RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 4:49:52 PM)

I will say that more died at the hands of more inexperienced shooters because those shooters had vastly higher powered weapons.



DomKen -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 4:50:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


More people died period.

A lot of that can be traced to the use of high capacity magazines that were illegal under the ban. Seems the ban worked.



Precisely the ill-formed speculation I made the effort to avoid and expected you to exploit.

So since you have made these statements suggesting factually that this could be traced to the use of high capacity mags that were illegal under the ban, am I to understand that you have studied the facts of all 42 of these incidents extensively and you are speaking from this research, or is it that you are talking out of your arse?


For example, do you know for a fact that the '94-'04 massacres had fewer casualties because they did not use high cap mags where as the '04 - on massacres did?

Do you know the cases well enough to rule out the variables such as more shooters were more inexperienced in the earlier shootings, or younger, or planned more poorly, or had more good fortune of more timely law enforcement intervention? I believe you haven't a clue and are blindly following the numbers to prove an ungrounded point.

Yes, I will agree that more deaths are worse than less deaths (even if fewer deaths came from more incidents) but what I will not agree to is that more deaths were DIRECTLY AND EXCLUSIVELY caused by hardware that was used in the later killings and not used in the earlier killings.

You lied about the ban and I corrected your lie. If you have an argument not based on untruths please present it.



Pulpsmack -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 4:53:57 PM)

please explain how I lied about the ban. and then explain how you corrected it.

So far all I got is more death = the gun's fault (and if you insist on pursuing that line of argument, be prepared to back it up with factual information about the shooters and circumstances of all the shootings that occured within both periods)



Pulpsmack -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 4:54:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I will say that more died at the hands of more inexperienced shooters because those shooters had vastly higher powered weapons.


you will "say" that (from a point of knowledge) or you will "speculate" that?



jlf1961 -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 5:00:08 PM)

hey we have some one from outside the US that understands the difference between responsible and irresponsible gun owners..

Of course their solution seems to be unchanged, remove the guns from private ownership.

By that logic, if my 5 year old grandson and 10 month old great nephew are in the room with the christmas tree and one pulls the lights off the tree, I need to punish both of them.

Gee not only are Americans gun toting, we dont punish our children right, by the logic presented.



Rule -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 5:08:08 PM)

FR

I have identified two other causes of spree killings. One are hands: all weapons used in spree murders were fired by hand. If one of the hands of each person is amputated, we must reasonably expect that the number of spree murders will be halved.

However, upon futher cogitation I realized that all hands are controlled by the brains. And since the brains reside in the head, I am confident to predict that if all heads are amputated the number of spree murders will be reduced to zero. [8D]



Pulpsmack -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 5:14:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

FR

I have identified two other causes of spree killings. One are hands: all weapons used in spree murders were fired by hand. If one of the hands of each person is amputated, we must reasonably expect that the number of spree murders will be halved.

However, upon futher cogitation I realized that all hands are controlled by the brains. And since the brains reside in the head, I am confident to predict that if all heads are amputated the number of spree murders will be reduced to zero. [8D]


The average IQ is about 100 and many of the most elaborate and horrific attrocities were spawned by those with high-capacity brains, capable of 135, 150 or even more IQ. Since the average individual can get along fine at 100 and since such horrific potential exists with evil genius...

Perhaps there should be adequate justification to keep excess IQ, or perhaps we should enact "reasonable regulative lobotomies" in order to prevent atrocites from happening.



tazzygirl -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 5:16:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I will say that more died at the hands of more inexperienced shooters because those shooters had vastly higher powered weapons.


you will "say" that (from a point of knowledge) or you will "speculate" that?


I say that based upon the weapons found at the scenes.



Pulpsmack -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 5:26:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I will say that more died at the hands of more inexperienced shooters because those shooters had vastly higher powered weapons.


you will "say" that (from a point of knowledge) or you will "speculate" that?


I say that based upon the weapons found at the scenes.



So then I would first ask you (or whomever professes knowledge of all incidents involved) of the 27 "ban" incidents, what percentage of those shootings had an "assault weapon" and/or a high capacity pistol, and of the 15 "non" ban incidents, what percentage of THOSE shootings had the same?

I believe we also need to know the motivation of the choice of weapon(s) in each (e.g. what was readily available, what was most effective, etc).

That would at least shape some credibility into the statement. Nevertheless, the other factors proposed cannot simply be ignored. It would be important to determine which had experience, age, disposition, physical fitness, and skill of each shooter as well as his/their planning and what if any lucky variables intervened and disrupted these plans.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 5:43:48 PM)

Just to add fuel to the fire...i forgot that Montana legalized citizens making machinegins and told the feds to stuff it, just like the states that legalized pot.

There are states that are not going to go along and since the country has moved so far to the right where obama is seen as a liberal, its going to get interesting



tazzygirl -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 5:49:52 PM)

quote:

So then I would first ask you (or whomever professes knowledge of all incidents involved) of the 27 "ban" incidents, what percentage of those shootings had an "assault weapon" and/or a high capacity pistol, and of the 15 "non" ban incidents, what percentage of THOSE shootings had the same?


I never said anything about the bans or what happened before or after.

quote:

I believe we also need to know the motivation of the choice of weapon(s) in each (e.g. what was readily available, what was most effective, etc).


Some were, Im sure, what was available... however as more info comes out, we may discover the Bushmaster may have been the best in mom's arsenal. However, with others the guns were purchased. It could have been that they were purchased with finance in mind. Couple that with the biggest majority, if not all, had at least one semi in thei possession...

Definitely not a group into the nostalgia of shooting. They chose with the primary goal of maximum damage.

quote:

That would at least shape some credibility into the statement. Nevertheless, the other factors proposed cannot simply be ignored. It would be important to determine which had experience, age, disposition, physical fitness, and skill of each shooter as well as his/their planning and what if any lucky variables intervened and disrupted these plans.


physical fitness..; from photos, they all looked fit.

Experience... since most, if not all, came from either military backgrounds or familes with guns, I can safely say that all had some experience with guns. Some professional level.... many just basic.

Age.... most, especially lately, below 25.

The rest... no idea... would say most were considered loners that didnt quite fit in.




DomKen -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 5:53:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

please explain how I lied about the ban. and then explain how you corrected it.

So far all I got is more death = the gun's fault (and if you insist on pursuing that line of argument, be prepared to back it up with factual information about the shooters and circumstances of all the shootings that occured within both periods)

You claimed it did not result in fewer school children's deaths.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 6:03:10 PM)

Most pistols will take a 20/30 round mag, even a 1911...

The only guns your idiot rules wouldnt ban are single shot shotguns, double barrels shotguns and older style hunting rifles with floorplates. Oh, and revolvers...

Many cowboy guns will hold over 10 rounds and some almost twice that.

So then some loon is going to walk down a hall, toss in a molotov cocktail and kill 100 kids. Then we will have to ban high capacity glass jars....



Kirata -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 6:11:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Then we will have to ban high capacity glass jars....

And so we should. The damn things are designed for no other purpose than to break and give you a fucking cut, and sooner or later they will do it. And now they're being used as molotov cocktails! No rational person can give me a reason for continuing to allow high capacity glass jars to be manufactured or imported into the United States. People who worship high capacity glass jars will just have to get used to it.

K.



tazzygirl -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 6:13:11 PM)

I agree. Lets go biodegradable plastic!



jlf1961 -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 6:14:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Most pistols will take a 20/30 round mag, even a 1911...

The only guns your idiot rules wouldnt ban are single shot shotguns, double barrels shotguns and older style hunting rifles with floorplates. Oh, and revolvers...

Many cowboy guns will hold over 10 rounds and some almost twice that.

So then some loon is going to walk down a hall, toss in a molotov cocktail and kill 100 kids. Then we will have to ban high capacity glass jars....



Lever action rifles hold over ten rounds.

Most cowboy guns are revolvers, holding six.



jlf1961 -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 6:21:05 PM)

Okay, we have a lot of arguments going on, ranging from non Americans saying ban all guns to what gun can do what.

I have decided that a gun control discussion is pointless.

First, the government needs to deregulate all firearms, including military surplus tank mounted cannons.

Then, repeal the act that prevents US troops from being deployed on American soil

Bring every american soldier back to the states

Deploy all of them in schools and inner cities.



lovmuffin -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 9:58:48 PM)

Finally jif1961 A logical solution.



epiphiny43 -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 10:39:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I can't speak for anybody else about Dave's notion, but I do have a worrying thought about how this (hypothetical) armed guard might respond in the event of being fired by the school board.

This!
'Going Postal' isn't about invasions from Mars. It's about neighbors and acquaintances losing touch when overstressed. Rare? It only takes one. Just like in Newtown.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Remember good ol' Ben Franklin? The man wasn't the worst observer of events or human nature. I'm not seeing much intelligent thought on the downsides of most of the proposals to 'protect our children'. I don't think the police state necessary to disarm America is in any way less danger to our children than a gun crazy every few years. What might work isn't discussed because actually changing the nation's culture is Slow, Hard and calls for effort and participation by all. What is offered is for someone else to do something to yet other people so we can go back to our isolated lives feeling we've made someone fix everything.
I would support actually rationalizing the background check system, expecting that to make much difference is pretty naive. (Incredibly naive?) Notice the over $100 Billion illegal drug industry importing or manufacturing precisely the sort of contraband people propose our police eliminate from society with Gun Control? But the realistic benefits might be worth the money. Certainly worth trying. Expecting there not to be huge holes in that system is delusional.



tazzygirl -> RE: Lets get serious about gun control and safety in our schools (12/18/2012 10:42:31 PM)

I keep saying... hit the wallets. Make gun owners responsible.



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