RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools

RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 10:14:23 AM)
quote: See, you and I don't disagree on that fundamental issue highlighted in red. HOWEVER, the problem is the absurd premise that this epidemic can be solved or even treated with firearms regulation. It simply cannot work. We have over 100 years worth of accumulation of "modern" semi and fully automatic weapons in private collections and in the black market. Out of curiosity... all these killings... all these school shootings... Where did THOSE guns come from? Private collections or black market? Who did these killings? Gang bangers? Criminals? Or Someone who wasnt "quite right"?

Pulpsmack -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 10:18:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: See, you and I don't disagree on that fundamental issue highlighted in red. HOWEVER, the problem is the absurd premise that this epidemic can be solved or even treated with firearms regulation. It simply cannot work. We have over 100 years worth of accumulation of "modern" semi and fully automatic weapons in private collections and in the black market. Out of curiosity... all these killings... all these school shootings... Where did THOSE guns come from? Private collections or black market? Both. quote: Who did these killings? Gang bangers? Criminals? Or Someone who wasnt "quite right"? Anybody who kills other than under a legal privilege (cop on duty, self defense, defense of others) is a criminal, so ALL of them are criminals. SOME Were criminals before the massacre, some were not. In terms of the school shootings, I would say ALL would fall under "not quite right".

tazzygirl -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 10:27:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic [image]http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/9679_523606040996925_1647356131_n.jpg[/image] Oh, Lucy... how I adore you!

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 10:28:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack So, we have gone from the initial point of "Here's the problem, what's the working solution?" to "Here's the problem... what is the most ass backwards 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' solution to address it?" We also had forced sterilization of the subjectively defined "mentally retarded" and the physical enslavement of of certain peoples here in this country's past. Are those up for consideration in this thread along with every stupid, repugnant "solution swallows the problem as the greater of both evils" now? If nothing your point only underscores mine... you can't "restrict" these weapons as proposed to have any meaningful impact on the issue... you must instead turn the Constitution on its ear, rob the entire population of its right to bear arms, confiscate legal property and do a voo doo chant in hopes the nut bags don't figure out how to get black market hardware to unleash on the completely defenseless population. Bravo. I, and many countless millions of others, don't see it as "robbing the entire population of its rights to bear arms" either. I also don't see it an "ass-backwards" solution either. People here legally buy their homes and own it for years and years, sometimes generations. When the highways commission want to build a new motorway, they just slap a compulsory purchase order on you and you have to get out or you'll get raised to the ground like the house. You just can't see it can you. What was given can just as easily be taken away if it is abused. And if it's legal property now, if they change the laws it will no longer be legal property - it will be reclassified as illegal contraband. Don't try to bring in other irrelevant subjects as a comparison. It is gun crime and gun-related mass killings we are dealing with. Nothing else. You just can't stand the fact that for the first time since the 2nd was written, you might have your toys taken away from you because a load of stupid citizens can't look after them as they should. The 2nd was written for a purpose - a purpose which no longer fits the modern US lifestyle; so scrap it. Don't blame the anti-gun groups - blame the countless irresponsible gun owners that cause most of this shit in the first place. The NRA haven't been very good at doing this and they have failed miserably to educate and control irresponsible owners. What do you do when there's a fight between two kids over a toy?? You remove the toy and difuse the fight before even more kids get hurt. And yes, I see both sides of the argument as kids fighting over toys. If the toy is going to cause a fight or hurt others - take that toy away. No discussions, no replacement toys, no more arguments. When you manage to take your blinkers off, you might just realise that a country WITHOUT guns is a better and safer country than a country with guns.

tazzygirl -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 10:33:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: See, you and I don't disagree on that fundamental issue highlighted in red. HOWEVER, the problem is the absurd premise that this epidemic can be solved or even treated with firearms regulation. It simply cannot work. We have over 100 years worth of accumulation of "modern" semi and fully automatic weapons in private collections and in the black market. Out of curiosity... all these killings... all these school shootings... Where did THOSE guns come from? Private collections or black market? Both. quote: Who did these killings? Gang bangers? Criminals? Or Someone who wasnt "quite right"? Anybody who kills other than under a legal privilege (cop on duty, self defense, defense of others) is a criminal, so ALL of them are criminals. SOME Were criminals before the massacre, some were not. In terms of the school shootings, I would say ALL would fall under "not quite right". Which one was "both"? Columbine, all legally purchased. Sandy Hook, legally purchased. Virginia Tech, Legally Puchased. West Nickles Mines School, legally purchased. Honestly, which killings were the result of stolen guns? And I dont mean stolen from family members who left the killer easy access. quote: Anybody who kills other than under a legal privilege (cop on duty, self defense, defense of others) is a criminal, so ALL of them are criminals. SOME Were criminals before the massacre, some were not. In terms of the school shootings, I would say ALL would fall under "not quite right". Ah, now you want to play semantics? What happened with dealing with the mentally ill? You cant play both sides of that fence.

Pulpsmack -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 10:50:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 I, and many countless millions of others, don't see it as "robbing the entire population of its rights to bear arms" either. I also don't see it an "ass-backwards" solution either. Try and understand this in all earnestness. In terms of an idealogical argument (how would you and I build a Utopia), you have a view and a voice. In terms of your judgment over the affairs of a country and culture to which you do not belong, You have no voice, and in the case of 99% of "guest commentators" and 100% posting here, you have no clue about the important inner workings of this country and culture. You may consider yourself intelligent, but (conceding that possibility for the argument) natural intellect does not automatically grant the person intelligence of foreign affairs. Your commentary shows this. You can take this for what it is or you can take this personally, but this is the fact of the matter. quote: People here legally buy their homes and own it for years and years, sometimes generations. When the highways commission want to build a new motorway, they just slap a compulsory purchase order on you and you have to get out or you'll get raised to the ground like the house. You just can't see it can you. What was given can just as easily be taken away if it is abused. And if it's legal property now, if they change the laws it will no longer be legal property - it will be reclassified as illegal contraband. Go look at the election results following the '94 Crime Bill. It was political suicide. Then consider the pattern of Federal agents handling "whackos" in 92 (Ruby Ridge) and 93 (Waco) then contrast that to the Domestic response by Mc Veigh in '95. You think the country has problems with whackos randomly shooting classrooms. Imagine that 1% of whackos reacting to the dismissal of the Second and Fourth Amendments. You clearly don't understand. Legally, there is no way in hell to accomplish it...(through successive generations of ignorance past my lifetime, perhaps... today, never -Mark my words). Do it illegally and you roll the dice at the worst moment in American history... when the economy is in the tank and there are hostile foreign organizations hell bent on destroying this country. The LAST thing the government needs is a 3rd prong of vulnerabilty. quote: Don't try to bring in other irrelevant subjects as a comparison. It is gun crime and gun-related mass killings we are dealing with. Nothing else. You just can't stand the fact that for the first time since the 2nd was written, you might have your toys taken away from you because a load of stupid citizens can't look after them as they should. The 2nd was written for a purpose - a purpose which no longer fits the modern US lifestyle; so scrap it. So says some smug character with 100% opinion and zero credibility. quote: Don't blame the anti-gun groups - blame the countless irresponsible gun owners that cause most of this shit in the first place. The NRA haven't been very good at doing this and they have failed miserably to educate and control irresponsible owners. What do you do when there's a fight between two kids over a toy?? You remove the toy and difuse the fight before even more kids get hurt. And yes, I see both sides of the argument as kids fighting over toys. If the toy is going to cause a fight or hurt others - take that toy away. No discussions, no replacement toys, no more arguments. um speaking of BS distractions... - a gun is not a toy, and for all the blame people assign, they are used in turn to save lives as well. If this was not the case, the disarmament would have to extend to the police as well. - those affected are not squabbling children. They are responsible adults, some of whom have children they are serious about protecting - most importantly (something you islanders don't get) the state is not the nanny that knows best. It is a servant of the people, not its father. quote: When you manage to take your blinkers off, you might just realise that a country WITHOUT guns is a better and safer country than a country with guns. And show me a country without guns. Show me ONE.

jlf1961 -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 10:53:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Which one was "both"? Columbine, all legally purchased. Sandy Hook, legally purchased. Virginia Tech, Legally Puchased. West Nickles Mines School, legally purchased. Honestly, which killings were the result of stolen guns? And I dont mean stolen from family members who left the killer easy access. Yes they were all legally purchased, in the case of Columbine, the adult girlfriend of one of the shooters bought two guns and turned them over to the shooters, so I would consider that a straw purchase, since it fits the definition. Virginia Tech, legally purchased because Cho's mental illness record was sealed and therefore did not show up on the back ground check. Failure of the system.

Pulpsmack -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 10:59:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Which one was "both"? Columbine, all legally purchased. Sandy Hook, legally purchased. Virginia Tech, Legally Puchased. West Nickles Mines School, legally purchased. Honestly, which killings were the result of stolen guns? And I dont mean stolen from family members who left the killer easy access. The weapons were not legally purchased in Columbine the duo were convicted of felony theft and the sale of a firearm is illegal. Also you can "not mean what you wish, but that doesn't change the status of a stolen weapon (whether from a family, neighbor, or random home invasion) quote: Anybody who kills other than under a legal privilege (cop on duty, self defense, defense of others) is a criminal, so ALL of them are criminals. SOME Were criminals before the massacre, some were not. In terms of the school shootings, I would say ALL would fall under "not quite right". Ah, now you want to play semantics? What happened with dealing with the mentally ill? You cant play both sides of that fence. What do you mean dealing with the mentally ill and playing both sides of the fence?

tazzygirl -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 10:59:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Which one was "both"? Columbine, all legally purchased. Sandy Hook, legally purchased. Virginia Tech, Legally Puchased. West Nickles Mines School, legally purchased. Honestly, which killings were the result of stolen guns? And I dont mean stolen from family members who left the killer easy access. Yes they were all legally purchased, in the case of Columbine, the adult girlfriend of one of the shooters bought two guns and turned them over to the shooters, so I would consider that a straw purchase, since it fits the definition. Virginia Tech, legally purchased because Cho's mental illness record was sealed and therefore did not show up on the back ground check. Failure of the system. I wont argue either of those, Jeff. In the case of Columbine, the males who provided them guns were convicted of giving guns to minors. The girl was never charged.

jlf1961 -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 11:00:05 AM)
Why is it that every time someone brings up eliminating guns as the answer they point to Australia. After eliminating guns, did they not also have to eliminate swords, and are there not now regulations on knives? How about another example of the opposite. Israel, lax gun laws, lots of privately owned guns for its population and low gun crime rate. Of course the biggest thing you have to worry about in Israel is the occasional suicide bomber on the street or on a bus, the incoming arty and rocket fire, and the possibility of a gas attack from a neighbor.

tazzygirl -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 11:01:00 AM)
quote: Anybody who kills other than under a legal privilege (cop on duty, self defense, defense of others) is a criminal, so ALL of them are criminals. SOME Were criminals before the massacre, some were not. In terms of the school shootings, I would say ALL would fall under "not quite right". There are criminals who are not mentally ill. There are mentally ill people who end up being criminal. I would think the difference is apparent.

Pulpsmack -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 11:02:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Why is it that every time someone brings up eliminating guns as the answer they point to Australia. After eliminating guns, did they not also have to eliminate swords, and are there not now regulations on knives? How about another example of the opposite. Israel, lax gun laws, lots of privately owned guns for its population and low gun crime rate. Of course the biggest thing you have to worry about in Israel is the occasional suicide bomber on the street or on a bus, the incoming arty and rocket fire, and the possibility of a gas attack from a neighbor. It is because those in favor of banning/restricting guns here are reduced to "in Austraila..." and their own emotional sensibilities. They have no other card to play.

Pulpsmack -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 11:04:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Anybody who kills other than under a legal privilege (cop on duty, self defense, defense of others) is a criminal, so ALL of them are criminals. SOME Were criminals before the massacre, some were not. In terms of the school shootings, I would say ALL would fall under "not quite right". There are criminals who are not mentally ill. There are mentally ill people who end up being criminal. I would think the difference is apparent. So is there a criminal/mentally ill distinction for those who go into a school and massacre students wholesale in your model?

tazzygirl -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 11:06:07 AM)
guilty by reason of insanity. Now, how many none insane criminals have attacked schools?

jlf1961 -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 11:07:33 AM)
Let's look at this from another perspective, shall we. In 2011 the Unites States spent 695.7 billion dollars on defense, 58% of the world spending on defense to be exact. We are spending just about the same amount of our GDP as we did during the cold war. Who the fuck are we afraid of? Say we cut that amount back to 300 Billion. That frees 395.7 billion dollars for school security and enforcement of reasonable and workable (In reference to American Culture) gun control laws. Now people, explain how to best use that money for the purposes I laid out.

Pulpsmack -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 11:31:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl guilty by reason of insanity. Now, how many none insane criminals have attacked schools? You tell me, as you are making that distinction.

Pulpsmack -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 11:33:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Let's look at this from another perspective, shall we. In 2011 the Unites States spent 695.7 billion dollars on defense, 58% of the world spending on defense to be exact. We are spending just about the same amount of our GDP as we did during the cold war. Who the fuck are we afraid of? Say we cut that amount back to 300 Billion. That frees 395.7 billion dollars for school security and enforcement of reasonable and workable (In reference to American Culture) gun control laws. Now people, explain how to best use that money for the purposes I laid out. Respectable attempt to being this OT. See my earlier quote of your post for my generalized approach, that would be suggested (e.g. $X for hiring of police on duty, $Y for work/educational programs on mental health, $Z on indigent services, etc).

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 11:39:35 AM)
Sorry Jeff. I just don't feel that throwing even more guns into the arena will stop such events. I just don't buy into the theory that more guns means a better defence in these circumstances. It just doesn't work and the models in the UK and Australia have proven that fact. That is also why it comes up a lot - it disproves the theories that the NRA and pro-gun supporters love to band about. As I pointed out in another thread a comment by a US gun law specialist on the BBC news, the chances of having your gun loaded, ready, and aimed at the shooter at the point of entry is lower than the chances of winning the National Lottery and wouldn't stop the killer. So your "defence" person would be shot and probably killed before he can even draw his weapon. Also, in the recent Friday killings, the shooter was wearing a bullet-proof vest. So even if your galant defender was lightning-quick and managed to get a round or two off, unless they got lucky, the shooter would still have gone about his macabre business. If the killer couldn't readily get hold of the gun(s) in the first place, it couldn't happen the way it did. Sure, he may have used a knife. But that isn't likely to kill as many people or as easily as with a gun. No matter how you slice it up, if the guns weren't there for him to take in the first place, this tragic event, and others before it, just wouldn't have taken place. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. But you pro-gun supporters just bitch endlessly that you don't want your toys taken away from you. If the NRA and pro-gun groups had managed to educate and instill a sense of responsibility and vigilance into the millions of irresponsible gun owners, we wouldn't be having this debate now. And that's the crux of the matter. The NRA and sensible gun owners have thus far failed to do that in decades and that is why something drastic needs to be done now. Throwing more guns at the problem isn't the answer - that is blatantly obvious. So the US needs a completely new approach to the problem - not more guns. And why not follow the UK or Australian example?? It works. Simple... You won't give up your guns. Someone has to take them from you. And if that means new laws and a drastic change of the 2nd (or even the abolition of it), then so be it. Countries evolve and ancient laws need to evolve with them, not stay stuck in the wild west when the 2nd was written.

tazzygirl -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 11:47:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl guilty by reason of insanity. Now, how many none insane criminals have attacked schools? You tell me, as you are making that distinction. Thank you, I will. This thread is about safety in our schools. Those who have committed mass murder in our schools are not of the criminal but sane element. There is no money in our schools to warrant a criminal to break in. Not enough drugs, most of the criminal element is supplying there and they dont want to cut off their source of income, nor deal with the added charge of selling in a school, so they get the kids to do it and leave them alone. Who is causing the murderous harm in our schools are those who go off the deep end with most people saying "I never thought he would have done this". So, in short, its not criminals who are killing in our schools. Adding criminals get their guns illegally is not germane to this particular argument.

DomKen -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 12:09:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Why is it that every time someone brings up eliminating guns as the answer they point to Australia. After eliminating guns, did they not also have to eliminate swords, and are there not now regulations on knives? How about another example of the opposite. Israel, lax gun laws, lots of privately owned guns for its population and low gun crime rate. Of course the biggest thing you have to worry about in Israel is the occasional suicide bomber on the street or on a bus, the incoming arty and rocket fire, and the possibility of a gas attack from a neighbor. It is because those in favor of banning/restricting guns here are reduced to "in Austraila..." and their own emotional sensibilities. They have no other card to play. You asked for an example and you get one you have no answer for so you attempt to handwave away the facts. Both in the US, UK and Australia when acess to weapons with large magazines was severely restricted the sorts of mass murders under discussion here declined. In the US when access to weapons with large magazines was increased mass shotings increased.

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