations, giving each constellation a character based on a human or animal, e.g Aries the Ram, Taurus the Bull, Gemini the Twins.

Jesus was another figure who was anthropomorphized into a personification of the Sun. This was no different to what the Egyptians did with Horus, who was also born on December 25th, born of a virgin, and adored by three kings. Horus was a teacher at 12, baptized at 30, and had twelve disciples who he travelled about with performing miracles and preaching. Horus had an adversary known as Sett who was a personification of darkness and evil, and like Jesus, Horus was betrayed by Typhon and crucified before being resurrected after three days.

Likewise Krishna of India was born of the virgin mother Devaki under a star from the east, he performed miracles and after his death was resurrected. There was also Dionysus of Greece, also born December 25th of a virgin mother, where he grew up to be a teacher, performing miracles (turning water into wine) and after his death he was resurrected. Mithra of Persia was also born of a virgin on December 25th, and was also a preacher with 12 disciples, and after his death was buried for three days after which he was resurrected.

The common link between all of these is astrology (and astronomy).

That bright star in the east is Sirius, which is the brightest star in the sky on the night of December 24th. Also on this night Sirius aligns with the three brightest stars in Orion's Belt, these stars being known as 'The Three Kings'.

Now along a line these Three Kings and Sirius all point to the place on the horizon of the sunrise on December 25th, hence the Three Kings 'follow' the 'Star in the East' (Sirius) to locate the sunrise, or 'the birth of the sun' (or 'son' if you prefer).

The Virgin Mary is the personification of the constellation Virgo - also the astrological sign of Virgo - the Virgin. This is the constellation found in the sky during the time of harvest, the astrological sign of Virgo is ruled by the planet Mercury and is associated with work, duty and service (the symbol for Virgo is 'm' with a crossed downstroke to the right). However the representation of Virgo is a virgin holding a sheaf of wheat.

'Bethlehem' translated literally means 'house of bread', referring not to a place in Israel, but a place in the sky.. the constellation of Virgo which is visible from late August through to late September.

This is linked to another interesting phenomenon. Between the Summer Solstice and the Winter Solstice the days become shorter and colder. When looking from the Northern Hemisphere the Sun appears to move south and get smaller and smaller. On December 22nd the Sun makes it to it's lowest point in the sky, symbolizing death.

At this point the Sun stops moving south for three days.During this time the Sun resides in the area of the sky near the Southern Cross, formed of the Crux constellation. At the end of this period, on the morning of December 25th, the Sun moves one degree to the north, and returning to the Summer Solstice brings with it longer days, warmer days and Spring.

Hence.. the 'Son' (or 'Sun') died on the cross, was dead for three days, only to be resurrected and born again. However Easter is not celebrated until after the Spring Equinox when the Sun visibly overpowers darkness and the cold, and thus evil.

You might also consider that the other Mary, Mary Magdalene, who was found at Jesus's feet during his crucifixion as he died on the cross, could be the personification of the sign of Scorpio, the eighth sign of the zodiac and again symbolized by a letter 'm', this time with the right hand downstroke ending in an arrow pointing back upwards. Scorpio represents the duality of good and evil, life after death, and rebirth.

Observe that Scorpio comes at the end of harvest, in late October and November, heralding the start of winter, bringing with it darkness, cold and is a time when animals have gone into hibernation and the trees are bare.

Between Virgo and Scorpio is Libra, the sign of the scales, the only sign of the zodiac not anthropomorphized into an animalistic or human form, which could have inspired the passage in the Bible leading up to the crucifixion, the judgment where Pontius Pilate was asked to decide on the fate of Jesus.

Hence Jesus (personification of the Sun) had twelve disciples (personifying the constellations or signs of the zodiac). The number 12 occurs repeatedly throughout the Bible - 12 tribes of Israel, 12 sons of Jacob, 12 kings of Israel, and so on.

The number 30 is significant, for every astrological sign has thirty degrees. Therefore Jesus starting to teach at thirty corresponds to the Sun passing through one entire sign of the zodiac.

The number 4 is also significant, there are four seasons in the year, there are four elements in astrology, and this explains why a pagan cross has a circle on a cross - the 'Sun' (circle) across the four elements or seasons. This is also perhaps why in early paintings of Jesus his head is always within a circle or light (the Sun) with a cross in the background.

quote:



'As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world'
John 9:5



quote:



'And go quickly, and tell his disciplines that he is risen from the dead.'
Matthew 29:6



quote:



'And if I go and prepare a place for you I will come again and receive you.'
John 14:3



Is not the Sun the light of the world, which rises and returns every day after night?



_____________________________

Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.

(in reply to jlf1961)
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