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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 5:16:09 AM   
IgorsHand


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

FR:
How is a conflict between one's ideals and self interest a display of hypocrisy if one votes for the former?


There is no hypocrisy either way, even if one votes for one's self interest before one's ideal, something I suspect the majority of people do. The hypocrisy is when you publicly advocate one way and vote the other.

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 6:43:54 AM   
Marc2b


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Status: offline 		It is easy to vote ideas over self interests if you've got your self interests already covered.



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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 8:02:39 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
On the recent welfare thread, Hillwilliam was pointing out that in his part of the world, it's everyday normal to see people who live their lives in multi-generational dependence on government poverty maintenance programs, driving around with Republican candidate bumper stickers.
At the other end, we have people born into lives of unimaginable wealth and privilege, flying their flags for Democrats who are promising to raise taxes on the wealthy.
This was described as, "hypocrisy," and while I can certainly understand that view of the phenomenon, I think it relies entirely on a flawed assumption about why people vote the way they do.
Is voting something to be considered purely from a personal, narrow, self-interest that looks only at what is best for you, in your life, right now, or, is it a decision that should be based on broader beliefs and ideals about the world we live in?
It really isn't a strict, "pick A or B," sort of question. There is going to be a balance, but where in the spectum of, greater good vs. me-me-me is the sweet spot?


People will always vote in their self-interests, even if they are voting for ideals. The ideal situation, in a voter's mind, if it conflicts with their personal individual interests, still satisfies what they see as right. And, if they truly see that as right (else, how would it be ideal?), then it will eventually be in their individual interests. Isn't the good of the Country in everyone's self-interest?

Here's the thing, though. It is in the majority's self-interest for the Government to confiscate all wealth and provide everyone everything equally, is it not? Is that any way to run a Country, though? Of course not. So, there is a vast expanse of middle ground there. It's not really so much a question of whose interests are you voting for, but what is the proper role of government. That is the question that some ask, but there isn't ever any real discussion about it. It could end up requiring a re-write/replacement of the Constitution.

Neither party is calling for the confiscation of all wealth and equal distribution of everything equally. Neither party is calling for completely free market economics. Both parties get accused of one or the other. Both parties want the same end results. They differ in how to get there.

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 9:49:04 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Curious... I know many who vote based upon just one issue. Such as women issues.... or the economy... or employment....

The term single-issue voter has been used to describe people who may make voting decisions based on the candidates' stance on a single issue (e.g. "pro-life" or "pro-choice", support for gun rights or gun-control)...


I guess I don't get your point, then. How can a single issue voter be voting against their interests? They only have the one interest.

Pam



You were the one who said voters vote for more than one issue. Which isnt always true.

Hypocrisy comes in many forms. It can be public.... or private. It can be financial, or emotional.

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 3:59:59 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

That greater good is what is needed to get this country back on its feet.


Says who? And who defines, "what is needed?"

The values you understand are not automatically those that matter to others, Tazzy.

I'll refer you to, The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, by Jonathan Haidt, because I have no interest in seeing your definitions of what matters to people you can't relate to.

Have a lovely night.






Tazzy is right, and I have said the same on here more times than I can remember. If you wish to balance the books you have to increase revenue (taxes) and decrease defecit (spend less). To make that work is in everyones interest, not just the right or left.



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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 4:07:56 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Some people will always vote for one party no matter what they campaign on. Over here many on the left wont ever vote Tory and many on the right wont ever vote Labour, no ideals but just because. Some people vote on one or more issues, some vote on a candidates track record, even if they like the party he is standing for.

I tend to vote Tory since I agree with more of their policies. The current lot wont get my vote again though due to the crass policies on where they are making the cuts.

I am sure Cameron loves papers like the Mail, with scaremongering stories about left wing scroungers, but never mentioning those on the right who would never vote Labour but are still happy to collect benefits of one sort or another. It kind of makes it an "Its not me guv, its them lefties" issue. Its bogus, its transparent and its bullshit.

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 4:18:17 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Curious... I know many who vote based upon just one issue. Such as women issues.... or the economy... or employment....

The term single-issue voter has been used to describe people who may make voting decisions based on the candidates' stance on a single issue (e.g. "pro-life" or "pro-choice", support for gun rights or gun-control)...


I guess I don't get your point, then. How can a single issue voter be voting against their interests? They only have the one interest.

Pam


No,they have only the one interest that they "care" about,perhaps above all the others....but believe me single issue voters still have other interests.
I would think it highly unlikely that there is any one interest voter walking around

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 5:21:09 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

No,they have only the one interest that they "care" about,perhaps above all the others....but believe me single issue voters still have other interests.
I would think it highly unlikely that there is any one interest voter walking around


I think its more of a case of that vote going to the one who best defends that issue that means the most to you... as in abortions, gun rights, taxes...

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 5:55:33 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

No,they have only the one interest that they "care" about,perhaps above all the others....but believe me single issue voters still have other interests.
I would think it highly unlikely that there is any one interest voter walking around


I think its more of a case of that vote going to the one who best defends that issue that means the most to you... as in abortions, gun rights, taxes...

Totally agreed Tazzy...but single issue voters do not equate to single interest.
Pam had suggested that a single issue voter could not,by definition vote against their interests as they only have the one"interest".
That is just flat wrong,a single issue voter might in fact vote against their larger best interests in pursuit of the one issue.
Hell,it is far more likely a single issue voter would wind up cutting his nose to spite his face,his single issue is more likely to blind him to his broader needs and requirements,.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 5:57:47 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		lol... i know where you wanna go.. lol... and Im glad you arent going there. But I also agree.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 5:59:14 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Tazzy is right, and I have said the same on here more times than I can remember. If you wish to balance the books you have to increase revenue (taxes) and decrease defecit (spend less). To make that work is in everyones interest, not just the right or left.




Well, Polite, it's just lovely to hear that you are on the same page with Tazzy, and proclaiming that your shared opinion of an extremely subjective matter is the correct one, but who exactly determines that "the good of the country" is something voters measure in strictly financial terms?

DesideriScuri noted that even if the goal of both sides is precisely the same, the methodologies are going to vary. The belief in which approach is going to be correct will be a reflection of the ideals and values of the individual.

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 9:35:27 PM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Some people will always vote for one party no matter what they campaign on. Over here many on the left wont ever vote Tory and many on the right wont ever vote Labour, no ideals but just because. Some people vote on one or more issues, some vote on a candidates track record, even if they like the party he is standing for.



And many tend to vote for whoever they are told to by our media and 'friends' of 'aspiring' politicians such as Rupert Murdoch.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I tend to vote Tory since I agree with more of their policies. The current lot wont get my vote again though due to the crass policies on where they are making the cuts.



It's okay, I won't rub it in.

Well... tick tock

But to be fair let's hope the Tories learn from past Labour mistakes and give Boris Johnson some role in national politics. He's a brilliant politician and he erm.. um.. makes the Tories seem quite acceptable.

I vote Labour or Green... I'm a fully paid up member of the Labour Party. My local party is infested with New Labour types, which I suppose gives me two parties for the price of one, saving me on membership of the Conservative Party.

I think the problem is here is that people pay too much attention to what the media tell them and so it's become a matter of style over substance (just in case anyone thought we elected Thatcher or Blair three times because we're a nation of masochists).

I also personally believe that both Labour and Conservative are outdated in their present form and need to split along their internal divisions and become at least four new parties. I think this alone would benefit not just the new parties but also the country as it would change our politics enough to give some of the smaller parties a bit more of a platform.

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 11:24:44 PM   
calamitysandra


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I would say it is more a matter of voting for self-interest and ideals or immediate gratification.

If I am voting for my ideals, I am also voting in self interest, as I am voting to create the society I want to life in.

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/12/2012 11:31:23 PM   
metamorfosis


Posts: 1132
Status: offline 		Maybe I wasn't clear.

I know there are such things as single issue voters.
I know single issue voters are in all likelihood "interested" in more issues than the one that decides their vote.

What I was trying to say is that those voters can't be described as hypocritical because they've made it perfectly clear why they're casting their vote. For the purposes of this thread, they don't count.

And for the other voters, the ones that consider multiple issues, it may be that they choose the candidate or party that represents the best fit for their beliefs and ideals, rather than a perfect match. Which is why I don't find it hypocritical of Reagan's family (for example) to support stem cell research and still vote Republican.

Pam


< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 12/12/2012 11:34:20 PM >

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/13/2012 5:56:11 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well, Polite, it's just lovely to hear that you are on the same page with Tazzy, and proclaiming that your shared opinion of an extremely subjective matter is the correct one, but who exactly determines that "the good of the country" is something voters measure in strictly financial terms?

DesideriScuri noted that even if the goal of both sides is precisely the same, the methodologies are going to vary. The belief in which approach is going to be correct will be a reflection of the ideals and values of the individual.


Hey Rich, think on this. I also voted for a right wing government who did exactly that. So you can stuff your snide remarks about Tazzy and I where the sun doesnt shine.

Whats good for the country usually is due to finance, any moron can see that. The better the financial stability the better the nation can pay for its needs as a whole.

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/13/2012 6:01:32 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

FR

I would say it is more a matter of voting for self-interest and ideals or immediate gratification.

If I am voting for my ideals, I am also voting in self interest, as I am voting to create the society I want to life in.


Yeah... this pretty much.

I don't see a distinction between ideals and self interest. I believe, very selfishly, that a fairer society will be a good thing for me.

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/13/2012 6:26:44 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
I don't see a distinction between ideals and self interest. I believe, very selfishly, that a fairer society will be a good thing for me.


A fairer society would be better for everyone. More egalitarian societies, according to the OECD, have less social prolems, ie. less drug use, less alcohol abuse, less domestic violence etc. less mental and physical health problems, better education standards and are more productive.

I'm just waiting for some jackass to mention socialism, communism and the USSR or N Korea, of which aren't members of the OECD. Basically the conclusion is that social democracy, the type or socio-economics we left behind when the rightwing nutjobs gained power in the 80s, is far better than what we have now.

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/13/2012 8:15:18 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Over here many on the left wont ever vote Tory and many on the right wont ever vote Labour, no ideals but just because.


Identity politics are a major issue in general, and sort of defeats the purpose of representation.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

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We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/13/2012 10:58:14 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Over here many on the left wont ever vote Tory and many on the right wont ever vote Labour, no ideals but just because.


Identity politics are a major issue in general, and sort of defeats the purpose of representation.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Arent they just. I have lost count of the number of staunch Tories I know, moaning about child benefit cuts.

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RE: Voting. Ideals, or self-interest? - 12/14/2012 11:30:18 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Some people will always vote for one party no matter what they campaign on. Over here many on the left wont ever vote Tory and many on the right wont ever vote Labour, no ideals but just because. Some people vote on one or more issues, some vote on a candidates track record, even if they like the party he is standing for.

I would like to suggest that voting is motivated by emotional and tribal allegences that we all feel, and that is the reason why some people may seem to be voting against self-interest. What I am suggesting is that voting is not a rational activity in which we choose between competing programs and promises. Instead, we identify to an ideology no matter how murky or ill-defined it may be as a way of belonging to a group. We seek validation from our peers and from the media we select to tune into to. You can see this at play in the antagonism between politically committed people on this Forum. We chose the Party and Leader who gives us identity comfort and rationalize afterwords with bumper sticker slogans. That's what I think, but hey . . . maybe not so much

ETA: Oops. Looking above I see that Aswad beat me to it. Identity politics. I take that as a label for what I was trying to say.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/14/2012 11:34:26 AM >

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