Lets make a deal

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jlf1961 -> Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 2:56:35 AM)
On the table is the 2nd amendment. For letting this go, in return an amendment to the constitution banning abortions in the United States and the repeal of the 19th amendment, and for my fanatic right wing Christians, a partial repeal of the 1st amendment, in essence a complete ban on pornography, prayer allowed in schools, and an acknowledgement that the United States is a Christian nation under God. If I am willing to give up gun ownership, and since I am Catholic, I am against the idea of abortion. I want a few things in return. To me it sounds reasonable.

blacksword404 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 3:02:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 On the table is the 2nd amendment. For letting this go, in return an amendment to the constitution banning abortions in the United States and the repeal of the 19th amendment, and for my fanatic right wing Christians, a partial repeal of the 1st amendment, in essence a complete ban on pornography, prayer allowed in schools, and an acknowledgement that the United States is a Christian nation under God. If I am willing to give up gun ownership, and since I am Catholic, I am against the idea of abortion. I want a few things in return. To me it sounds reasonable. Going whole hog huh?

jlf1961 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 3:08:29 AM)
A couple of other things that I think should be repealed, again this is for getting rid of the 2nd amendment. I am tired of criminals getting off on technicalities, so, lets add the 4th and 5th amendments to help out law enforcement.

jlf1961 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 3:09:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 On the table is the 2nd amendment. For letting this go, in return an amendment to the constitution banning abortions in the United States and the repeal of the 19th amendment, and for my fanatic right wing Christians, a partial repeal of the 1st amendment, in essence a complete ban on pornography, prayer allowed in schools, and an acknowledgement that the United States is a Christian nation under God. If I am willing to give up gun ownership, and since I am Catholic, I am against the idea of abortion. I want a few things in return. To me it sounds reasonable. Going whole hog huh? If you cant beat em, join em. Right?

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 3:15:11 AM)
Nice notion jlf. But why abortions? What has that got to do with it? I believe prayers are already allowed in schools. But the notion of forced prayers is just unthinkable for those that are not christians or non-believers. As for "an acknowledgement that the United States is a Christian nation under God" Which god would you foister on everyone?? That is almost as bad as a dictatorship! Personally, if you don't like tazzy's proposal about locking up semi and auto guns, why not just ban then completely like it is in many other countries, including here?? Guns will never ever be eradicated but if Joe Public doesn't have them as a matter of course, gun related crimes will plummet. You want a statistic for that premise? From the BBC news last night - A decade ago, 60% of US citizens legally owned a gun. Today, just under 33% still own a gun. Gun related crimes in the US have, in general, fallen by 40%. The figures speak for themselves. And, if I can remember the quote correctly that was cited on the BBC news last night from a US gun law specialist - "Those that advocate the ownership or carry guns, when faced with a situation that we had on Friday, the chances of having your gun out, loaded, ready and aimed at the shooter at the point they make their entry into the room is even less than the chances of winning the National Lottery. In that event, gun ownership, even if kept loaded and handy, is just as ineffective as not not having a gun and would not have stopped the killer". I think those comments just about wipe out any notion that owning a gun is a necessity. Given that the 2nd was made in the days of the wild west, just over 200 years ago (December 15, 1791), the circumstances for having weapons was vastly different to the living standards of today. The UK was no different is that regard until 1920 when we changed our gun ownership laws. * In 1920, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess any firearm except a shotgun. To obtain this certificate, the applicant had to pay a fee, and the chief of police had to be "satisfied" that the applicant had "good reason for requiring such a certificate" and did not pose a "danger to the public safety or to the peace." The certificate had to specify the types and quantities of firearms and ammunition that the applicant could purchase and keep. * In 1968, Britain made the 1920 law stricter by requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess a shotgun. This law also required that firearm certificates specify the identification numbers ("if known") of all firearms and shotguns owned by the applicant. * In 1997, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to surrender almost all privately owned handguns to the police. More than 162,000 handguns and 1.5 million pounds of ammunition were "compulsorily surrendered" by February 1998. Using "records of firearms held on firearms certificates," police accounted for all but fewer than eight of all legally owned handguns in England, Scotland, and Wales. It is also interesting that when you go to various websites to get statistical data, those showing statistics for gun related crimes are often shown per 100,000 for the US but per million for the UK, and our figures are half that of the US. We did it, despite the general objections - just like in the US. And given the number of horrific incidents we have seen in recent years, I see no reason why the US couldn't follow suit. You talk about freedoms and rights. You want the freedom and right to own guns. I would like my US friends to have the right to walk down the street and not be in fear of being shot at and getting killed. Gangs could be rounded up at regular intervals and all guns and narcotics confiscated. Sure, there will always be illegal guns, in much the same way as there are illegal drugs. But if you weren't allowed to have them in the first place, being caught with a gun would mean instant jail whether you'd used it or not. Just like here, being caught with even the smallest amount of drugs gets you a minimum of 6 months inside.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 3:24:30 AM)
This is one of the stupidest 'proposals' I have ever read. So in your highly sleep deprived mind, feminist should have to give up their right to abortion in order to get a real level of gun control? I won't even comment on the "acknowledgement that the United States is a Christian nation under God." Recall your history: this country was built on the right to practice religion freely without government interference. Our constitution was built on the separation of church and state. Take an ambien, it really, is time dood.

smartsub10 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 3:25:57 AM)
quote: the United States is a Christian nation under God. You don't say? I'll have to ask my Russian Jewish friends -again - why they immigrated to the U.S. They told me it was so they could freely practice their religion and not have to deal with the blatant antisemitism in Russia. Apparently, they were mistaken. If this is a Christian nation then the Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, etc should get out?

blacksword404 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 3:31:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 On the table is the 2nd amendment. For letting this go, in return an amendment to the constitution banning abortions in the United States and the repeal of the 19th amendment, and for my fanatic right wing Christians, a partial repeal of the 1st amendment, in essence a complete ban on pornography, prayer allowed in schools, and an acknowledgement that the United States is a Christian nation under God. If I am willing to give up gun ownership, and since I am Catholic, I am against the idea of abortion. I want a few things in return. To me it sounds reasonable. Going whole hog huh? If you cant beat em, join em. Right? Yeah I guess so. You can't argue with a terrified person.

jlf1961 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 3:33:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt This is one of the stupidest 'proposals' I have ever read. So in your highly sleep deprived mind, feminist should have to give up their right to abortion in order to get a real level of gun control? I won't even comment on the "acknowledgement that the United States is a Christian nation under God." Recall your history: this country was built on the right to practice religion freely without government interference. Our constitution was built on the separation of church and state. Take an ambien, it really, is time dood. While I am a democrat, I am also an avid gun enthusiast, I am also Catholic, and against abortion., the real problem feminists should have with this proposal is the repeal of the 19th amendment, that gave women the right to vote. Therefore, some of my beliefs are in line with the conservatives on this board, and as the conservatives and Christian right are anti-abortion, pro gun and want prayer in school, then I must make it worth their while to gain their support for this proposition. Furthermore, if I, an avid gun enthusiast must give up my right to own fire arms to satisfy the extremist anti gun citizens of this country, then I too want a few things in return. You made it clear with your statement "get a real level of gun control." Elimination of the 2nd amendment is not gun control, it is the complete elimination of a constitutional right. The anti-gun members of this board want the extreme and call it gun control, I want the extreme in return. Besides I served my country to protect these rights, mine and yours. If one of mine is going to be taken away, to please a group of citizens who think that will change the number of people killed by guns in this country by a significant number, then they too should be willing to give up a few things. All you will accomplish by taking away the right to private ownership of guns is going to be the victims of accidental shootings, the victims of domestic violence involving guns, and the spree shooter like what happened at Aurora, the mall in Washington, and at the school Friday. At most 2000 men, women and children a year. Care to tell me how you are going to save the 30000 men, women and children killed in gang violence each year with guns? And your right, the "Acknowledge that the United States is a Christian nation under god" Doesn't quite go far enough. Instead lets rewrite the first amendment from: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. To: Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Lets really make the Christian right and ultra conservatives cum in their pants.

Rule -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 3:37:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 On the table is the 2nd amendment. For letting this go, in return an amendment to the constitution banning abortions in the United States and the repeal of the 19th amendment, and for my fanatic right wing Christians, a partial repeal of the 1st amendment, in essence a complete ban on pornography, prayer allowed in schools, and an acknowledgement that the United States is a Christian nation under God. If I am willing to give up gun ownership, and since I am Catholic, I am against the idea of abortion. I want a few things in return. To me it sounds reasonable. I will agree to banning abortion on the condition that unwanted babies can be exposed on reefs and on high mountains I have no objection to a ban on pornography, provided that it is limited to explicit pornography, i.e. sexual acts. I still want to read books like Norman's Gor series and I still want to watch nude attractive females. I object to prayer in schools. And though I am sympathetic to "an acknowledgement that the United States is a Christian nation", I most certainly do not want to have the words "under God" added to that - being a post-Christian I do not exactly am enamoured by the acknowledgement. In fact in my opinion the 'freedom of religion' principle is extremely stupid. Everyone ought to choose to obey my decrees. And if you have no use for your guns anymore, please donate them to the needy.

metamorfosis -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 3:39:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule In fact in my opinion the 'freedom of religion' principle is extremely stupid. Everyone ought to choose to obey my decrees. My vote is to repeal the whole Constitution and just put Rule in charge. Hehehehe. Pam

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 3:42:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 While I am a democrat, I am also an avid gun enthusiast, I am also Catholic, and against abortion., the real problem feminists should have with this proposal is the repeal of the 19th amendment, that gave women the right to vote. Therefore, some of my beliefs are in line with the conservatives on this board, and as the conservatives and Christian right are anti-abortion, pro gun and want prayer in school, then I must make it worth their while to gain their support for this proposition. Furthermore, if I, an avid gun enthusiast must give up my right to own fire arms to satisfy the extremist anti gun citizens of this country, then I too want a few things in return. You made it clear with your statement "get a real level of gun control." Elimination of the 2nd amendment is not gun control, it is the complete elimination of a constitutional right. The anti-gun members of this board want the extreme and call it gun control, I want the extreme in return. So, you are happy to give up your guns but ONLY if everyone bows down to YOUR ideals as a catholic and an anti-abortionist. What about the rights of free choice on abortions?? Just because you don't support it doesn't mean you should remove a completely different right and freedom of someone else. What about the rights of freedom of choice of religion?? By your standards, only catholics would be tolerated and all other religions would be obliterated or go underground. That reminds me of the catholic uprisings here in the Henry era and of his daughter Mary (who was a fanatical catholic) that burned thousands of people for not following "the true faith" when she came to be queen. It also smacks of the KKK. As for the 2nd, you were granted it in the beginning as a follow-on from the British Constitution that allowed such weaponry to the common people. We repealed our laws and gun crime, although not zero, is significantly lower than that of the US. What was given can just as easily be taken away. If the 'gift' is abused to such an extent as those following are unable to use it wisely, then that gift or 'right' needs to be taken away. But that doesn't give those having their toys taken off them the right to demand other things as a replacement or compensation.

jlf1961 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 6:19:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 What about the rights of freedom of choice of religion?? By your standards, only catholics would be tolerated and all other religions would be obliterated or go underground. That reminds me of the catholic uprisings here in the Henry era and of his daughter Mary (who was a fanatical catholic) that burned thousands of people for not following "the true faith" when she came to be queen. It also smacks of the KKK. As for the 2nd, you were granted it in the beginning as a follow-on from the British Constitution that allowed such weaponry to the common people. We repealed our laws and gun crime, although not zero, is significantly lower than that of the US. What was given can just as easily be taken away. If the 'gift' is abused to such an extent as those following are unable to use it wisely, then that gift or 'right' needs to be taken away. But that doesn't give those having their toys taken off them the right to demand other things as a replacement or compensation. As I said, lets give the Extreme conservative christians something to make them cum in their pants. Have you ever heard of the "Moral Majority?" It is a group of fundamentalist protestant christian that is very active in politics here in the states. They are even more fanatic about the right to own guns of just about any kind you could think of. Some of the fringe members of this loose organization have murdered abortion doctors, clinic workers and fire bombed and used explosives on abortion clinics. In their own way they are as fanatic as any Muslim extremists. As for my proposals, if I and other gun owners are willing to give up that right, then, the other segments of the american population should be willing to give up some of their rights as well. In other threads I made proposals on gun control that would make the NRA scream and call for my head on a pike. However they are what I think this country needs in gun control, a start at the very least. They included criminal liabilities for people failed to report a gun stolen, or being so irresponsible as to make it possible for a family member such as a teenager, take the weapon or weapons and shoot up school Civil liabilities are useless. Okay so a judge finds you civilly liable for damages caused by your gun and orders you to pay compensation. No problem, declare bankruptcy and presto that court ordered payment becomes pay as little as you want and go your merry way. That is bullshit. I even proposed an idea I borrowed from the Greeks, mandatory psych evals prior to allowing the purchase of a fire arm. I got the sorry chum, not good enough, we want all your guns taken away regardless of the compromises you are offering. Hell the NRA would have it so if I wanted to, I could to walmart and buy a full auto military style rifle that fires 1500 rounds a minute, and in my opinion that is insane. So if we are going to start taking away people's rights in this country, lets go whole hog. Lets give everyone something to make em happy.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 6:20:52 AM)
There's no need to go the whole hog at all otherwise you might just as well tear up the whole constitution. Guns and the ready availability of them is the problem in the US. So that is the only thing that needs to be redressed. And if that means taking away your toys for the good of the country, then so be it. Whatever safeguards you try to put in place, someone will find a way round it. IMHO, it's best just to do away with them completely for Joe Public as there is a very large contingent of 'legal' owners that are just not careful enough to have one. You may be one of the ones that are indeed very careful and only use them for hunting and target practice but unfortunately, that cannot be said for quite a large proportion of those that own guns. By all means, have laws that allow only certain guns for hunting - as they do here in the UK. That would not stop you owning a gun but you would be severely limited in the types and numbers of gun and ammo that you could legally own. That doesn't give you the right to demand other compensations or repeals of other laws.

TheHeretic -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 6:28:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 On the table is the 2nd amendment. For letting this go, in return an amendment to the constitution banning abortions in the United States and the repeal of the 19th amendment, and for my fanatic right wing Christians, a partial repeal of the 1st amendment, in essence a complete ban on pornography, prayer allowed in schools, and an acknowledgement that the United States is a Christian nation under God. If I am willing to give up gun ownership, and since I am Catholic, I am against the idea of abortion. I want a few things in return. To me it sounds reasonable. No. I happen to like like gun ownership, abortion, pornography, and religious freedom. See, JLF? The universe is returning to to the proper order. [;)]

Aylee -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 6:33:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 On the table is the 2nd amendment. For letting this go, in return an amendment to the constitution banning abortions in the United States and the repeal of the 19th amendment, and for my fanatic right wing Christians, a partial repeal of the 1st amendment, in essence a complete ban on pornography, prayer allowed in schools, and an acknowledgement that the United States is a Christian nation under God. If I am willing to give up gun ownership, and since I am Catholic, I am against the idea of abortion. I want a few things in return. To me it sounds reasonable. I could go along with this, MAYBE, if you repealed the 17th amendment.

LizDeluxe -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 6:41:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 But why abortions? What has that got to do with it? Why not? The man offered a compromise and IMO a reasonable one, at that. Instead you summarily dismiss him and then prattle on about guns.

slvemike4u -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 6:43:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 But why abortions? What has that got to do with it? Why not? The man offered a compromise and IMO a reasonable one, at that. Instead you summarily dismiss him and then prattle on about guns. He didn't offer a compromise,he put forth nothing more than a red herring. Give me one sensible reason that abortions should be linked to gun control ? One sensible reason why a woman's right to sovereignty over her own body has anything to do with a desire to make the streets of America a safer country ? Nothing more than a red herring,one that you are embracing because you know it's a non starter. You a poster who ,on another thread,indicated that you would take a human life in defense of your car ! Tell me again about the sanctity of human life,life that is not equal to the value of your car....lol,what a fucking joke

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 6:44:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 But why abortions? What has that got to do with it? Why not? The man offered a compromise and IMO a reasonable one, at that. Instead you summarily dismiss him and then prattle on about guns. I don't think it's resonable to remove a completely unrelated freedom to fit only his version of what should be in his eyes and other like-minded people. It's fine if you are a catholic and an anti-abortionist. If your beliefs are different than his then what he is proposing is just selfish and completely unrelated to giving up guns for the good of the country as a whole. He is demanding a tit-for-tat exchange for his own beliefs which would be unfair to anyone not following the same path that he is. So in that sense, it is not a reasonable compromise at all.

jlf1961 -> RE: Lets make a deal (12/16/2012 6:53:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 But why abortions? What has that got to do with it? Why not? The man offered a compromise and IMO a reasonable one, at that. Instead you summarily dismiss him and then prattle on about guns. He didn't offer a compromise,he put forth nothing more than a red herring. Give me one sensible reason that abortions should be linked to gun control ? One sensible reason why a woman's right to sovereignty over her own body has anything to do with a desire to make the streets of America a safer country ? Nothing more than a red herring,one that you are embracing because you know it's a non starter. You a poster who ,on another thread,indicated that you would take a human life in defense of your car ! Tell me again about the sanctity of human life,life that is not equal to the value of your car....lol,what a fucking joke Mike, if one segment is gonna give up their rights, then other segments should be willing to do so as well. As I stated, I am morally against abortion, as you are morally against guns. In my belief abortion kills more children a year than guns ever did.

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