RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other.

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 7:39:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl And I will ask again, why do you need a semi assault rifle? Why would anyone need a magazine that allowed someone to shoot off hundreds of rounds within 8 short minutes? Btw, the victims were found in 2 rooms. So, yeah, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. You seem to have missed the point. This man did not use an assault rifle. He used two pistols. Cho Seung-Hui used a Glock 9mm and a 22 at Virginia tech and killed 33 people. The Columbine shooters used a 9mm pistol, a 9mm rifle and two shotguns. All the weapons were legally purchased but one in all three incidents. As far as your "hundreds of rounds" statement, the authorities have not released the information on how many rounds were fired. And as I tried to point out, it was not a high rate of fire that was used here. Why do I need an assault rifle? I am a survivalist. I firmly believe that this country, indeed the whole of human civilization is going to collapse. Am I proficient with the three I have, yes. Am I an expert with them, probably not. My preferred style of shooting is using a bolt action rifle with a five round magazine from long range. I was a sniper in the army and I still practice those skills I learned at least 3 times a week. To put it bluntly, I do not need a 15 or 30 round magazine to obtain a high body count. Give me a good position, a supply of ammo and five rounds at a time I am going to turn a large area into a kill zone. It wont be done in 8 minutes, but then most shootings are not done like that. Most of the victims at Virginia Tech were killed over a 10 to 15 minute period, and in this case, he had MULTIPLE 10 and 15 round magazines. In the shooting in Arizona where Congresswoman Giffords was shot, he used one 9mm handgun and a MODIFIED magazine to hold a high number of rounds. I explained in step by step detail how to prevent stuff like this from happening again, and I was not being sarcastic, I was deadly serious. Innocent people getting killed by guns became inevitable when the Chinese invented gun powder in the 9th century.

Yachtie -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 7:48:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl And I will ask again, why do you need a semi assault rifle? Why would anyone need a magazine that allowed someone to shoot off hundreds of rounds within 8 short minutes? Banning both would not solve any problem. Do you know what an M1 carbine could do? A .44mag lever action? Do you know just how fast one can fire one of them? Reload? Therefore pointing to one weapon, like a semi-auto AR/15 for instance, as the evil assault weapon and asking why would anyone need one, and as banning such would solve nothing, on what basis do you point at it? All I can fathom is, emotion.

Inghammar -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 7:50:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rawotk Gun control, my balls. If any one of the adults would have had a fucking gun, for chrissakes, at that or any other incident like it... At least the people would have had a damned chance. Sigh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2YC5cVxTcQ One did. She owned several, in fact. Her son used them to kill her, her colleagues, and 20 children.

LaTigresse -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 7:51:10 AM)
An excerpt from an opinion piece by Charles Blow in the NYT this morning...it reflects my opinion 100%. As well as that of the former military person I live with. "An analysis published earlier this year by Mother Jones of the 61 mass shootings in America over the last 30 years found that: “Of the 139 guns possessed by the killers, more than three-quarters were obtained legally.” (The Oregon shooter stole his gun. The Connecticut shooter’s guns are reported to have been legally purchased in his mother’s name.) We must reinstate the assault weapons ban. Military-style guns belong in the hands of military personnel, and maybe police officers, but not in the hands of civilians. A vast majority of mass shootings in the last three decades involved assault weapons and semiautomatic handguns, according to Mother Jones. Even if you believe, as most Americans do, that the Second Amendment grants Americans the right to bear arms, one must also acknowledge the right of other Americans to not bear arms and be safe. Where are the voices for those who choose not to — or are not old enough to — own guns? Are the gunless to have no advocate? Will our politicians forever cower before the gun lobby?"

Yachtie -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 7:52:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Inghammar quote: ORIGINAL: rawotk Gun control, my balls. If any one of the adults would have had a fucking gun, for chrissakes, at that or any other incident like it... At least the people would have had a damned chance. Sigh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2YC5cVxTcQ One did. She owned several, in fact. Her son used them to kill her, her colleagues, and 20 children. Way to argue the point. Sheesh.[8\|]

Edwynn -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 7:55:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 I own sporting weapons and some collectables. There is one weapon that I have been trying to get in my collection for a number of years, a Soviet Era Dragunov sniper rifle. They are illegal to import into the United States and have been for a number of years. The only ones legally allowed to be sold in the United States are those that got here before the ban. Recently, at a gun show I was told that I could buy one, but the price was 3 times the market price, which to me indicated the weapon would be illegal. The point, anyone can get a gun at any time, anyplace for the right price. By 'market price' we are then to assume that you know personally of some others who recently bought this illegal weapon at putative 'market price'? so as to establish this market price? You already stated outright that the gun is illegal to begin with, then claim that someone asking three times your proposed market price "to me indicated that the weapon would be illegal." It's amazing how much you take yourself by surprise, sometimes.

Inghammar -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 7:58:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Inghammar quote: ORIGINAL: rawotk Gun control, my balls. If any one of the adults would have had a fucking gun, for chrissakes, at that or any other incident like it... At least the people would have had a damned chance. Sigh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2YC5cVxTcQ One did. She owned several, in fact. Her son used them to kill her, her colleagues, and 20 children. Way to argue the point. Sheesh.[8\|] What is there to argue? I cannot think of one incident in which an armed bystander stopped a massacre. I don't care about your guns - but don't proffer the Dirty Harry fantasy of staring down the sights of a .38 at a burglar with one leg over a window sill and your VCR in his arms. When you own a gun, it's much more likely to harm you or the ones your love than an aggressor.

Yachtie -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 7:59:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Inghammar quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Inghammar quote: ORIGINAL: rawotk Gun control, my balls. If any one of the adults would have had a fucking gun, for chrissakes, at that or any other incident like it... At least the people would have had a damned chance. Sigh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2YC5cVxTcQ One did. She owned several, in fact. Her son used them to kill her, her colleagues, and 20 children. Way to argue the point. Sheesh.[8\|] When you own a gun, it's much more likely to harm you or the ones your love than an aggressor. I'd suggest you read John Lott's well researched "More Guns, Less Crime". Then get back to us.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 8:00:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Starting this thread to keep the one about the Massacre in Connecticut from going to far off the point, one mentally unbalanced individual killing people for no good reason. Now for some facts: quote: More than 53,000 people have been murdered in Mexico in the last six years—most of them by a variety of pistols, rifles, and assault weapons owned by Mexican drug cartels. While the exact number of firearms in circulation in Mexico eludes everyone, we know tens of thousands are seized every year by Mexican authorities. These facts and figures might lead one to believe that it’s easy for cartels to buy or otherwise acquire guns in Mexico. In fact, Mexico has some of the strictest gun control laws on the entire planet—as well as one of the planet’s highest annual death tolls as a result of gun violence. source Now before you anti-gun fanatics start saying that the drug thugs are just going across the border into the states to get their firearms, I might as well point out that these cartels are using a lot of automatic weapons, meaning they primarily use the "spray and pray" style of shooting. quote: On the other hand, you might look at this little set of facts. In Sandpoint, North Idaho, where I live for most of the summer, it's extremely easy to buy a gun. You can buy them at stores and at gun shows, or just at yard sales. Yet there are almost no gun deaths in Bonner County, Idaho. The last ones of note in North Idaho were done by the FBI at Ruby Ridge, and that's a different story./snip On the other hand, in my beloved Los Angeles, where I live most of the year, there's extremely strict gun control. It's a real project to buy a gun. Here, we have gang shootings and death by guns on a terrifying scale. In my native city of Washington, D.C., the same goes: Strict gun control and lots of shootings. The same goes for Chicago. Strict gun control and a lot of killing. source Another example of a country with strict gun control laws is Jamaica, very strict laws and a very high rate of gun violence. Of course there is Israel, very lax gun laws and very low rate of gun violence. And people who are pro-gun are not monsters who care nothing for human life or the damage a gun can do. I am a combat vet, and I know full and well what a weapon in the right or even wrong hands can do. I can also say that if I had to, I could go to the nearest large city, spend a day or two and come home with a few untraceable weapons that may or may not be available legally. Of course, you could look at the rampant use of firearms in the various civil and tribal wars going on in Africa. I can guarantee that those killers did not go down to the local sporting goods store and buy those weapons. I own sporting weapons and some collectables. There is one weapon that I have been trying to get in my collection for a number of years, a Soviet Era Dragunov sniper rifle. They are illegal to import into the United States and have been for a number of years. The only ones legally allowed to be sold in the United States are those that got here before the ban. Recently, at a gun show I was told that I could buy one, but the price was 3 times the market price, which to me indicated the weapon would be illegal. The point, anyone can get a gun at any time, anyplace for the right price. Pro gun wacko's always spout the same bullshit after one of these horrible things happen. Yet, they are always without any ideas on how to change the status quo and keep things like this from happening. Nice try. Complete bullshit about Mexico though.

tazzygirl -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 8:01:28 AM)
quote: You seem to have missed the point. This man did not use an assault rifle. He used two pistols. Cho Seung-Hui used a Glock 9mm and a 22 at Virginia tech and killed 33 people. The Columbine shooters used a 9mm pistol, a 9mm rifle and two shotguns. This one used a Glock and a Sig Sauer quote: All the weapons were legally purchased but one in all three incidents. I never claimed otherwise. quote: As far as your "hundreds of rounds" statement, the authorities have not released the information on how many rounds were fired. And as I tried to point out, it was not a high rate of fire that was used here. That was the report from someone inside the building. quote: Most of the victims at Virginia Tech were killed over a 10 to 15 minute period, and in this case, he had MULTIPLE 10 and 15 round magazines. In the shooting in Arizona where Congresswoman Giffords was shot, he used one 9mm handgun and a MODIFIED magazine to hold a high number of rounds. First, Im not sure why you are doing all the CAPPING. Its distracting to read. Second, why would anyone require more than 10 round magazines? Third, how easy is it to modify a magazine?

tazzygirl -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 8:02:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl And I will ask again, why do you need a semi assault rifle? Why would anyone need a magazine that allowed someone to shoot off hundreds of rounds within 8 short minutes? Banning both would not solve any problem. Do you know what an M1 carbine could do? A .44mag lever action? Do you know just how fast one can fire one of them? Reload? Therefore pointing to one weapon, like a semi-auto AR/15 for instance, as the evil assault weapon and asking why would anyone need one, and as banning such would solve nothing, on what basis do you point at it? All I can fathom is, emotion. Why do you assume I am pointing to one weapon?

tazzygirl -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 8:05:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse An excerpt from an opinion piece by Charles Blow in the NYT this morning...it reflects my opinion 100%. As well as that of the former military person I live with. "An analysis published earlier this year by Mother Jones of the 61 mass shootings in America over the last 30 years found that: “Of the 139 guns possessed by the killers, more than three-quarters were obtained legally.” (The Oregon shooter stole his gun. The Connecticut shooter’s guns are reported to have been legally purchased in his mother’s name.) We must reinstate the assault weapons ban. Military-style guns belong in the hands of military personnel, and maybe police officers, but not in the hands of civilians. A vast majority of mass shootings in the last three decades involved assault weapons and semiautomatic handguns, according to Mother Jones. Even if you believe, as most Americans do, that the Second Amendment grants Americans the right to bear arms, one must also acknowledge the right of other Americans to not bear arms and be safe. Where are the voices for those who choose not to — or are not old enough to — own guns? Are the gunless to have no advocate? Will our politicians forever cower before the gun lobby?" I agree, LaT. Except I know many ex-military who enjoy shooting those guns at ranges. Many more who are just gun enthusiasts. I could see having them stored in a safer location than the home.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 8:05:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I heard a reference on the radio saying that the Bushmaster was found in the trunk of the car, and was never used. If that is correct (initial facts are still confused, I think), do you think that will delay for a moment efforts to claim this a tragedy that could have prevented, if only the assault rifle ban had been renewed? Certainly won`t prevent the rightist fantasy/alt-reality dicks from making shit up that doesn`t happen....... This shit is not normal and until the lunatic fringe/NRA types stop trying to make this shit the norm........desensitizing us to the violence,making us indifferent to the loss of loved ones,selling the crazy proposition that this crap is just a part of life(it`s not) and the cost of doing business........ we`ll never have an honest discussion. The NRA dicks (not to be confused with normal folks who favor reasonable gun regs) seem to trying to arm as many angry,unstable,self-made-victim, selfish adult children(and kids too for that matter) as possible. All the while trying to weaken the hard fought for and dearly payed for(in blood) reasonable gun laws we have on the books. For the record: the NRA has not tried to weaken any gun laws on the books. the NRA is in favor of reasonable gun laws. In this incident, the weapons used by the shooter were NOT assault style weapons. They were two pistols with high capacity magazines. The key words here are HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES. The weapon used in the Arizona shootings in which congresswoman Gifford was shot was again a 9mm pistol with a high capacity magazine. BANNING ASSAULT OR MILITARY STYLE WEAPONS WOULD NOT HAVE PREVENTED EITHER OF THESE TWO INCIDENTS. You want to prevent this from happening in the future? Do something about the number of rounds the shooter can fire before reloading. Now as I referred mike to, check out Charles Whitman and the UT Tower shooting. And yes, he was in a good position for what he was doing, BUT, he got his body count without an assault weapon, and without a high cap magazine for the weapons he had. When things like this happen, people want to ban assault weapons or handguns, or automatics. It is not the type of weapon that is the problem and the sooner anti gun proponents realize that, the easier it will be to actually coming up with gun laws that work. Banning assault weapons in the past did not stop multiple victim shootings, did nothing to reduce gun violence, and according to GOVERNMENT studies had little or no impact on gun related crime. When will you people learn that. IN case you have not noticed, there has not been an epidemic of mass murders in the United States. This kind of incident is not the norm, it a rare event in gun related violence. So please, do not think that extreme steps or gun laws will stop this from happening in the future. I and the majority of NRA members are in favor of reasonable, WORKABLE gun control laws. Some one in this thread said 40% of gun sales in the United States go without background checks. I would like to see where they got that information. You cannot go into ANY gun dealer in the US and buy a gun WITHOUT a background check, and since the enaction of the Brady bill, signed by a right wing saint, you cannot get a handgun at any dealer without a 7 day waiting period. Most gun related crimes in the United States DO NOT involve a legally purchased weapon. Check the facts yourself. Now consider the facts of this case, please. 1) the shooter was alleged to be mentally unstable, still waiting on the details. 2) the weapons were not his, not purchased by him, nor owned by him. They were registered to his mother. Not that it makes much difference, he had access to them. 3) Sane and reasonable people do not go out and commit mass murder, the exception being the concentration camps in Nazi Germany, and even then I am not sure those individuals were sane and reasonable. By the way, please refer to the incidence of gun violence in Israel, the number of guns in private hands in Israel, and the fact Israel has some very lax gun laws. And look at the statistics for the EU member states as well. So basically you are telling those parents and loved ones ...."tough shit, shit happens, get on with life".....nice

thishereboi -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 8:05:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 40% percent of gun sales do NOT have background checks....... funny-man. Again....until the NRA fucktard narratives are pushed out of the discussion.......we won`t have an honest discussion. I know you NRA types think it`s settled......that the 2nd Amendment says anyone can have any gun anywhere......but it doesn`t and it isn`t. Even the 2nd Amendment can be amended.....I only pray that as few precious children as possible are lost in the long,ugly process. Do you have a link to back up that claim or is it like the millions in Michigan bullshit again?

DomYngBlk -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 8:07:09 AM)
Great, so you are for more murders...Nice to see where you stand

tazzygirl -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 8:11:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 40% percent of gun sales do NOT have background checks....... funny-man. Again....until the NRA fucktard narratives are pushed out of the discussion.......we won`t have an honest discussion. I know you NRA types think it`s settled......that the 2nd Amendment says anyone can have any gun anywhere......but it doesn`t and it isn`t. Even the 2nd Amendment can be amended.....I only pray that as few precious children as possible are lost in the long,ugly process. Do you have a link to back up that claim or is it like the millions in Michigan bullshit again? Its based upon the background checks not being required for private gun sales.

thishereboi -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 8:17:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk Great, so you are for more murders...Nice to see where you stand where did I say that? Do you actually read someones post before you reply or do you just blurt out the first thing that pops into your head? Never mind, I already know the answer to that.

Edwynn -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 8:18:38 AM)
No background checks required for sales at most gun shows, either. How convenient. I'm sure that's a deep dark secret that no gun owners know about, nor even criminals know about. Shhhhh ...

LaTigresse -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 8:20:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I agree, LaT. Except I know many ex-military who enjoy shooting those guns at ranges. Many more who are just gun enthusiasts. I could see having them stored in a safer location than the home. Personally, I think the rights of innocents trump ANY person's enjoyment of shooting dick extension toys.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other. (12/15/2012 8:20:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk Great, so you are for more murders...Nice to see where you stand where did I say that? Do you actually read someones post before you reply or do you just blurt out the first thing that pops into your head? Never mind, I already know the answer to that. Do you always defend mass murderers? Oh yeah, you do.

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