The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims.

The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 12:58:40 PM)
Killing children is a tragic commentary on society, that one person can actually be so mentally unstable to believe it is a solution to a problem. The weapons used are just the tool, not the cause. James von Brunn used a 22 at the Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting. The Westboro church congregation claims it is because we support gay rights in America. I have seen blogs where pro life groups claim it is because Abortion is legal. Some other Christian Extremists claim it is because prayer is no longer allowed in schools. What about the shooting in shopping malls or theaters? Are those the result of no prayer in schools or gay tolerance or abortion in America? To all these religion based reasons for these tragedies, I say it is bullshit. And I am a religious person. As a religious person I can give you the only religious reason that these tragedies happened. God gave us free will. The perpetrators of these crimes made the conscious choice to commit them because god gave them the ability to make that choice. There, your religious reason. Now for the real reasons, or possible reasons. Is society the reason, I would say partially, we, as a society do nothing to treat mental illnesses for those with low incomes. And the partially caveat? We cannot force mental treatment on a person unless they are a danger to themselves or the general public, which means society cant do shit till it is too late. Are violent video games, tv shows, movies and the violence on the news to blame? Depends on which group of psychological experts you ask. My personal opinion is that as a society we have become so used to violent images in media that it takes something this tragic to phase us. Has mental illness shown an increase. If you look at statistics, they seem to imply it has, but I am not sure of that since there is no stigma to asking for mental help in today's America. Has the rate of violent crimes increased, well yes, but so has population. In small towns, violent crimes occur so rarely as to be nearly non-existent. Is it the availability of guns, they are too easy to get, in my opinion, and only because of the problem of identity theft and straw purchases. In my opinion, if a person wants to kill a lot of people, they are going to do it, rather it be with a gun, setting a place on fire and making it impossible for the people inside to escape, or use something like anthrax or plague. Granted the last two would take a high degree of sophistication and training to accomplish, but random acts of violence and killing are not restricted to the average individual. I can hunt just as easily with a bow and crossbow, a gun just makes it easier. Before the invention of the bow, primitive man used a notched stick to throw a stone pointed arrow, the Aztecs used em against the Spanish. Before that it was the stone pointed spear. In the US the problem has been guns, in other countries, bombs. What I want to know is why? Why does a person feel so desperate that they think this is the only answer?

tazzygirl -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 1:49:03 PM)
Researchers at Children's Hospital Boston analyzed reports from the National Hospital Ambulatory Medical Care Survey of U.S. emergency department visits from 1999 to 2007. In those eight years, they counted nearly 186,000 children, from newborns to 19-year-olds, who had been treated for firearm injuries. About 8,300 of those injuries proved fatal. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/guns-wound-30-percent-kids-study-finds/story?id=14741514#.UM-SLuTAfv4

tj444 -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 2:06:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Is society the reason, I would say partially, we, as a society do nothing to treat mental illnesses for those with low incomes. The mother of the shooter was well off, from what i have read, her ex hubby told her when they divorced that she would be taken care of and never have to work another day in her life.. she even would loan other people money at times.. so lack of money wasnt the issue in why her son did what he did..

sexyred1 -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 2:08:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Is society the reason, I would say partially, we, as a society do nothing to treat mental illnesses for those with low incomes. The mother of the shooter was well off, from what i have read, her ex hubby told her when they divorced that she would be taken care of and never have to work another day in her life.. she even would loan other people money at times.. so lack of money wasnt the issue in why her son did what he did.. That is true. She got $265,000 in alimony. That is more than adequate to help her son. I know single mothers with 3 jobs who have to take care of disabled children.

jlf1961 -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 2:12:45 PM)
Tazzy, you are missing my point. What is it that makes any individual from Timothy McVeigh to this guy so desperate that this is the only solution they see? Everyone and if there is alien life monitoring this planet's radio and tv broadcasts know how he did it. I want to know why. I want to know why anyone thinks that killing a lot of people is going to solve anything. Contrary to what you might believe, I value life in all its forms. When I see a deer in a meadow I dont wish I had a gun, unless it is hunting season, I will sit and watch it for hours or until it moves on. I have often watched in awe when a foal or calf was born. For four years my job, my profession was to take life by being the solo shooter that fires one shot. The ultimate in combat terror. Now I hunt each season to supplement my meat costs. I dont keep trophies, and there are local craftsmen that use the bone, hide and gut for natural products, from bow strings to deer hide coats, skirts and a couple of really nice wedding dresses. I want to know why someone can kill a person that is no threat to them.

meatcleaver -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 2:14:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 The mother of the shooter was well off, from what i have read, her ex hubby told her when they divorced that she would be taken care of and never have to work another day in her life.. she even would loan other people money at times.. so lack of money wasnt the issue in why her son did what he did.. Paying for mental healthcare is a barrier because healthcare workers earn their income from people remaining mentally ill. There is a conflict of interest between the patient and the professional which doesn't happen in a universal healthcare system. I remember after my brother spent a couple of years with his company in the US. He said you'll get checked and tested for every medical problem you can think of as long as you are healthy and can pay for the premiums but the moment you are too ill to pay, you have to fight for treatment. He was fine, his company was paying but he said as much as he liked the US, it was private medical care that made him decide to bring his family uop in Europe. But he was right about payment creating a psychological barrier.

Rule -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 2:16:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 What is it that makes any individual from Timothy McVeigh to this guy so desperate that this is the only solution they see? Please do not bring up Timmy, who is a rather special case.

tj444 -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 2:31:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 The mother of the shooter was well off, from what i have read, her ex hubby told her when they divorced that she would be taken care of and never have to work another day in her life.. she even would loan other people money at times.. so lack of money wasnt the issue in why her son did what he did.. Paying for mental healthcare is a barrier because healthcare workers earn their income from people remaining mentally ill. There is a conflict of interest between the patient and the professional which doesn't happen in a universal healthcare system. I remember after my brother spent a couple of years with his company in the US. He said you'll get checked and tested for every medical problem you can think of as long as you are healthy and can pay for the premiums but the moment you are too ill to pay, you have to fight for treatment. He was fine, his company was paying but he said as much as he liked the US, it was private medical care that made him decide to bring his family uop in Europe. But he was right about payment creating a psychological barrier. whose "universal health care" tho? you are in Germany, I am a Canadian (short term in the US), I would say our health care systems are different from each other and who knows how the one in the US will actually end up since the insurance corps, HMOs, rich doctors, drug corps are all still running the show in the US even after universal health care kicks in on 2014.. its a question I have on just how the heck its gonna work.. so I do agree with you, the US health system as it is now and likely will be in the future just sucks big time..

jlf1961 -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 2:33:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 The mother of the shooter was well off, from what i have read, her ex hubby told her when they divorced that she would be taken care of and never have to work another day in her life.. she even would loan other people money at times.. so lack of money wasnt the issue in why her son did what he did.. Paying for mental healthcare is a barrier because healthcare workers earn their income from people remaining mentally ill. There is a conflict of interest between the patient and the professional which doesn't happen in a universal healthcare system. I remember after my brother spent a couple of years with his company in the US. He said you'll get checked and tested for every medical problem you can think of as long as you are healthy and can pay for the premiums but the moment you are too ill to pay, you have to fight for treatment. He was fine, his company was paying but he said as much as he liked the US, it was private medical care that made him decide to bring his family uop in Europe. But he was right about payment creating a psychological barrier. I disagree, the mental health professionals I deal with due to my bipolar disorder seem to be working very hard at helping me remain stable and not hit either a manic of depressive cycle. When I am manic I dont sleep for days, do things like rearrange my room a few times, clean the kitchen floor with a scrub brush, and so far this time I have redone the lights on the Christmas tree a half dozen times. This time I have even cooked meals that have a long prep time, with the soup, main course and desert. We have gourmet left overs in the freezer. I dont have small batch recipes. And I suspect that my sister and niece are going to beat me unconscious sometime in the near future. About two months ago they took me off the mood stabilizer due to signs of some rather severe side effects from long term use. I have to see a different doctor for the med revue since my therapist cannot prescribe. So I have to wait a week to get in. Now public mental health agencies are under staffed, under funded and overworked. We could have the best mental health service in the world if the government would take a tenth of what is spent on defense and put it into mental health treatment.

Powergamz1 -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 2:45:10 PM)
None of the above. quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Killing children is a tragic commentary on society, that one person can actually be so mentally unstable to believe it is a solution to a problem. The weapons used are just the tool, not the cause. James von Brunn used a 22 at the Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting. The Westboro church congregation claims it is because we support gay rights in America. I have seen blogs where pro life groups claim it is because Abortion is legal. Some other Christian Extremists claim it is because prayer is no longer allowed in schools. What about the shooting in shopping malls or theaters? Are those the result of no prayer in schools or gay tolerance or abortion in America? To all these religion based reasons for these tragedies, I say it is bullshit. And I am a religious person. As a religious person I can give you the only religious reason that these tragedies happened. God gave us free will. The perpetrators of these crimes made the conscious choice to commit them because god gave them the ability to make that choice. There, your religious reason. Now for the real reasons, or possible reasons. Is society the reason, I would say partially, we, as a society do nothing to treat mental illnesses for those with low incomes. And the partially caveat? We cannot force mental treatment on a person unless they are a danger to themselves or the general public, which means society cant do shit till it is too late. Are violent video games, tv shows, movies and the violence on the news to blame? Depends on which group of psychological experts you ask. My personal opinion is that as a society we have become so used to violent images in media that it takes something this tragic to phase us. Has mental illness shown an increase. If you look at statistics, they seem to imply it has, but I am not sure of that since there is no stigma to asking for mental help in today's America. Has the rate of violent crimes increased, well yes, but so has population. In small towns, violent crimes occur so rarely as to be nearly non-existent. Is it the availability of guns, they are too easy to get, in my opinion, and only because of the problem of identity theft and straw purchases. In my opinion, if a person wants to kill a lot of people, they are going to do it, rather it be with a gun, setting a place on fire and making it impossible for the people inside to escape, or use something like anthrax or plague. Granted the last two would take a high degree of sophistication and training to accomplish, but random acts of violence and killing are not restricted to the average individual. I can hunt just as easily with a bow and crossbow, a gun just makes it easier. Before the invention of the bow, primitive man used a notched stick to throw a stone pointed arrow, the Aztecs used em against the Spanish. Before that it was the stone pointed spear. In the US the problem has been guns, in other countries, bombs. What I want to know is why? Why does a person feel so desperate that they think this is the only answer?

slvemike4u -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 2:52:10 PM)
It is real important to you that we discuss everything BUT the tool ,isn't it ? Tell you what,everything else is on the table...but first and foremost we must make access to these "tools" a great deal more restricted. Than ,in the silence of the peace, we can look at all of the other contributing factors. But nobody,least of all the President I watched last night,is going to for a moment put aside the discussion we need to have about those damm "tools"

jlf1961 -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 3:53:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u It is real important to you that we discuss everything BUT the tool ,isn't it ? Tell you what,everything else is on the table...but first and foremost we must make access to these "tools" a great deal more restricted. Than ,in the silence of the peace, we can look at all of the other contributing factors. But nobody,least of all the President I watched last night,is going to for a moment put aside the discussion we need to have about those damm "tools" I have proposed ideas to make those tools harder to get to. I would even go so far as to make the ammo for those tools a hell of a lot harder to get as well. Mike, you dont need anything, and in some states, not even an id to get ammo. Unless it is in large quantities, it is simply another item on the register tape. Say you do get your wish and semi auto military style weapons are made illegal to own in the US, something I doubt will happen. The most I can see is another ban of military style semi automatic weapons, meaning no new ones made, and no more imported, it will not affect the hundreds of thousands already in possession of gun owners in the states or the probable million or so in American warehouse waiting to be sold. They were harder to get during the first ban, and a bit more expensive, but they were still bought and sold in the US. One example of a weapon that was on the initial ban and still not allowed to be imported is the Dragunov, a soviet era sniper rifle, 10 round max load, long and for anything other than hunting or sniping, absolutely useless. There are about 25000 of these weapons in the US, there are probably a couple hundred thousand AK47's in the US today. The damn thing was made in the tens of millions. they are the most plentiful semi or full auto assault weapon in the world. The United States military lost 190,000 of them in Iraq, and they were in military warehouses. Get the ban in place, you have stopped new ones from hitting the market and no legal importation of existing ones. What are you going to do about the half million or million of them already in the country? Hell there are probably a few million AK's setting in American warehouses that would not be covered under the ban. And if you want to get real technical, there are semi automatic pistols you can slap a 15 or 20 round mag in them and go to town. Hell the .50 cal desert eagle has an optional 15 round mag. And there is no way the government is going to ban handguns. That is why I started the "lets make a deal" thread. As a gun owner, ex military AND former cop, I know the futility in trying to get guns off the streets. I am not saying there is not a problem, there is. And it is two fold. One part of the problem is the tool, and that part of the problem can be controlled and made moot. I have repeatedly said how you can do that. Get rid of *every* high cap magazine in the US for both rifle and semi automatic pistol. If you have to have cops go to every registered owner's home to do a search to confiscate the damn things do it. Need to pay for the operation, stop giving money to the National Endowment of the Arts, or take some of those hundreds of billions of dollars we spend on defense each year and put it to where it would do some fucking good for every American. Put bullet proof windows, metal detectors and armed security in every school, put a strong police presence around every school when class are dismissed and when students are arriving so some sick son of a bitch cant pull a "DC sniper" incident on school kids going to or leaving school. Put more cops on the streets and more ATF agents intercepting illegal imports of any fucking gun. Do something to keep the kid from going to school with mommy and daddy's fucking automatic pistol and half a dozen 10 round mags. I have replied to you a few times agreeing that there is a gun problem. I will give you the tool. Fine, the weapon is part of the problem. Now would you and tazzy and everyone else talking about doing something about these rifles tell me how in the fuck are we going to keep any gun in anyone's hands out of the schools?

vincentML -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 6:35:12 PM)
quote: What I want to know is why? Why does a person feel so desperate that they think this is the only answer? I can't give you a definitive answer jlf but you might find this link interesting. It is a list of rampage killings that occurred worldwide at schools. You will notice that most, with the notable exception of those in China, committed suicide. There's a clue, hey? Curious about the Chinese, no? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_School_massacres

thishereboi -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 6:48:24 PM)
I read the quote by Morgan Freeman but can't find it right now. But I agree with him. I think they are targeting kids because they think that will get them the most media. Maybe we should make it illegal to mention their names in the news. If they know they won't be remembered or even known by anyone else, it might help.

thishereboi -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 6:53:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Researchers at Children's Hospital Boston analyzed reports from the National Hospital Ambulatory Medical Care Survey of U.S. emergency department visits from 1999 to 2007. In those eight years, they counted nearly 186,000 children, from newborns to 19-year-olds, who had been treated for firearm injuries. About 8,300 of those injuries proved fatal. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/guns-wound-30-percent-kids-study-finds/story?id=14741514#.UM-SLuTAfv4 I wonder how many of the owners of those guns were prosecuted in any way?

thishereboi -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 6:59:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 The mother of the shooter was well off, from what i have read, her ex hubby told her when they divorced that she would be taken care of and never have to work another day in her life.. she even would loan other people money at times.. so lack of money wasnt the issue in why her son did what he did.. Paying for mental healthcare is a barrier because healthcare workers earn their income from people remaining mentally ill. There is a conflict of interest between the patient and the professional which doesn't happen in a universal healthcare system. I remember after my brother spent a couple of years with his company in the US. He said you'll get checked and tested for every medical problem you can think of as long as you are healthy and can pay for the premiums but the moment you are too ill to pay, you have to fight for treatment. He was fine, his company was paying but he said as much as he liked the US, it was private medical care that made him decide to bring his family uop in Europe. But he was right about payment creating a psychological barrier. whose "universal health care" tho? you are in Germany, I am a Canadian (short term in the US), I would say our health care systems are different from each other and who knows how the one in the US will actually end up since the insurance corps, HMOs, rich doctors, drug corps are all still running the show in the US even after universal health care kicks in on 2014.. its a question I have on just how the heck its gonna work.. so I do agree with you, the US health system as it is now and likely will be in the future just sucks big time.. Yes it does, but you forgot CMS (center for medicaid/medicare services) which initiates many of the health care standards that the others follow.

thishereboi -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 7:01:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u It is real important to you that we discuss everything BUT the tool ,isn't it ? Tell you what,everything else is on the table...but first and foremost we must make access to these "tools" a great deal more restricted. Than ,in the silence of the peace, we can look at all of the other contributing factors. But nobody,least of all the President I watched last night,is going to for a moment put aside the discussion we need to have about those damm "tools" You don't think there are enough threads about guns already? But go ahead and blame the gun and don't look at anything else that might have been a factor in this. If it furthers your agenda, it's all good.

jlf1961 -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/17/2012 7:42:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi I read the quote by Morgan Freeman but can't find it right now. But I agree with him. I think they are targeting kids because they think that will get them the most media. Maybe we should make it illegal to mention their names in the news. If they know they won't be remembered or even known by anyone else, it might help. I posted the quote which Morgan Freeman denied making on Sunday. It was a hoax, he never said it. However, who ever came up with it made a hell of a lot of sense though. I just wonder why the actual author didnt own up to it.

thishereboi -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/18/2012 4:38:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi I read the quote by Morgan Freeman but can't find it right now. But I agree with him. I think they are targeting kids because they think that will get them the most media. Maybe we should make it illegal to mention their names in the news. If they know they won't be remembered or even known by anyone else, it might help. I posted the quote which Morgan Freeman denied making on Sunday. It was a hoax, he never said it. However, who ever came up with it made a hell of a lot of sense though. I just wonder why the actual author didnt own up to it. That is strange. But I agree, it does make sense.

Moonhead -> RE: The reasons behind Mass Shootings at any location with any age victims. (12/18/2012 5:39:36 AM)
it's an excellent idea, though it does conjure up an image of a shooter's solicitor suing the Police department that arrested them to have their name and body count released, doesn't it?

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