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Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 11:01:02 AM   
blacksword404


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The shooter in connecticut is described as brilliant. Taking college classes as a 16 year old. But also socially maladjusted. Didn't make friends easily.

Many other geniuses have had other problems. Drug and alcohol problems, able to explain high order theories and equations that you wouldn't understand if you had 100 years to study it. But unable to grasp the simple things. Look at the geniuses we have had in music, writing, mathematics.

Does that kind of mental capacity come with negatives to even it out? ( I understand it's not always the case but it does tend to be the case)
Being smart does usually separate you from people not on your mental level. And the smarter you are the more separation. So I figure that may play a part.

 I mean how does an idiot and a genius converse? Not well I would guess.

In the Enders shadow series there was a concept known as Anton's key. There were genes that could be switched on that would produce a child that was a super genius. But the cost was a dramatically shortened life, a life as an extremely small baby only to die of giantism at the end.

Do you think extreme intelligence comes with a price?

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 11:18:13 AM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		The mind is much like a see-saw: if one end is up high, the other is down low.

I am a supergenius. I was not born that way, but I was born with the aptitude. It was through Divine intervention - at my own request - that other parts of my mind were annihilated, thus enabling what remained of my mind to become dominant, unleashing the supergenius. Lacking the lost parts of my mind, I am severely mentally handicapped in the functionalities pertaining to those lost parts.

I have no idea what ailed the latest spree killer. Perchance he was raised as a spoiled kid. Perchance his mind was fucked up by mind altering medication. I dunno.

But I do know that in order to drive a car one requires a driver's licence. It does make sense to introduce parenting licenses, not so?

And I do am opposed to the use and/or abuse of mind altering medications. They are unnatural and ought to be prohibited. An aspirin usually suffices in case of a headache.

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"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 12:12:23 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Do you think extreme intelligence comes with a price


He wasn't a genius as a matter of fact. He was autistic and was having problems dealing with it. On top of that he had a nutcase of a mother. At least in my opinion anyway. Why would a well adjusted woman collect assault rifles with multiple 30 round clips...glocks and sigs and shotguns glore? Why would she purposely encourage her mentally ill child to learn how to use her arsenal of weapons?

His actions, at least in my opinion, have nothing to do with his intelligence and all to do with mental illness and his rearing.

Many people are mentally ill and do not mass murder anyone let alone children so there was a good portion of evil in this man boy as well. The environment of his home life…his illness…and his problems dealing with his social interactions festered the evil in his mind.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/17/2012 12:14:25 PM >

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 12:42:32 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Do you think extreme intelligence comes with a price


He wasn't a genius as a matter of fact. He was autistic and was having problems dealing with it. On top of that he had a nutcase of a mother. At least in my opinion anyway. Why would a well adjusted woman collect assault rifles with multiple 30 round clips...glocks and sigs and shotguns glore? Why would she purposely encourage her mentally ill child to learn how to use her arsenal of weapons?

His actions, at least in my opinion, have nothing to do with his intelligence and all to do with mental illness and his rearing.

Many people are mentally ill and do not mass murder anyone let alone children so there was a good portion of evil in this man boy as well. The environment of his home life…his illness…and his problems dealing with his social interactions festered the evil in his mind.

Butch


Asperger's is classified as a disorder. I don't think it's the same as a mental illness.

I guess it would depend on your definition of genius.

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 1:28:15 PM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		I am Adam Lanza's Mother
It's time to talk about mental illness

Friday’s horrific national tragedy—the murder of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in New Town, Connecticut—has ignited a new discussion on violence in America. In kitchens and coffee shops across the country, we tearfully debate the many faces of violence in America: gun culture, media violence, lack of mental health services, overt and covert wars abroad, religion, politics and the way we raise our children. Liza Long, a writer based in Boise, says it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

“I can wear these pants,” he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.
“They are navy blue,” I told him. “Your school’s dress code says black or khaki pants only.”

“They told me I could wear these,” he insisted. “You’re a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!”
“You can’t wear whatever pants you want to,” I said, my tone affable, reasonable. “And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You’re grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school.”

I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.

A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn’t have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

We still don’t know what’s wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.

At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he’s in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He’s in a good mood most of the time. But when he’s not, watch out. And it’s impossible to predict what will set him off.

Read more: http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 1:36:30 PM   
needlesandpins


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Status: offline 		i'm thinking that as far as the shooter is concerned no-one has a fricking clue what went wrong, nore will they now he's dead.

what the fuck does it matter anyway? nothing now will bring back the kids and others he killed. nothing changes what he did. trying to figure it out just to try and make what he did less horrendous won't work. it doesn't make any difference where the actual blame lays. the fact is that he killed people that can not be brought back.

as for genious and what it may cause as a lack in other areas.....it would seem that it can cause problems in other areas of social life, but i wouldn't say it's a constant.

needles

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 1:56:57 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

i'm thinking that as far as the shooter is concerned no-one has a fricking clue what went wrong, nore will they now he's dead.

what the fuck does it matter anyway? nothing now will bring back the kids and others he killed. nothing changes what he did. trying to figure it out just to try and make what he did less horrendous won't work. it doesn't make any difference where the actual blame lays. the fact is that he killed people that can not be brought back.


I don't think trying to figure it out is attempting to make it any more or less horrendous. What he did, he did.


needles


And trying to figure it out might help others who might be in the same place. Besides I wasn't really focusing on him. Just the fact that the smartest of us tend to be the most fucked up.

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 2:05:45 PM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404


quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

i'm thinking that as far as the shooter is concerned no-one has a fricking clue what went wrong, nore will they now he's dead.

what the fuck does it matter anyway? nothing now will bring back the kids and others he killed. nothing changes what he did. trying to figure it out just to try and make what he did less horrendous won't work. it doesn't make any difference where the actual blame lays. the fact is that he killed people that can not be brought back.


I don't think trying to figure it out is attempting to make it any more or less horrendous. What he did, he did.


needles


And trying to figure it out might help others who might be in the same place. Besides I wasn't really focusing on him. Just the fact that the smartest of us tend to be the most fucked up.


I don't see how you can make a generalization like that. Perhaps that is your issue, but for those of us who are very smart, I fail to see how being intelligent can fuck you up. I believe being very smart can make it difficult to meet others who are very smart, but a smart person knows how to navigate their social environment so that they can speak to anyone on their level. It a choice to do so.

I also do not consider autism to be a mental illness. My 9 year old nephew is autistic and he is pretty much brilliant. He has a developmental learning disability, not a mental illness.

In the case of the shooter, no one knows the true story. I believe we need to pay more attention to mental illness and get help as early as possible.

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 2:14:25 PM   
needlesandpins


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Status: offline 		the thing to know is that on some level we are all fucked up. just that the majority don't go around shooting innocent people.

you can't learn anything from this other than some sort of system let him down. his mother seems to be an idiot if the press is to be believed. now they are dead there is nothing to learn because no-one can talk to them. hence it's all just speculation.

there are many high brained functioning people in the world that live very easily. there are some that don't. that's all there is to it really.

let's face it, when you can have someone claim to be a super genious, but their writings show they are anything but that.....who the hell knows.

i'm no super brain. the highest my iq has ever come out at is 168. i can make friendships, but i prefer not to have lots of people around me. i struggle in large social situations. i could tick the boxes of alot given on the autism scale. i still wouldn't go out and kill innocent children.

needles



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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 2:52:12 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
And trying to figure it out might help others who might be in the same place. Besides I wasn't really focusing on him. Just the fact that the smartest of us tend to be the most fucked up.

I don't see how you can make a generalization like that.

In fact, according to my analysis of the human mind, Blacksword is likely to be correct. You do not think that the lot of us here on this website is 'normal', do you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
Perhaps that is your issue, but for those of us who are very smart, I fail to see how being intelligent can fuck you up.

Whereas I am not very smart, having a low IQ, and yet whereas I do comprehend this relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
a smart person knows how to navigate their social environment so that they can speak to anyone on their level. It a choice to do so.

Mm. Whereas I cannot navigate the social environment. I am plain uncouth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
I also do not consider autism to be a mental illness. My 9 year old nephew is autistic and he is pretty much brilliant. He has a developmental learning disability, not a mental illness.



(I told you that I am very rude.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
In the case of the shooter, no one knows the true story. I believe we need to pay more attention to mental illness and get help as early as possible.

Quite.

< Message edited by Rule -- 12/17/2012 2:53:00 PM >

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 2:56:09 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
I'm no super brain. the highest my iq has ever come out at is 168.

I am impressed. I have a very low IQ.


_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 3:41:37 PM   
needlesandpins


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Status: offline 		don't be, my lowest is 128.

needles

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 3:47:16 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404


Just the fact that the smartest of us tend to be the most fucked up.

When I was in college, I lived in the Honors dorm. There's one fact that place taught me. The line between genius and insanity is a narrow line indeed and some folks dance back and forth across it constantly.

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 4:06:35 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Autism can exasperate a child and contribute to mental illness…Can you or blacksword really say this young man was sane?

I like many in this word have had to deal with an artisatic child... I am telling you they can be very violent and even kill...and if that is not mentally ill I don't know what is...Of course there are degrees of everything.

Autism causing his flawed social interaction was most certainly a contributing factor to his insanity don’t you think?

Butch


_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 4:15:18 PM   
SacredDepravity


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Status: offline 		I think we are confusing "smart" and "high IQ" forms of intelligence. Some have both. Some have one or the other. Some have neither. Most people that I would consider smart have an average to above average IQ typically along with common sense and social skills. A person with high IQ have specific academic, analytical, and abstract learning skills that are measured by the usual standard IQ test to an extremely high degree. If a person lacks "smarts", then social isolation and trouble with everyday problems will exist. If a person lacks "high IQ", then the person will have limited ability to understand and observe concepts on higher conceptual and theoretical levels and, in lower levels, result in diminished ability to learn new or more difficult concepts resulting in social isolation. Moderate "smarts" and IQ leaves a person most able to interact with a larger number of people. Extreme smarts can even lead to debilitating cynicism. Extreme IQ leaves few people on either end who will be comfortable interacting with the person. My observations only.

Further, there is a cross use of mental illness and developmental disorders. This is a basic delineation in the DSM, so really not worth getting into here. Both, however, are more closely correlated with being victim of violence and self harm on the whole than violence directed at others. I really wish people would quit trying to find some concept to blame such as mental illness, gun control policies, etc. What I would like to see is more people actually interacting with each other and acting upon concerns as they arise. This man didn't just blow up out of the clear blue sky. People were uninvolved, detached, in denial, or simply unwilling to get their hands dirty. And this man had his own obligation to seek help for himself (not easy to do, but still). How about talking about self responsibility and taking care of one's own health and well being? Those are not so easy to talk about because they get pretty personal for folks pretty quickly. Can we blame a person for being sick? For not getting help with their illness? For visiting the consequences of their condition upon others? Can we blame society (and by extension ourselves) for being so cold, callous, and frankly too pc to protect itself and its citizens both victims and perpetrators? Hurts too much. So what's the discussions about mental illness and gun control again?

SD
who won't be revisiting this post as I have spent too much emotional energy as it is

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 4:19:49 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

Does that kind of mental capacity come with negatives to even it out?


No, but society is quick to provide some, usually.

quote:

Being smart does usually separate you from people not on your mental level. And the smarter you are the more separation. So I figure that may play a part.


Being smart doesn't seperate you. Other people seperate you.

The smarter you are, the more likely they will seperate you, and the more they will seperate you.

That does play a part.

quote:

I mean how does an idiot and a genius converse? Not well I would guess.


I've had many gainful conversations with idiots. Formally speaking, I'm a genious. So, no inherent problem in my experience.

Self insight, incidentally, is more of a problem than intellect in this regard, and even that is hardly a major factor.

quote:

Do you think extreme intelligence comes with a price?


No, I think it inspires social friction and petty behaviors in others.

That, in turn, can lead to an impaired outcome, but then extreme intelligence also permits one to put the flaws of others into perspective, a sort of "forgive them, for they know not what they do" thing, so one can have a corrective element there that reduces negativity in the outcome, though socialization may be seriously impaired in some cases because of the limited availability of positive interaction.

What do you learn when people impose all their flaws to the max without sharing any of their good sides?

Also, note that this problem varies dramatically between communities, social strata, etc.

I became the cheery optimist I am today from exposure to positive interactions.

Thanks to that, I came to realize human lives have a value.

I've always had empathy, and quite a lot of it, but until I was introduced to the positive sides of humanity, previously hidden to me, I only had keen observations about the negative sides, often demonstrated vividly and extensively, and I had seen nothing redeeming. The unpleasant conclusion prior to that was that humanity was a disease that I wasn't sure it was right not to cure, though I was never callous enough to be the one to do it, as I never lacked compassion in the first place. Had I, however, lacked compassion or had poor impulse control... well, fortunately, that wasn't the case.

Something to ponder when raising kids, really: good is something you learn from exposure.

Be the good you want to see in the world.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 4:23:56 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

He wasn't a genius as a matter of fact. He was autistic and was having problems dealing with it. On top of that he had a nutcase of a mother. At least in my opinion anyway. Why would a well adjusted woman collect assault rifles with multiple 30 round clips...glocks and sigs and shotguns glore? Why would she purposely encourage her mentally ill child to learn how to use her arsenal of weapons?


This lack of insight is rather depressing to read.

The mother had a son with difficulties, and she tried to share with him one of her passions, in the hopes it might brighten his life. Being autistic is easy to deal with, compared to dealing with the world around you, and autism doesn't exclude genious (though it isn't implied, either, contrary to some popular myths about savantry and the like).

Simple fact of life: if you're different, the other kids will hand you the short end of the stick.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 4:25:04 PM   
Spiritedsub2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

...Just the fact that the smartest of us tend to be the most fucked up.

Wow. You have any authority for your "fact"?

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 4:26:11 PM   
epiphiny43


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Status: offline 		People discussing IQ as a single quality or metric need to get better educated. Current research delineates 7 different mental capacities (Last time I looked, but I've been busy), which may be associated or very uneven. Almost no one is superior in all.
What passes for 'street smarts' is probably emotional intelligence. What used to be IQ is verbal abilities with a math component tossed into the tests. And most tests don't measure absolute ability but compare how well one does against similarly aged people, assuming faster learning is 'smarter'. People often have Lots of one of those and almost none of the other? Spatial perception is a separate ability (You aren't a machinist without lots of that), and so on.
People with very highly developed abilities in one area are not noted for having all the others as well. To the extent they may be way off the chart compared to the rest of us, they seem remote or 'unbalanced'. Which is assuming the rest of us are sane. A difficult position to defend.

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RE: Mental balance as humans - 12/17/2012 4:43:24 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		If we look across violent acts in society generally I suspect the range of intelligence of we would see for killers actually matches the curve for the population as a whole. In other words, I doubt intelligent people are responsible for a greater number of deaths then their less intelligent peers.

What I suspect is more highly correlated with being a killer is psychopathy. And then within the psychopathic group, perhaps there is correlation of violent crime to IQ.

I mean, all of the intelligent people I know are not out there committing violent crime like murder (and I know a lot of smart of people). In fact, I'm trying to think of whether I know anyone who has committed a violent crime personally in all the circles that I travel in, and other than one suicide, the answer is no. If intelligent people are more likely to commit violent crime, because of my academic and professional experiences, I really should know more people who have. And so why aren't university professors constantly pulling out AK-47s and killing everyone in sight? Just saying.

I think there is research on serial killers and IQ (finding no correlation).

I really think the construct you want is psychopathy.

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