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Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 9:21:24 AM

ChrisKNJ

Posts: 10
Joined: 4/18/2007
Status: offline

One of my observations, after spending some time on this board and others, is that there seems to be a reliance and adherence to a framework of rules and etiquette. I have read debates on some of these rules and I have seen many, many people come down harshly on others due to some infraction or oversight.
I happen to work in the business arena and I pay special attention to the difference between managers and leaders. Leaders have a vision and know exactly where they can break rules. They know that sometimes they can color outside of the lines. It is a risk they take, but part if being skilled at that role is taking calculated risks. Managers on the other hand work within a framework of rules. They get results, but to be sure they are bound by staying inside that framework.

It is my own belief (not shared I assure you) that leaders are more effective at what they do. This includes those aspects of being a Dominant. Soooo, where am I going with this?

I don’t know why I am bothered by the concept of “rules” within what is arguably a departure from the “norm”. In this case, norm meaning a vanilla lifestyle.
I accept that some of the rules are designed for safety. Some are designed to protect and maintain a modicum of order or structure. Maybe I’m just a bit tired of people who react disproportionately to a perceived infraction of these rules. My own thought is that if you don’t like somebody’s interpretation or adherence to rules, move along.

Does relying on and strictly enforcing a set of rules negate true submission? Especially when that “enforcement” is coming from the submissive side.

Post #: 1

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 10:15:49 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

I actually find it kind of funny that this was moved from where it was originally posted.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. You were right in saying it wasn't necessarily going to be shared. The opposite view is that you honestly don't control anyone here and folks are going to post exactly the way that they want, as long as they remain within ToS and the forum guidelines. That includes things like telling folks that their personal ad doesn't belong on the forums or that their post doesn't have anything to do with "General BDSM Discussion". When people do so, it doesn't have squat to do with Dominance and submission. I know that I don't attempt to dominate every person who posts here. I certainly wouldn't expect all of the submissives to 'submit' to every poster here by not speaking up.

Rather than your interpretation of managers and leaders, I prefer the concept of authority. In other words, unless a Mod tells Me that I can't post the comments that I want to, I think I'll stick to the way I do it. Other members opinions aren't going to dictate My actions.

That's Dominance.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)

Post #: 2

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 10:30:57 AM

ChrisKNJ

Posts: 10
Joined: 4/18/2007
Status: offline

I'm not sure I understand.

My post was intended to ask a question and I prefaced that question with my own understanding (or opinion).

My question was related to how rules and etiquette impact a submissive role.

How is that off-topic?

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 3

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 10:44:54 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Mods are goofy sometimes, this is a better question than.most

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)

Post #: 4

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 10:50:27 AM

VideoAdminTheta

Posts: 3967
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline

This was my mistake. I missed one sentence that changed the whole perception of the post to me. I will move it back to General, but don't want anyone to lose their post if they are creating one. So I will wait a few and hope that will help.

I am sorry.

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)

Post #: 5

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 10:52:33 AM

VideoAdminTheta

Posts: 3967
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Mods are goofy sometimes, this is a better question than.most

Yes, especially when busy yanking and moving many things, one right after the other, trying to clear some things that really did need attention.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 6

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 10:58:02 AM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisKNJ

Does relying on and strictly enforcing a set of rules negate true submission? Especially when that “enforcement” is coming from the submissive side.

Just because someone is submissive in their relationship does not mean they are submissive to everyone else in the world. I enforce rules and make decisions all day long. That doesn't change how I relate to Himself.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)

Post #: 7

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 11:15:35 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Can you give us a few examples of the sorts you are refering to.

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)

Post #: 8

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 11:16:52 AM

AthenaSurrenders

Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisKNJ

Does relying on and strictly enforcing a set of rules negate true submission? Especially when that “enforcement” is coming from the submissive side.

I'm not sure I fully understand. Why would it negate submission? If I follow the rules on this site, or the rules of the road whilst driving, or the rules of the casino while playing blackjack, it impacts in no way on my submission.

I'm actually a fan of rules. Rules are what keeps some sort of order. The rules on this forum, for example, try to stop us getting flooded with repeats of the personal ads on the other side. They try to stop people making personal attacks to avoid people being put off from discussing things. They try to keep threads organised into broad categories to help people take part in the types of discussion they are interested in. They aren't foolproof (fools can be so ingenious) but they do help make the boards workable. So I see no reason to take issue with them. It's an internet message board. We don't need a visionary leader.

I agree that in a general sense, progress sometimes requires 'colouring outside the lines' but I also think of joining a message board as joining a club. If I were to join a new social group, I would hang back and figure out the written and unwritten rules that they follow. If they didn't suit me or I couldn't broadly accept them, I would move on and find or start another group. It seems that most of the people round here that get scolded for breaking rules have just dived right in without reading or giving any thought to the way the culture works here. I wonder do these people behave like this when you meet them in person. Then there are those who stamp their feet when called out on anything. It's kinda like joining the parish coffee mornings, making sexual jokes and then yelling 'It's a free country!' when they ask you to stop.

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)

Post #: 9

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 11:23:28 AM

TNDommeK

Posts: 7153
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline

I think I was thinking the same thing Lady Pact was saying, as far as the question. I thought the OP was referring to responses and such as well.

_____________________________

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The working Fin Domme
Professional con artist, swindler, trixster, extortionist

Our snark-nado needs more cowbell

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)

Post #: 10

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 11:24:06 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisKNJ
Does relying on and strictly enforcing a set of rules negate true submission? Especially when that “enforcement” is coming from the submissive side.

Huh? Honestly I have no idea what you are asking but I'll do what I can with this one.

Point #1) Who, exactly, is it that you think is bound by these rules? I can guarantee you that the folks I think of as actually dominant are not. I break a handful of the "BDSM rules" with Carol -- including at least two sacred cows -- and I sleep at night just fine. I suspect other dominant personalities see it about the same.

Point #2) I have no idea what you mean when you say "submission" (the true kind or any other kind) but when I use that word it isn't something that can "be negated". When I refer to myself as dominant over Carol I'm talking about how our two personalities engage with each other at a very basic level. I'm not referring to some agreement that's been made nor am I referring to any conscious decision. Carol being submissive to me cannot be "negated"... not by her and not by me (without positing some truly radical changes to one or the other of our personalities). No "rules" could bind our D/s dynamic because it happens at a layer well below the highly intellectual layer that "rules" happen at. Even if Carol and I both wanted some rule it would be ineffective.

So Chris... what rules are you talking about exactly? Can you give a specific example? Who's making these rules? Who's enforcing them? How the heck are they doing that?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)

Post #: 11

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 11:32:51 AM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

I agree that in a general sense, progress sometimes requires 'colouring outside the lines' but I also think of joining a message board as joining a club. If I were to join a new social group, I would hang back and figure out the written and unwritten rules that they follow. If they didn't suit me or I couldn't broadly accept them, I would move on and find or start another group. It seems that most of the people round here that get scolded for breaking rules have just dived right in without reading or giving any thought to the way the culture works here. I wonder do these people behave like this when you meet them in person. Then there are those who stamp their feet when called out on anything. It's kinda like joining the parish coffee mornings, making sexual jokes and then yelling 'It's a free country!' when they ask you to stop.

I often wonder that too. I watch people post things that they would never say if they walked into a room full of people or up to someone on the street.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)

Post #: 12

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 11:44:14 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
I often wonder that too. I watch people post things that they would never say if they walked into a room full of people or up to someone on the street.

Oh bloody hell! Don't tell me that what we're talking about here is the poor oppressed dominants being run rough-shod over by all you fake subs? Man, if that's the question I would've had an entirely different answer.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 13

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 11:46:01 AM

Inghammar

Posts: 145
Joined: 11/25/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisKNJ

One of my observations, after spending some time on this board and others, is that there seems to be a reliance and adherence to a framework of rules and etiquette. I have read debates on some of these rules and I have seen many, many people come down harshly on others due to some infraction or oversight.
I happen to work in the business arena and I pay special attention to the difference between managers and leaders. Leaders have a vision and know exactly where they can break rules. They know that sometimes they can color outside of the lines. It is a risk they take, but part if being skilled at that role is taking calculated risks. Managers on the other hand work within a framework of rules. They get results, but to be sure they are bound by staying inside that framework.

It is my own belief (not shared I assure you) that leaders are more effective at what they do. This includes those aspects of being a Dominant. Soooo, where am I going with this?

I don’t know why I am bothered by the concept of “rules” within what is arguably a departure from the “norm”. In this case, norm meaning a vanilla lifestyle.
I accept that some of the rules are designed for safety. Some are designed to protect and maintain a modicum of order or structure. Maybe I’m just a bit tired of people who react disproportionately to a perceived infraction of these rules. My own thought is that if you don’t like somebody’s interpretation or adherence to rules, move along.

Does relying on and strictly enforcing a set of rules negate true submission? Especially when that “enforcement” is coming from the submissive side.

quote:

etween managers and leaders. Leaders have a vision and know exactly where they can break rules. They know that sometimes they can color outside of the lines. It is a risk they take, but part if being skilled at that role is taking calculated risks. Managers on the other hand work within a framework of rules. They get results, but to be sure they

I am not following you here. I don't believe that a dominant is better at what a submissive does and so is therefore - promoted to being a dominant. These are roles that are fostered since birth with most people. It would be like promoting a dog to a cat or vice-versa.

Rules in the context of this discussion are arbitrary constructs that place artificial limits on another person's behavior. Don't wear green on Tuesday, don't use the letter 'E' et hoc genus omne. Sometimes these rules are near impossible or the submissive fails intentionally in order to receive a consequence (it's crazy I know but it happens!) As far as 'reacting disproportionately' when the rules are broken - I would hope that within the dominant / submissive dynamic there's an agreed upon limit to these consequences, whatever they may be.

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)

Post #: 14

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 11:52:48 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

I am just tempted to look and see if the OP resides in Colorado or Washington state....

As for the topic......I think. I suck at colouring within the lines. Especially when I find the lines restrictive or stupid.

I don't believe that I am better at any given thing, just because I am a dominant personality. There are any large number of things that I am very certain, I could find a submissive person, that would be much better at.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Inghammar)

Post #: 15

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 11:58:05 AM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
I often wonder that too. I watch people post things that they would never say if they walked into a room full of people or up to someone on the street.

Oh bloody hell! Don't tell me that what we're talking about here is the poor oppressed dominants being run rough-shod over by all you fake subs? Man, if that's the question I would've had an entirely different answer.

That's the way it looks. That clearly allowing submissives to call out people that behave poorly or go against ToS means that we're not really submissive.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 16

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 11:59:36 AM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

Regarding the OP. I tend to do my own thing. Sometimes it gets me in trouble.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 17

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 12:04:07 PM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

I have no idea if your stated premise is in regards to forums, or ds so I will choose to apply it to everything.

Rules are what keeps things in general order. I mean.. I could drive on the left side of the street but that might interfere with someone who chooses to go with the flow of traffic. We have rules for a reason. The rules of the forum attempt to maintain order so that the reset of us may ride down the path we want to travel. For instance I would never visit gor, and am rarely popping in to read the mistress forum. Rules within a DS relationship are what ever the involved parties agree upon. If I as a submissive expected to live within a set of guidelines and my mate one day said "from now on you are to agree to become poly", well, I would have to leave because those rules that we originally agreed upon were invalid. Yu are correct in stating it is wise to move on. BUT, I disagree with the implication you make to do it without discussion. If such a thing happened you better believe I would be speaking up before making my exit.

As for your last point, can you clarify? I fail to see what submission has to do with the forum, and I cannot for the life of me understand why breaking an understood framework in a ds relationship would negate submission. I am submissive. That does not change. What does change is WHO I am submissive to at any given time. If my mate for instance decided we were going to become poly, he could not longer count on my being submissive to him.

And for the record even though I am submissive I have never colored within the lines. I draw my own life. I follow my own rules of the rules given by the man with whom I share my time. I CHOOSE to abide by the rules of the land within my own framework and sensibility.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisKNJ

One of my observations, after spending some time on this board and others, is that there seems to be a reliance and adherence to a framework of rules and etiquette.

It is my own belief (not shared I assure you) that leaders are more effective at what they do. This includes those aspects of being a Dominant. Soooo, where am I going with this?

I don’t know why I am bothered by the concept of “rules” within what is arguably a departure from the “norm”. In this case, norm meaning a vanilla lifestyle.

I accept that some of the rules are designed for safety. Some are designed to protect and maintain a modicum of order or structure. My own thought is that if you don’t like somebody’s interpretation or adherence to rules, move along.

Does relying on and strictly enforcing a set of rules negate true submission? Especially when that “enforcement” is coming from the submissive side.

< Message edited by Missokyst -- 12/13/2012 12:07:19 PM >

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to ChrisKNJ)

Post #: 18

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 12:06:02 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

I love rules, if they didnt exist, I would have to find something else to violate.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 19

RE: Coloring outside the lines... - 12/13/2012 12:11:24 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
That's the way it looks. That clearly allowing submissives to call out people that behave poorly or go against ToS means that we're not really submissive.

I interpreted this very differently... something along the lines of "Generic internet wisdom BDSM rules shouldn't be allowed to conflict with a specific interpersonal relationship". Even that interpretation wasn't exactly a smart question but it makes more sense than a whine about dominants being oppressed by subs.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 20

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