RE: Then Amend the Constitution (Full Version)

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PowerXXXchange -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 2:57:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack


quote:

ORIGINAL: PowerXXXchange

The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit to happiness are "unalienable rights" with which all human beings are endowed by their Creator . AS WAS THE RIGHT TO DEFENSE

The right to keep or bear arms is given by the society WRONG, see above , as represented by government, for the purpose of maintaining a defense force.



That is the lamest distortion and the stupidest interpretation possible. WHEN did a government ever need permission to create its own standing army? Whether a tyranny, oligarchy, etc. this was always done. and if you dimly maintain that this was the provision to allow the GOVERNMENT to set up an army, then perhaps you can explain why the power for an army and a navy is granted in Art 1 Section 8. There is constitutional provision for a GOVERNMENT army AND an Amendment for a GOVERNMENT militia?

Bullshit. The Federal government is empowered to raise the armed forces and the PEOPLE (even written in the very amendment) are empowered to bear arms in the event they have need against a foreign or domestic (read: government) enemy. You have no understanding of history, of the document you cite or of the people's intent when written.


Your response has bit of truth but generally is on a completely different topic. And you have answered your own question. The Constitution is the social contract that gives the federal government the permission to do or not do, including to maintain an army.

Sorry, but there is no enumerated right to "defense" as such in the constitution, only in statute and common law. Stand your ground is just a Florida statute, not a "right"

So now, please calm down and explain the connection your rant has to do with repealing the Second Amendment. I'm for taking away the peoples RIGHT to UNCONDITIONALLY bear arms, because it is incompatible with crazy angry suicidal people on the streets, capiche?

PxC




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 3:31:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PowerXXXchange
The right to keep or bear arms is given by the society WRONG, see above , as represented by government, for the purpose of maintaining a defense force.




No, it was framed and passed to to ensure the security of a free state.... not the defense of a free state but the security there of. The framers of the Bill of Rights knew exactly what they were writing and it had nothing to do the common defense of The United States as Article 1 Section 8 empowered the US Government to raise and provide for a Navy and raise and support Armies. Nor did it have anything to do with hunting or self protection. (Those would have been a given.)

The sole purpose for the 2nd was to ensure the Security of a Free United States from without or within.





mnottertail -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 3:37:02 PM)

Actually, the firt 10 amendments known as the bill of rights were a compromise on what some saw as a very strong federal constitution which left the states hanging.  (that old among the several).

In any case there is no need to amend the constituion to cut down mag sizes, its been done before.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 4:15:09 PM)

The point of the thread is to ask the anti gun and gun banning why they are not using thier resourses to amend the 2nd!




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 8:30:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Actually, the firt 10 amendments known as the bill of rights were a compromise on what some saw as a very strong federal constitution which left the states hanging.  (that old among the several).

In any case there is no need to amend the constituion to cut down mag sizes, its been done before.



And what is you have a ten round magazine?

Tell me... how fast could low end journeyman shooter fire off just five, ten round mags? Probably less than ten seconds. A neophyte could easily fire three of them in ten seconds.

And all I hear here is "I don't wanna take away people's guns but... fill in the black: we need less, bullets, magazines, rifles that look military, inexpensive weapons, and on and on and on...


If the second is archaic.... why not push to amend???






SimplyMichael -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 8:40:56 PM)

People who beat their wives should not own guns...





slvemike4u -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 8:45:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: PowerXXXchange
The right to keep or bear arms is given by the society WRONG, see above , as represented by government, for the purpose of maintaining a defense force.




No, it was framed and passed to to ensure the security of a free state.... not the defense of a free state but the security there of. The framers of the Bill of Rights knew exactly what they were writing and it had nothing to do the common defense of The United States as Article 1 Section 8 empowered the US Government to raise and provide for a Navy and raise and support Armies. Nor did it have anything to do with hunting or self protection. (Those would have been a given.)

The sole purpose for the 2nd was to ensure the Security of a Free United States from without or within.







slvemike4u -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 8:46:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: PowerXXXchange
The right to keep or bear arms is given by the society WRONG, see above , as represented by government, for the purpose of maintaining a defense force.




No, it was framed and passed to to ensure the security of a free state.... not the defense of a free state but the security there of. The framers of the Bill of Rights knew exactly what they were writing and it had nothing to do the common defense of The United States as Article 1 Section 8 empowered the US Government to raise and provide for a Navy and raise and support Armies. Nor did it have anything to do with hunting or self protection. (Those would have been a given.)

The sole purpose for the 2nd was to ensure the Security of a Free United States from without or within.





FDD ,solely in the context of the above argument,please tell me(or explain to me) what you see the difference is between "security" and "defense" ?




slvemike4u -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 8:47:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: PowerXXXchange
The right to keep or bear arms is given by the society WRONG, see above , as represented by government, for the purpose of maintaining a defense force.




No, it was framed and passed to to ensure the security of a free state.... not the defense of a free state but the security there of. The framers of the Bill of Rights knew exactly what they were writing and it had nothing to do the common defense of The United States as Article 1 Section 8 empowered the US Government to raise and provide for a Navy and raise and support Armies. Nor did it have anything to do with hunting or self protection. (Those would have been a given.)

The sole purpose for the 2nd was to ensure the Security of a Free United States from without or within.



FDD ,solely in the context of the above argument,please tell me(or explain to me) what you see the difference is between "security" and "defense" ?


(screwed up the quote feature the first time around,so sorry...lol)




slvemike4u -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 8:48:53 PM)

Wow,laptop acting screwy...or I just made some mistakes....lol
My apologies.




jlf1961 -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 8:49:09 PM)

quote:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.




slvemike4u -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 8:55:26 PM)

Good god do we have to parse that awful sentence again(by awful I mean it isn't even grammatically correct).
Can we,for a few hundred posts dissect those few words ad infanatum ?
Please,please,please [:)]




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 8:55:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


FDD ,solely in the context of the above argument,please tell me(or explain to me) what you see the difference is between "security" and "defense" ?


As I said... The the common defense had already been provide for in Article 1 Section 8.

There was no need for the framers to use the 2nd Amendment to provide for defense.





jlf1961 -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 8:56:34 PM)

Was just trying to figure out where it said something about defense.




slvemike4u -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 9:18:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


FDD ,solely in the context of the above argument,please tell me(or explain to me) what you see the difference is between "security" and "defense" ?


As I said... The the common defense had already been provide for in Article 1 Section 8.

There was no need for the framers to use the 2nd Amendment to provide for defense.



You aren't answering the question FDD.
Whats the difference,in the Framers mind,between security and defense ?
And no,I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing....I just want to understand what you are saying here




slvemike4u -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 9:20:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Was just trying to figure out where it said something about defense.

Well that's what I'm asking FDD...I read security and I think that refers to the common defense,especially when linked with "well regulated militia "




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 9:49:23 PM)

"...the security of a free state"

The Framers are saying the Government must be kept in check by the governed and the best way to do that is to allow the governed to keep and bear arms.

The 2nd Amendment is a fail safe if you will. It was almost immediately put to test in The Whiskey Rebellion and while proving the Federal Government's Authority to put down that insurrection, the Whiskey Rebellion also showed the common man, the Federal Government was not going to take away the tools of such insurrections.

The quotes from that time are endless...

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside... Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them...." Thomas Paine

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed." Patrick Henry

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people" George Mason

"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People." Tench Coxe

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States." Noah Webster.

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." and Alexander Hamilton.

"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

"Americans need never fear their government because of the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation." James Madison

"To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..." Richard Henry Lee

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable...The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference--they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." George Washington.






FatDomDaddy -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 9:58:05 PM)

And I will add that Federalists and Republicans alike were exactly on point and in step with each other on this issue...




tazzygirl -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 10:26:14 PM)

And the military wasnt to be a permanent part of the US. They were so suspicious of a standing army that it was supposed to be raised for only 2 years at a time. Interesting how that time frame coincides with the House elections.

The power to declare war is given to Congress... not the President... anther proving point that they wanted as many in agreement as possible, not a dictator making that decision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_Branch_Petition

Something many may want to read.

"There are instruments so dangerous to the rights of the nation and which place them so totally at the mercy of their governors that those governors, whether legislative or executive, should be restrained from keeping such instruments on foot but in well-defined cases. Such an instrument is a standing army." --Thomas Jefferson to David Humphreys, 1789. ME 7:323

"I do not like [in the new Federal Constitution] the omission of a Bill of Rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for... protection against standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:387

"Nor is it conceived needful or safe that a standing army should be kept up in time of peace for [defense against invasion]." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:334

"Standing armies [are] inconsistent with [a people's] freedom and subversive of their quiet." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Lord North's Proposition, 1775. Papers 1:231

"The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force." --Thomas Jefferson to Chandler Price, 1807. ME 11:160

"A distinction between the civil and military [is one] which it would be for the good of the whole to obliterate as soon as possible." --Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786. ME 17:90

"It is nonsense to talk of regulars. They are not to be had among a people so easy and happy at home as ours. We might as well rely on calling down an army of angels from heaven." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1814. ME 14:207

"There shall be no standing army but in time of actual war." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776. Papers 1:363

"The Greeks and Romans had no standing armies, yet they defended themselves. The Greeks by their laws, and the Romans by the spirit of their people, took care to put into the hands of their rulers no such engine of oppression as a standing army. Their system was to make every man a soldier and oblige him to repair to the standard of his country whenever that was reared. This made them invincible; and the same remedy will make us so." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814. ME 14:184

"Bonaparte... transferred the destinies of the republic from the civil to the military arm. Some will use this as a lesson against the practicability of republican government. I read it as a lesson against the danger of standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Adams, 1800. ME 10:154

Amazing how we have a standing army now, against the wishes of the men who wanted us all armed. The purpose of arming all men was to not have a standing army.




tazzygirl -> RE: Then Amend the Constitution (12/19/2012 10:30:41 PM)

The quotes are from here....

http://www.famguardian.org/Subjects/Politics/ThomasJefferson/jeff1480.htm

He goes on to talk about the "militia"





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