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RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/23/2012 11:54:22 AM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		~FR~
The story changes . . .

Sandy Hook has been the most misreported story in recent memory, but a few facts may have emerged. To date, authorities have not located any confirmed diagnosis for Adam Lanza. Relatives and former classmates say he had Asperger's syndrome, but this mild form of autism has no correlation with violence. The boy is described as anything but menacing – rather, as withdrawn, antisocial, even "meek", according to an official at his high school, who explained that Adam was only assigned a psychologist because a scrawny, cringing loner might be tormented by peers.

and

Even the oft-printed assertion that Nancy frequently took her sons to shooting ranges is not bearing scrutiny. At a nearby range, police pored for hours over every sign-in, and found no Lanza at target practice in 2012.

Source

It is not even likely, if this is true, that Adam Lanza would have been up for a psychiatric referral because of menacing behavior.

Selecting those to be evaluated is really problematic.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/23/2012 8:21:05 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		My supervisor was telling me and a client the other day about a friend of his who had committed suicide. The story came up when the client informed us that he'd been told it is impossible to strangle yourself with a belt. I first referred him to all of the accidental deaths caused by the so-called "choking" games online that teens sometimes engage in.

My supervisor then told us about his friend, who had bipolar disorder. He had been in the hospital for several days due to depression and the hospital was going to discharge him because he'd been calm for a day. The man's wife fought the discharge, even told the hospital he would commit suicide if he was discharged because he always got happy and calm when he hit the absolute bottom. For years, everybody close to him knew that such behavior signaled that he had formulated a plan for his death. But the hospital didn't listen, they discharged him anyway. His wife arranged for friends and family to be with him 24 hours a day, but there was a lapse in the "babysitting". The moment he found alone, the guy put a belt around his neck, attached it to the stairway railing and went over.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/23/2012 8:46:04 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Which substantiates the concept that although the act of suicide may seem irrational and even unthinkable to many of us, for a large number of people around the world, it is simply the end result of a predictable pattern and often, a thought out plan.

In some cases, part of that thinking has become 'How can I maximize the impact to the rest of the world from my death?'.

Between the media and politicans, the answer is increasingly obvious... get a higher score than previous celebrity suicides like Kleibold and now Lanza.


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

My supervisor was telling me and a client the other day about a friend of his who had committed suicide. The story came up when the client informed us that he'd been told it is impossible to strangle yourself with a belt. I first referred him to all of the accidental deaths caused by the so-called "choking" games online that teens sometimes engage in.

My supervisor then told us about his friend, who had bipolar disorder. He had been in the hospital for several days due to depression and the hospital was going to discharge him because he'd been calm for a day. The man's wife fought the discharge, even told the hospital he would commit suicide if he was discharged because he always got happy and calm when he hit the absolute bottom. For years, everybody close to him knew that such behavior signaled that he had formulated a plan for his death. But the hospital didn't listen, they discharged him anyway. His wife arranged for friends and family to be with him 24 hours a day, but there was a lapse in the "babysitting". The moment he found alone, the guy put a belt around his neck, attached it to the stairway railing and went over.




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RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/23/2012 9:43:59 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

The federal database for mental illness that you're proposing already exists and you've already explained why it doesn't work better:


I had a thread that addressed how this could be done...but it got consolidated

Butch

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RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/23/2012 11:21:58 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

The federal database for mental illness that you're proposing already exists and you've already explained why it doesn't work better:


I had a thread that addressed how this could be done...but it got consolidated

Butch



Butch, if it relates to addressing mental health problems in society, then speaking as the guy who started the thread, I wouldn't see a problem with cut/pasting your points into here. Bring 'em in.





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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/23/2012 11:59:24 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Too often, the police expect to find a suspect who is 'a little strange'... as with the West Memphis 3.

The arbitrary and nebulous label of 'mental illness' is no more useful than the other broad brushes that get waved around at times like these.

A look at specific cognitive and behavioral issues would be better.



quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't believe it is addressed tazzy...in reality it very seldom happens that families report abnormal behavior to authorities... First families are reluctant to go to authorities and even when they do local authorities or even more reluctant to force treatment… And even when treatment is forced there is little supervision in the majority of cases to assure patients are taking their medications once released.

I am not saying it does not work in some cases but only that it would be more effective with limited resources to address the shortcomings of states that are mandated to keep the databases the FBI and licensing authorities depend on when licensing weapons.

Ideally and I am all for states funding both mental illness care and gun ownership licensing databases but hell try and pass a tax to do it now days… I’m always the realist.

Butch



You have a point. All too often the police hear, "well he has always been a bit strange."



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/26/2012 4:28:42 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Mental health, as a public health issue.

Instead of focusing all our attention on what tool fell into the wrong hands, wouldn't we do better to talk about the owners of those hands? The most common cause of killing sprees is some guy who decided to go on a killing spree.

Very often, these tragedies come from people we already know to be mentally ill. More money for treatment isn't going to be the only approach we need to take, if we want to address it in a way that will make a difference.

Can we, as a free society, and respectful of individual liberties, force the mentally ill into treatment? Can we mandate the use of medication? Or is the slope simply too slippery to risk?



Here here!!!! Well said!

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/26/2012 4:48:41 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Mental health, as a public health issue.

Instead of focusing all our attention on what tool fell into the wrong hands, wouldn't we do better to talk about the owners of those hands? The most common cause of killing sprees is some guy who decided to go on a killing spree.

Very often, these tragedies come from people we already know to be mentally ill. More money for treatment isn't going to be the only approach we need to take, if we want to address it in a way that will make a difference.

Can we, as a free society, and respectful of individual liberties, force the mentally ill into treatment? Can we mandate the use of medication? Or is the slope simply too slippery to risk?

The determinants of the vast majority of violent crimes are cultural and economic. Cases like these are anomalies. And psychological hindsight is cheap. We always find people saying the perpetrator was "weird," or that he was a loner, or that there had been behavior problems at school before -- or that he was always quiet and never got into trouble! -- but you can't predict anything from that.

Nobody sees these things coming. And there's rarely much to go on even in hindsight. I suppose we could enact a law making it mandatory for a citizen to submit to some sort of psychiatric proctology if anybody says he's weird, or if he pulls a prank at school, and perhaps especially if nobody thinks he's weird and he never gets into trouble (those are the ones you have to watch, you know).

But I wouldn't call that a slippery slope. I'd call it the bottom.

K.


I wouldn't.

My Mom and I discussed this yesterday, Christmas morning....she of the opinion that these people should be simply shot when found...no trial (she's a Mom)....I of the opinion that, knowing "insanity" is a legal, not a medical term, any attorney in court, having a client who'd done such a horrid thing simply needs to ask the question "would a sane person have killed (insert number of innocent victims here) people?"

And of course, the answer, as best as I can decipher it is..."no". Giving the lawyer (and the system) a way out.

So....when we realize that Reagan decimated funding for mentally ill folks (and it hasn't improved since), there needs to be something done "for" these folks...not to them.

There's a bunch of people wondering about genetically modified foods and how that may be affecting the population at large, fracking and chemicals in water, pollution, cell phones, radiation, I don't even have the capacity or knowledge to understand all the other stuff...even some tin foil hat stuff that 40 years ago most of us would have dismissed as just crazy talk, now they have links to behaviour and inputs. Much of which, of course, is quashed by ever increasing cash from Monsanto, Archer Daniels, and even folks as lovely as Procter and Gamble.

If you're over 50, there's shit in the stuff you surround yourself with (and surrounded yourself with) that you wouldn't allow within 100 yards of your crazier than batshit neighbor if you read the label and did 2 minutes of research.

Remember Scotchguard (since reformulated)? We all sprayed all our shoes, rain coats, couches, umbrella's, outdoor clothes, with dozens of cans of that shit..."perfectly safe".....until we found out that the molecules are smaller than engine oil molecules and, whether you sit on it (elevated) or fall asleep on the couch and breath in that shit....stays in your lipids system for 50 years....and it fucks up your DNA. That's already known.

Your cats and children are closer to that shit than you ever were....hell, your kids or grandkids were licking the shit.

If we can't stop the crazy shit we're all doing to ourselves....daily....maybe we can at least consider those who are the most vulnerable to those things that for whatever reason, some of us have (so far) escaped...but affects others tremendously.

There's gonna be some shit that we all learn in 40 years (just like the shit we learned in the last 40) that's going to blow every one of us away...thinking..."why the fuck did we ever do/believe/accept....that?"

Some of these people are so close to the edge....at birth....that the stuff we allow by simply turning our heads pushes them over the top.

I, for one, think mental health care needs a serious increase in funding, research and care. More now than ever in the entire world's history. We're killing ourselves.

Whether it's a gun, or chemicals....we're handing the devices to do so to people that in too many cases, simply can't comprehend.

2 cents.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 12/26/2012 4:50:20 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/26/2012 6:56:12 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I wouldn't call that a slippery slope. I'd call it the bottom.

I wouldn't...

I, for one, think mental health care needs a serious increase in funding, research and care.

To correct any misunderstanding, I never said I that didn't support increases in funding for mental health services. I was responding to Heretic's questions about forced treatment:

Can we, as a free society, and respectful of individual liberties, force the mentally ill into treatment? Can we mandate the use of medication? Or is the slope simply too slippery to risk?

K.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/26/2012 10:26:09 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Mental health, as a public health issue.

Instead of focusing all our attention on what tool fell into the wrong hands, wouldn't we do better to talk about the owners of those hands? The most common cause of killing sprees is some guy who decided to go on a killing spree.

Very often, these tragedies come from people we already know to be mentally ill. More money for treatment isn't going to be the only approach we need to take, if we want to address it in a way that will make a difference.

Can we, as a free society, and respectful of individual liberties, force the mentally ill into treatment? Can we mandate the use of medication? Or is the slope simply too slippery to risk?




If we consider that the US has at least 8X more arms per citizen than any other developed economy, I suppose by that math alone we could say that our per capita sanity vs. murder rate is not for consideration.

Unless we were to consider the sanity of of owning 8X more weapons per capita than any other developed economy, 30 round mags and rapid-fire semi-autos, etc.

Or if we were to consider that the US is already the most on-medication of all the developed economies already, including the 26% of school kids on mandated phsyco drugs at present, and rising.

But here you propose that we raise that percentage of both kids and adults on psycho-meds, even above the already astounding level as exists now, so as to accommodate the 'freedom' of some few owning semi-auto weapons with tremendous, and far beyond any notion of personal protection, ultra capacity magazines.

Ya. Got it.

More drugs, to accommodate more guns.

Makes perfect sense, in its own way.







(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/27/2012 12:05:17 AM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

But here you propose



Quotation, without comprehension.

Try reading the thread, and adjusting your attitude. I'd rather run my new jackhammer, with a hangover, than waste my time trying to edjumicate the snarky and obtuse.



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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/27/2012 12:43:17 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

the US has at least 8X more arms per citizen than any other developed economy...

But here you propose that we raise that percentage of both kids and adults on psycho-meds, even above the already astounding level as exists now, so as to accommodate the 'freedom' of some few owning semi-auto weapons with tremendous, and far beyond any notion of personal protection, ultra capacity magazines.

Ya. Got it.

8x more arms per citizen, almost all of them semi-autos... the freedom of just "some few" owning semi-autos

Ya. Got it.

K.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/27/2012 3:08:43 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
8x more arms per citizen, almost all of them semi-autos...




Yes, exactly what I did NOT say, thanks for that clarification.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 12/27/2012 4:40:10 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I wouldn't call that a slippery slope. I'd call it the bottom.

I wouldn't...

I, for one, think mental health care needs a serious increase in funding, research and care.

To correct any misunderstanding, I never said I that didn't support increases in funding for mental health services. I was responding to Heretic's questions about forced treatment:

Can we, as a free society, and respectful of individual liberties, force the mentally ill into treatment? Can we mandate the use of medication? Or is the slope simply too slippery to risk?

K.


My error/apology...I was on a rant it would seem.

I knew a woman back in the mid to late 80's who had a 26 year old son (schizophrenic), I, all of 20 something, Republican, thought "well...buck up....it ain't my job as a taxpayer to....." and then I watched her lovingly take care of her son outside of the system, giving up everything, spending weeks and months on what was then any kind of precursor to the internet, trying so hard to find solutions (since the system had largely disappeared), and I equally watched her sell everything to take care of this kid, dying more than broke....so....

I guess I'm still of the mindset that it ain't my problem....but the news today would certainly indicate that it is most assuradly "ours".

Having known so many people since, mentally disabled whether marginally or symptomatically, I hurt for these people because their lives are filled with unending pain and I wish I had the magic switch that could turn it off. Thankfully I don't experience these issues personally, but they're as real as the car in your driveway to those that do.

I just hope that, after we get our national affairs in order....we can find a way to help these folks who, through no fault of their own....can't help themselves, and are hurting, every day.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 12/27/2012 4:44:41 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 1/18/2013 5:33:16 PM   
whipher1


Posts: 51
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		So, it comes out that Adam Lanza never used an AR or AK in the horrible slaughter of those kids. Just as I heard the first couple days after the shooting, the AR never left the car. Doesn’t change the outcome, just emphasizes that the Liberal bastard press will lie to push their agenda, even over the dead bodies of innocent children. All we have heard for three weeks is how he killed everyone with an “Assault rifle”. They knew it all the time. Here is a news clip played on MSNBC. I guess someone was going to spill the beans about the truth so they figured they might as well

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 1/18/2013 5:35:32 PM   
whipher1


Posts: 51
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		here is the news as we know it !!!



http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/50208495#50208495

(in reply to whipher1)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 1/18/2013 5:39:17 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

the AR never left the car


And yet so many have claimed what was in the trunk was not the AR 15. Care to explain?

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RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 1/18/2013 5:43:31 PM   
Ronnie1986


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

the AR never left the car


And yet so many have claimed what was in the trunk was not the AR 15. Care to explain?

this video cares to explain.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx9GxXYKx_8&bpctr=1358561581

9/11 was to win us over on going to war.. sandy hook is to win the people over on slowly getting rid of guns

< Message edited by Ronnie1986 -- 1/18/2013 5:44:11 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 1/18/2013 5:51:09 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Infowars?

Alex Jones?

Pass

Something else.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: The conversation we ought to have, instead of guns is - 1/18/2013 6:01:37 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Every news story concerning the weapons used by Adam Lanza have stressed a 10mm and 9mm pistols and a bushmaster, the weapon left in the trunk of the car was a shotgun.

That backs up Tazzy.

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(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 100
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