Then Amend the Constitution (Full Version)

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FatDomDaddy -> Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 9:21:43 PM)

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

It's seems pretty simple to me, regulated but not infringed.

So tell me why the people who are against law abiding Americans owning fire arms, not putting their mouths, pens, money and efforts into Amending the US Constitution???

And just to be clear, I neither own nor do I desire to own a fire arm.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 9:23:07 PM)

Regulated doesnt mean laws in that context...

But ignorance is ever the pablum of anti gunners.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 9:39:02 PM)

I am not an anti gunner... I am a full supporter of the 2nd Amendment and "regulated" means exactly that, the State can regulate but not infringe upon the inalienable right to keep and bear arms.

But I am tired of all anti 2nd rhetoric... if The People don't like the 2nd, the People can amend it and there is nothing the NRA or the Tea Party or any other boogie man one wants to throw out could do about it.





slvemike4u -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 9:42:46 PM)

Point out some instances of "anti-second rhetoric ?
Point out anyone who is talking about anything more than "regulation",which you yourself said is perfectly in line with the intent of the 2nd.
Ignorance is not limited to one side of this debate,as evidenced by the preceding posts.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 9:47:47 PM)

There are 1000's of "regulated" gun control laws on the books...1000's

I really wish the Anti 2nd and the anti gun crowds would at least be a little bit intellectually honest...





tazzygirl -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 9:55:00 PM)

Decision
The Supreme Court held:[43]

(1) The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.

(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.

(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.

(c) The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment. Pp. 28–30.

(d) The Second Amendment’s drafting history, while of dubious interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms. Pp. 30–32.

(e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the late 19th century also supports the Court’s conclusion. Pp. 32–47.

(f) None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 , nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 , refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 , does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54.

(2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.

(3) The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition – in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute – would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional. Because Heller conceded at oral argument that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement. Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56–64.

The Opinion of the Court, delivered by Justice Scalia, was joined by Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr. and by Justices Anthony M. Kennedy, Clarence Thomas and Samuel A. Alito Jr.[44]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

Surprise surprise... I have no issue with this ruling. Nor do the changes I proposed alter the courts ruling.




jlf1961 -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 9:57:28 PM)

Mike is not anti 2nd amendment, as I first thought. Understanding that it made it easier to see his point. He wants semi automatic military style weapons heavily regulated or another ban on them put in place.

In another thread I posted what the ban considered an assault weapon, I dont know if he read it, he was the one I was thinking about when i put it up. I also pointed out that 900 weapons were exempted.

And reading the original ban, I discovered all but one of mine is exempted and how to make the one that aint exempted.

As far as amending the constitution, with the exception of California where there is a severe gun problem, the western states wont ratify the change, so it would fail.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 9:59:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Point out some instances of "anti-second rhetoric ?



Here's one...

Forget the assault weapons ban, it’s time to ban guns completely

Want another... Even though dressed up semi-automatic rifles are not assault weapons but just dressed up semi-automatic rifles

Rahm Emanuel calls for nationwide assault-weapons ban

More???

It's Time to Ban Semiautomatic Weapons

OH... here's one you'll like...

Rupert Murdoch Wants Stricter Gun Laws After Newtown


How many more do you need???




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 10:04:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Mike is not anti 2nd amendment, as I first thought. Understanding that it made it easier to see his point. He wants semi automatic military style weapons heavily regulated or another ban on them put in place.


So as long as it doesn't LOOK like a military weapon, it's OK to own?

I mean what does THAT say?






tazzygirl -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 10:04:54 PM)

2 are blogs.... they are entitled to their opinions, but they are only two.

NY Mag and the Daily Caller? Come on, those are little better than blogs themselves.

I have seen very few on these boards call for a total ban on gun ownership. Give us a bit more credit than that.




slvemike4u -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 10:06:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

There are 1000's of "regulated" gun control laws on the books...1000's

I really wish the Anti 2nd and the anti gun crowds would at least be a little bit intellectually honest...



I've learned to just hope for honesty,plain simple run of the mill honesty.
Asking or expecting the intellectual version is,I have found,a bridge too far for most on the right,certainly too much from the pro gun crowd.
But I digress.
Which "books" are you referring to state laws,local ordinances ?
Are you referring to regulations written by the NRA itself ?
I mean if we are going to be "intellectually honest" we have to admit that those "regulations" are nothing more than a joke co-written by the manufacturers themselves and sponsored by their bought and paid for lackeys




slvemike4u -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 10:10:34 PM)

FDD I am not in the habit of answering for the words of others.
I had thought you were referring to posters here,on these pages calling for a ban on guns.
If I misunderstood you I do apologize,but again I'm not about to answer for others....so maybe you should write Rahm.....lol




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 10:13:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

2 are blogs.... they are entitled to their opinions, but they are only two.

NY Mag and the Daily Caller? Come on, those are little better than blogs themselves.

I have seen very few on these boards call for a total ban on gun ownership. Give us a bit more credit than that.

quote:

Point out some instances of "anti-second rhetoric ?




"Point out some instances of "anti-second rhetoric ?"

So I did... and there are 1000's more and New York Magazine has been around since the mid 60's




jlf1961 -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 10:14:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Mike is not anti 2nd amendment, as I first thought. Understanding that it made it easier to see his point. He wants semi automatic military style weapons heavily regulated or another ban on them put in place.


So as long as it doesn't LOOK like a military weapon, it's OK to own?

I mean what does THAT say?





It means he is not familiar with semi automatic weapons that were not banned the last time with the same capabilities. In the last ban there were 900 specific weapons that were exempted, and just about every one of them have close to the same rate of fire.




slvemike4u -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 10:18:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Mike is not anti 2nd amendment, as I first thought. Understanding that it made it easier to see his point. He wants semi automatic military style weapons heavily regulated or another ban on them put in place.


So as long as it doesn't LOOK like a military weapon, it's OK to own?

I mean what does THAT say?




Okay I'm qualified to weigh in here,I mean it is me you guys are discussing,right ?
I am quite sure I am much more concerned about the performance characteristics of a weapon than how it looks.
But I do understand what you are doing ,or trying to do FDD.....marginalize and belittle.
Make legitimate concerns,legitimate anger at recent events seem small and petty and you can silence the dissenting voice.
tsk,tsk,tsk...really FDD.
Is that the best you got ?




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 10:22:37 PM)

You don't even need to be a gunsmith to make a basic 22 shoot like a so called "Assault Weapon"




slvemike4u -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 10:23:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Mike is not anti 2nd amendment, as I first thought. Understanding that it made it easier to see his point. He wants semi automatic military style weapons heavily regulated or another ban on them put in place.


So as long as it doesn't LOOK like a military weapon, it's OK to own?

I mean what does THAT say?





It means he is not familiar with semi automatic weapons that were not banned the last time with the same capabilities. In the last ban there were 900 specific weapons that were exempted, and just about every one of them have close to the same rate of fire.

While I am far less familiar than you with these weapons Jeff....please do not assume to know what I am and am not aware of,or familiar with.
You keep spewing out the minutia,I'll keep doing what I do,okay
I try not to speak for you, you try not to speak for me,okay?




tazzygirl -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 10:24:11 PM)

Oh ffs.. we are talking about kids shooting kids. We arent discussing sharp shooters killing people.

If you cant see the difference, I cant help you.




jlf1961 -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 10:26:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Mike is not anti 2nd amendment, as I first thought. Understanding that it made it easier to see his point. He wants semi automatic military style weapons heavily regulated or another ban on them put in place.


So as long as it doesn't LOOK like a military weapon, it's OK to own?

I mean what does THAT say?




Okay I'm qualified to weigh in here,I mean it is me you guys are discussing,right ?
I am quite sure I am much more concerned about the performance characteristics of a weapon than how it looks.
But I do understand what you are doing ,or trying to do FDD.....marginalize and belittle.
Make legitimate concerns,legitimate anger at recent events seem small and petty and you can silence the dissenting voice.
tsk,tsk,tsk...really FDD.
Is that the best you got ?



Mike forget you dont like me right now, but please read the post where I answered you and even put the wording in that would get every gun you want, with no way to make exemptions like they did last time.

Take both points I made and send it to your congressman and senator.

That wording is the only way you are going to get what you want off the market.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/17/2012 10:28:55 PM)

Before the ban you could buy an ak47, after the ban you couldnt. You had to buy an ak47 with an ugly stock.

Oh, and it didnt ban ones you already owned.





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