quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I am well aware of that and Yes you are misunderstanding my point AND I've had my doubts about 9/11 since 9/11, AND I'm aware of all the conspiracy theories surrounding it and many other things...I also, have seen more "information" about the theories and the debunked responses than I care to remember.
Lets face it we have been having these theories tested, argued and retested since Ive been on Collarme.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR


The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns, is 'Why are we so desperate to turn the conversation away from the only one which could seriously yield an answer - guns?'

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
I agree. Join the NRA today.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
I agree. Join the NRA today.

You *are* a card and no mistake, Yachtie. You know that's not what I meant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR


The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns, is 'Why are we so desperate to turn the conversation away from the only one which could seriously yield an answer?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
Sooo... Why are you so desperate to turn the conversation away from the only approach which could seriously yield an answer... that being rationional analysis of *all* the factors?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
Sooo... Why are you so desperate to turn the conversation away from the only approach which could seriously yield an answer... that being rationional analysis of *all* the factors?

Nup, not playing, Powergamz. The history of politics and political change in the modern era is stuffed full of examples in which both the question and the answer are bleeding obvious and, for me, this is one of them. I can't be arsed with a lot of irrelevant questions and answers that are designed to go nowhere. And 'desperation' has never, and will never, be one of my feelings about the issue for the excellent reason that it's not the society that I live in. It's yours.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
Except that only one of us is trying to derail useful discourse on a complex matter with demands that rational analysis of all factors be ignored in favor of 'obvious', magical, single-solution thinking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
Except that only one of us is trying to derail useful discourse on a complex matter with demands that rational analysis of all factors be ignored in favor of 'obvious', magical, single-solution thinking.

It's a paradoxical thing, Powergamz, but it's a time-honoured theme in politics: a simple problem, with its simple solution, is quite frequently drowned in a sea of supposed complexities. Obfuscation is the aim, of course. Those who love such obfuscation the most - and most want to avoid the obvious (though painful) solution - will frequently pontificate about the superior intellectual plane in which their thinking takes place.

Suddenly, all the 'I'm a real, straight-shootin', real life livin', to hell with your pissant pinko faggot books, yessirree!' crap is out of the window. Nutty gun fans abruptly drop the John Wayne image and, rarely for them, try on the bearded intellectual thing instead. It's hilarious!

No offence, but like I said, I'm not playing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Your insistence on shouting down logic followed by all those strawmen where you claim that other people say and believe the exact opposite of what they do, is very much 'playing'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
a simple problem, with its simple solution,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

a simple problem, with its simple solution, is quite frequently drowned in a sea of supposed complexities. Obfuscation is the aim, of course. Those who love such obfuscation the most - and most want to avoid the obvious (though painful) solution - will frequently pontificate about the superior intellectual plane in which their thinking takes place.

Let's test people's "intellectual plane" with some data: Guess which year Parliament's confiscatory gun acts were passed.

England and Wales, Homicides 1995-2009

Year    Homicides     /100,000

2009          615          1.1
2008          657          1.2
2007          774          1.4
2006          758          1.3
2005          764          1.3
2004          868          1.5
2003          904          1.7
2002         1047          2.0
2001          891          1.7
2000          850          1.6
1999          766          1.5
1998          750          1.5
1997          739          1.4
1996          679          1.3
1995          745          1.5

Of course the answer is 1997, as any idiot can plainly see.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

a simple problem, with its simple solution, is quite frequently drowned in a sea of supposed complexities. Obfuscation is the aim, of course. Those who love such obfuscation the most - and most want to avoid the obvious (though painful) solution - will frequently pontificate about the superior intellectual plane in which their thinking takes place.

Let's test people's "intellectual plane" with some data: Guess which year Parliament's confiscatory gun acts were passed.

England and Wales, Homicides 1995-2009

Year    Homicides     /100,000

2009          615          1.1
2008          657          1.2
2007          774          1.4
2006          758          1.3
2005          764          1.3
2004          868          1.5
2003          904          1.7
2002         1047          2.0
2001          891          1.7
2000          850          1.6
1999          766          1.5
1998          750          1.5
1997          739          1.4
1996          679          1.3
1995          745          1.5

Of course the answer is 1997, as any idiot can plainly see.

Your statistics are for "Homicides by any means"

The statistics for "homicides by guns" are quite diffeerent:

In England & Wales, annual firearm homicides total

2009: 41
2008: 38
2007: 53
2006: 59
2005: 50
2004: 73
2003: 68
2002: 81
2001: 96
2000: 73
1999: 62
1998: 49
1997: 59
1996: 49
1995: 70

In England & Wales, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is

2009: 0.1
2008: 0.1
2007: 0.1
2006: 0.1
2005: 0.1
2004: 0.1
2003: 0.1
2001: 0.2
1999: 0.1
1998: 0.1
1997: 0.1
1996: 0.1
1995: 0.1
1992: 0.07

It does seem that the 1997 Law did not make much difference.
If I have the correct statistics it seems the Law was not needed.

But the rate is considerably lower than in the US, isn't it?

SAME SOURCE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
I know exactly what you meant. No matter, being armed is an answer many simply do not comprehend.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA

I also understand the psychology of gun ownership and weapon escalation. What gun fanatics fail to understand are the fundamentals of human psychology and how their own ownership is not motivated by safety concerns but by the psychology of power which a gun evokes.

These are nothing but contemptible claims based on mind-reading.

K.