RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 2:51:09 AM)

came4u, there was some information posted on the weapons used by the cartels that were seized by the Mexican authorities,

A very small percentage were traceable back to the United States.

Most of the weapons are military weapons from other central and south American countries and there is a possible connection to a couple of terrorist groups that may be supplying weapons and training.



Aswad -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 2:56:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Gee in the suburbs of paris france they found a bomb factory. Could happen here.


Yeah, yanno, Norway has already restricted AN and is banning acetone and hydrogen peroxide now.

I think that's ludicrous, considering that the previous availability of the latter two has averted two acts of domestic terrorism so far, as acetone peroxide has this lovely property of being more likely to blow up terrorists than their targets. Similarly, ammonium nitrate being a tertiary explosive leads to most domestic terrorists using a secondary that is too small to effect a high order detonation (the bomb in Oslo was low order, hence the low death count). Making it more difficult to make bombs just forces people intent on making them to acquire more skills, more knowledge and better habits, resulting in a much higher probability of success on their part, and a lower probability of getting caught. Anyone can read up on it and use household goods you just can't ban to synthesize more reliable explosives without using anything traceable to make that.

I very much prefer to make sure we don't incentivize domestic terrorists to actually learn their craft or get creative.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



came4U -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 3:01:28 AM)

quote:

A very small percentage were traceable back to the United States.


I don't know about you but 2,500 weapons (not incuding rounds) is not a 'small percentage'. Especially when a government who puts weapons in the hands of others wants to remove them from the sane citizens who pay their salaries. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/president-obama-falsely-claims-fast-and-furious-program-begun-under-the-previous-administration/

It is yet unknown how many more thousands are not yet accounted for because their trace is 'incaculable'.

Funny how they want to give drug dealers high grade weaponry, yet don't trust their own people with the same.

*and Aswad, hehe, I don't think such 'recipes' are legal to mention, here or elsewhere. :P



Aswad -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 3:07:17 AM)

Sweden, Denmark and Norway are apples to apples, to the point where we could be one country. That order is descending murder rate and ascending median equivalized disposable household income at purchase parity power, but there's no correlation to gun ownership per capita, which is highest in Norway and lowest in Denmark.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



Aswad -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 3:10:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

*and Aswad, hehe, I don't think such 'recipes' are legal to mention, here or elsewhere. :P


To the best of my knowledge, I've never posted a recipe anyone could successfully follow.

Also to the best of my knowledge, it wouldn't be illegal to actually do so, though.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



came4U -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 3:12:59 AM)

haha yes, I know you didn't, just sayin' that (different topic) it may be a good thing (can't believe I am saying this) that if one were to Google such topic or check it out at the library a lil too often--it would be red flagged by the Gods in blue. (or men in black).



Owner59 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 3:16:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I heard a reference on the radio saying that the Bushmaster was found in the trunk of the car, and was never used. If that is correct (initial facts are still confused, I think), do you think that will delay for a moment efforts to claim this a tragedy that could have prevented, if only the assault rifle ban had been renewed?



Certainly won`t prevent the rightist fantasy/alt-reality dicks from making shit up that doesn`t happen.......


This shit is not normal and until the lunatic fringe/NRA types stop trying to make this shit the norm........desensitizing us to the violence,making us indifferent to the loss of loved ones,selling the crazy proposition that this crap is just a part of life(it`s not) and the cost of doing business........ we`ll never have an honest discussion.

The NRA dicks (not to be confused with normal folks who favor reasonable gun regs) seem to trying to arm as many angry,unstable,self-made-victim, selfish adult children(and kids too for that matter) as possible.

All the while trying to weaken the hard fought for and dearly payed for(in blood) reasonable gun laws we have on the books.



meatcleaver -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 3:28:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

In Europe different countries have diferent laws and the statistics clearly illustrate, the more liberal the gun laws, the more gun crime and gun deaths there are and the more liberal the laws, the more innocent victims of gun crime there are.


Actually, if memory serves, the European countries with the most restrictive gun laws have more gun violence than those with the least restrictive gun laws. Or maybe it was gun ownership rates, I can't recall. In any case, the main reason we have less gun related violence happens to be that we're not as soaked in fear as the US, and also happen to have a pretty damn prosperous population by comparison. I haven't checked, but I wouldn't be surprised to find a strong inverse correlation between median income and violence.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



Actual deaths from gun crime

Gun ownership doesn't completely correlate with gun crime that is true, one has to introduce socio-economic problems and culture into the equation but the USA is way out in front in the western world.

Homicide Rate Homicide Rate Robberies

United States 5.70 3.72 232

Canada 2.16 0.76 101

England 1.41 0.11 116

Switzerland 1.32 0.58 36(a)

Average: 1.38 0.47 48



Kirata -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 3:29:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

This shit is not normal and until the lunatic fringe/NRA types stop trying to make this shit the norm........desensitizing us to the violence,making us indifferent to the loss of loved ones,selling the crazy proposition that this crap is just a part of life(it`s not) and the cost of doing business........ we`ll never have an honest discussion.

Well, once your handy-handy pocket-sized Homicidal Nut Detector gets to market (available in 6 different colors) we won't have a problem. But in the meantime, besides calling people who don't share your views a bunch of "nuts" and "dicks" and making up shit about them, do you have a non-totalitarian solution to offer in the spirit of "honest discussion"?

K.



Aswad -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 3:37:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

haha yes, I know you didn't, just sayin' that (different topic) it may be a good thing (can't believe I am saying this) that if one were to Google such topic or check it out at the library a lil too often--it would be red flagged by the Gods in blue. (or men in black).


Knowledge is power. Some people are comfortable with trying to strip away power in all its forms to prevent its abuse. I'm not one of them.

And, no, I don't consider it a good thing that the land of the free became a prison.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



came4U -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 3:37:23 AM)

Cigarettes, Alcohol and Vehicles kill more people than guns, yet these things aren't banned, despite being just chock full of toxic and deadly (instantaneously or not) effects (not only the user/absuer of).

How many instances of insanity have we seen from someone drunk as a skunk or driving badly/irresponsibly? Incalcuable.

Because a vehicle usually only kills 1-7 persons at a time, smoke (and second hand smoke) takes years and years to propose as a 'possible' cause of death and Alchohol may cause death fast or slow (slowly to the one who uses it, quicker to those who are victims of). Guns, on the other hand make people jump when they hear a 'bang' and cause a multitude of havoc-causing effects? What is the difference really? Dead is dead, slow or fast.

When will people realize that unless a death is 'of natural causes' that something from a use or abuse or not taking care of oneself and one another IS the root cause--and the object of the ritual of causing that death is merely a factor of the entire circular notion in that people must learn to be responsible enough to be HUMAN. Which includes being mindful and esteemed enough to be healthy mentally, emotionally and physically (because healthy = survivial ) in every detail of our OWN lives--not a group white guys in tailor made suits telling us how life is and how we should live it.

Especially when those very people who want to be the charge of the rest of us...sit at a desk while percolating/allocating funds, energy and manpower for weapons of even bigger killing capacity to other countries under the guise of 'democracy'. Who are these people (oops bullies, not people) to tell gun owers that 'just in case a few of you are nuts--you shouldn't be allowed to have metal objects such as this). Since when would anyone of sound mind and body allow a lunatic to be in charge of the asylum?



Owner59 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 3:37:41 AM)

40% percent of gun sales do NOT have background checks....... funny-man.

Again....until the NRA fucktard narratives are pushed out of the discussion.......we won`t have an honest discussion.


I know you NRA types think it`s settled......that the 2nd Amendment says anyone can have any gun anywhere......but it doesn`t and it isn`t.


Even the 2nd Amendment can be amended.....I only pray that as few precious children as possible are lost in the long,ugly process.



Aswad -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 4:00:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Gun ownership doesn't completely correlate with gun crime that is true, one has to introduce socio-economic problems and culture into the equation but the USA is way out in front in the western world.


Norway ranks 11th worldwide for gun ownership per capita, at about 40% of the rates in the USA. If you stick to only weapons that are actually in use, rather than just functional pieces of history, we have as many guns as the USA per capita, and yet we have virtually no homicides and virtually none of them are done with firearms.

Apples to apples, gun ownership rates are not predictors of violence, but median income is.

Rational management is about predictors, not unfounded speculation.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



came4U -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 4:01:12 AM)

In trying to be rational why aren't more people agasp in knowing that this person first committed matricide. Why is his mental status of lesser value in discussion than the 'object in his hand'? What kind of person kills their own mother? What occured to create someone who does these sort of things? How does this person wander through and within society so ghostly as to not bring notice of his mental health? Are we that immune to crazy people? Is this guy just THAT darn clever? I doubt it.

but no, instead lets blame the NRA, the gun not the slinger.

The NRA is just a group, a group of society members who have an agenda which may or may not be legitimatly good for a nation but they are a group that have the right to speak and aquire members by any legal means necessary. They ensure this by having the donations they have to fight longstanding and expensive legal battles at constitutional level.

When and if the day comes that the NRA disbands totally, we will find ourselves unarmed. Oh except for the few, ....

criminals
the insane
the governement

so the question you have to ask yourself is....which side do you trust and which will you pick to be on your side and make fast friends with? *and with friends like this---you better be a daaayum good friend ;) or else.



meatcleaver -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 4:05:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Gun ownership doesn't completely correlate with gun crime that is true, one has to introduce socio-economic problems and culture into the equation but the USA is way out in front in the western world.


Norway ranks 11th worldwide for gun ownership per capita, at about 40% of the rates in the USA. If you stick to only weapons that are actually in use, rather than just functional pieces of history, we have as many guns as the USA per capita, and yet we have virtually no homicides and virtually none of them are done with firearms.

Apples to apples, gun ownership rates are not predictors of violence, but median income is.

Rational management is about predictors, not unfounded speculation.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Norway is a large wealthy country with a small relatively homgenous population, it just doesn't have the socio-economic problems and mix larger countries have. I'm not saying there aren't social problems, there obviously are but you aren't comparing apples to apples here.



rawotk -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 4:07:56 AM)

Gun control, my balls. If any one of the adults would have had a fucking gun, for chrissakes, at that or any other incident like it... At least the people would have had a damned chance. Sigh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2YC5cVxTcQ



rawotk -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 4:11:36 AM)

I am so disgusted by morons who whine about more gun laws. It doesn't work in a country like ours, period. That has been proven time and time and time again. Gun laws = More gun violence. Period. Advocating for gun control puts blood on ones hands. It is that simple.

Everyone loves to talk and whine but I've been around to see what the fuck is real. I wouldn't be alive today if I had not owned a firearm. Many people at all of these massacres would still be with us, today, if everyone wasn't being taught "Um, guns are bad, uhhhhh"

Jesus christ what has this country come to [:@]

Here you go, if you're a moron (proponent of US gun control)-- here's your answer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7pGt_O1uM8



meatcleaver -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 4:15:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rawotk

Gun control, my balls. If any one of the adults would have had a fucking gun, for chrissakes, at that or any other incident like it... At least the people would have had a damned chance. Sigh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2YC5cVxTcQ



OK Everyone can just wring their hands hang around until the next masacre, which seems to be the habit forming.



rawotk -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 4:22:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: rawotk

Gun control, my balls. If any one of the adults would have had a fucking gun, for chrissakes, at that or any other incident like it... At least the people would have had a damned chance. Sigh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2YC5cVxTcQ



OK Everyone can just wring their hands hang around until the next masacre, which seems to be the habit forming.



We can expect more and more and more so long as these clowns know that they can go into a "kill at will" situation. And the government will keep teaching us to be more and more passive. More people will scream for more gun control. Guns will be more and more available on the streets as we pass more laws.

It's just like the war on drugs and prohibition. All over again. Only in 2012 we have the ignorant masses who are too stupid to screw in a light bulb. They're taught what to think and who to be and they love it that way. They have no idea of what the government did today but if you ask their ridiculous ass about some stupid video game or sporting event right away they know all about it UM LIKE YEAH I PLAED MA X CUBE ALL DAY TOODAY AND DA STEALERS KICKED A GOAL DUHHHHH


Don't get me started

Jesus it's sickening



rawotk -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 4:25:51 AM)

Ah, anyway.. I don't usually post in forums or talk to anyone... I know my views are extreme for normal people to deal with and I don't mean to offend anyone, I suppose. I am just very passionate about being against what a stupid clusterfuck of idiocy my country has become. My grandfather told me all about his brother being killed for us and there are countless others who died for us... and what do the masses do with it?! THIS that we have in 2012 ... it's unreal



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