RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (Full Version)

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Edwynn -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/27/2012 6:39:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ermood
quote:

Not the poorest by any measure. Sure, we have poor people in the United States, but at least they still have access to the basic necessities (although the system is starting to crack). I'll concede that there are some countries in Europe which may surpass the United States in several factors measuring quality of life, but compared to the world as a whole, I would still say that the U.S. is still in the top tier - not even close to the poorest.


This is what i always get from people, when i say the poorest country on earth i actually mean that on paper they are.
The US is on paper the poorest country of the earth, but (see biggest economy) they have the economic strength to recover themselfs from that.
For example, most countries would be bankrubt already 10 times when they would have the same debt as the US.



Facts, facts, and damned facts.


You're not even close, and yes I'm sure "that's all you get from people" who actually look at the numbers.

How bothersome that must be.



MariaB -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/27/2012 7:35:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

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Israel/Palestine can be put down to the UN, more than british involvment.


The pre-UN Balfour Declaration notwithstanding.

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Thats even without the fact we kicked out the Ottoman Empire.


And in subsequence drew a completely new post-WWI map that we see today that had not a thing to do with the history of the region or any concern of the people living there, but everything to do with the interests of the political and oil interests of Britain, France, and Std. Oil and BP.

quote:

Ireland is down to the whole Protestant/Catholic split in Europe as a whole. you need to understand one event to explain how the other arose.



Slavery and starvation of Ireland by Britain existed even before King John, in any case several centuries before Martin Luther or Henry VIII came along. I suppose we should take it that Irish letters and culture got quite a boost from these repeated and incessant episodes, rather than anything inherent to their existing abilities or potential.


But, as Disreali said;

"What we learn from history is that we do not learn from history."




You miss the salient points. If you go back through history, nothing is as it is today. Ireland, for instance, has a long interconnected history with England. The problems Tweaks referred to stem from the Protestant/Catholic schism. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

If you wish to debate the ins and outs of early history of these isles, feel free to start a thread and I will oblige. We can start with the Plantagenets and the Holy See`s Papal Bull, or we can go back as far as the Picts and the Celts.



Count me in if you start such a thread!



kdsub -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/27/2012 8:18:04 AM)

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As an American, I might wonder why we embarked on this mission to spread democracy and save the world from itself. The rest of the world doesn't really appreciate it,


This I believe is wrong...and history proves it. If as you say the rest of the world does not appreciate our efforts then why do so many strive to emulate our form of government? The world as almost completely changed by our example...and for the better.

But I will agree or perhaps say our message is the right one... our freedoms and individual opportunity that inspires enslaved peoples of the world, but our methods were tainted with our desire for economic power. This greed on our part is certainly not appreciated. But even this greed is far less than powers of the past.

Butch



Edwynn -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/27/2012 9:08:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

As an American, I might wonder why we embarked on this mission to spread democracy and save the world from itself. The rest of the world doesn't really appreciate it,


This I believe is wrong...and history proves it. If as you say the rest of the world does not appreciate our efforts then why do so many strive to emulate our form of government?


I don't know of many countries that are actually striving to emulate the US model of having corporate CEOs, super lobbyists, and other functionaries staffing everything from the VP of the US to Defense Secretary to Secretary of the Treasury, along with department heads of the most important regulatory agencies. Many Asian countries, e.g., learned the hard way that crony capitalism, especially in the form of crony 'regulation' as exists in the US, did not work for them.


quote:

The world as almost completely changed by our example...and for the better.


The Germanic and Nordic countries have assiduously avoided our example (though not completely), and are the better for it, as evidenced by a variety of superior 'purely economic' and other (arguably more) socially relevant measures.

You seem to be possessed of the hubris that the US invented 'freedom,' 'liberty,' etc., which sense of hubris we likely inherited from the Brit,s who think they invented culture and thought it a blessing to the world to force such culture down their throats and eviscerate anything previously existing in that regard in whatever land they chose to 'bless.'

To the extent that the world progresses, it would certainly be in spite of the efforts of empire and colonialism, certainly not because of it.


There is a difference between simply handing someone a book vs. putting a gun to someone's head and then handing them the book.






Politesub53 -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/27/2012 11:16:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

As an American, I might wonder why we embarked on this mission to spread democracy and save the world from itself. The rest of the world doesn't really appreciate it,


This I believe is wrong...and history proves it. If as you say the rest of the world does not appreciate our efforts then why do so many strive to emulate our form of government? The world as almost completely changed by our example...and for the better.

But I will agree or perhaps say our message is the right one... our freedoms and individual opportunity that inspires enslaved peoples of the world, but our methods were tainted with our desire for economic power. This greed on our part is certainly not appreciated. But even this greed is far less than powers of the past.

Butch


I believe you will find it isnt your form of government, unless they have moved the Mother of all Parliaments. [8D]

Democracy started in Greece and spread from there.

I also think it is somewhat crass of the West to think they can push our form of democracy whose very concept of right and wrong is alien to us, just as ours is alien to them. Afghanistan and its Jirgas spring to mind, they have served the people well for over a thousand years.



meatcleaver -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/27/2012 12:27:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: herworshipper

"English interference in Ireland often had more to do with the great European chess game than England wanting power over ireland. Ireland was seen as the back door to England by the Spanish first, then by the French, which the English were aware of. In fact the Battle of the Boyne which myth tells us was more about Catholics against Protestants was really about Louis XIV trying to expand his influence through James."

That sounds like a British perspective. Often, when the oppressed or subordinate powers rebel, their rebellions are interpreted by the oppressing power as a move by their foreign enemies. They never see that the oppressed do not want to be oppressed and may turn to the oppressor's enemies for help.


Huh? Well of course it is the English perspective, they were the ones intent on closing what they considered the back door to England from the Spanish and French. The French weren't in Ireland to help the Irish, they were there to extend French power by putting James on the throne and yes, the Irish were sandwiched between England and French. Though like most people in those times, no matter how ordinary people saw themselves, the warlords were always in charge. The laugh being that history sees William as an English king although the English were every bit under William's (or more correctly Willem van Oranje) boot as the Irish.



meatcleaver -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/27/2012 12:43:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

This I believe is wrong...and history proves it. If as you say the rest of the world does not appreciate our efforts then why do so many strive to emulate our form of government? The world as almost completely changed by our example...and for the better.

But I will agree or perhaps say our message is the right one... our freedoms and individual opportunity that inspires enslaved peoples of the world, but our methods were tainted with our desire for economic power. This greed on our part is certainly not appreciated. But even this greed is far less than powers of the past.

Butch


Western democracy evolved from north Germanic tribes who elected their kings and killed them if they got too powerful or big for their boots. We use greek words to describe the system because western scholars in the renaisance elevated classical greek culture to a sort of ersatz perfection, however Greek democracy was really an oligarchy, the only people being able to vote were male citizens who were a minority. The irony being Greek philosophers could spout about democracy and freedom as well as the meaning of life while slaves built Athens around them. We can see the traces of the origins of Germanic democracy in place names in England, such as Ing as BirmINGham, which means the gathering place of the people. Germanic culture is probably also the reason why feminism began in north Europe because women had a more equal role in society in north germanic tribes but were suppressed by Christianity but like many aspects of pre-Christian culture, Christianity couldn't wipe them out.

BTW The founding fathers got most of their ideas about freedom from the English.



ermood -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/27/2012 5:58:44 PM)

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What goals? To spread democracy? To make more money for American corporations? Or is it just for the glory of victory?


Creating some form of puppet states, and restoring peace are their biggest failures of the wars.

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Okay, I see what you mean now. The U.S. might be facing bankruptcy soon, although I think that we can still recover.


The US could certanly recover but not in the way how it goes now... the only thing that is happening is that they put the debtroof higher and higher, in the end the rest of the world will stop that.
If the US would retreat all of its troops in forgein countries it would save tons of money already, Also when they would stop some of these useless boycots of them.

quote:

I suppose it would depend on what you mean by "listen to the U.S."

It's quite clear that many around the world are taking great efforts just to get the attention of the U.S., whether it involves demonstrations at U.S. embassies around the world or more aggressive violent actions directed against American citizens, American property, or American military facilities. Their biggest complaint seems to be that Americans aren't listening to them, not the other way around. Americans are often chastised for not knowing enough about geography or much else about the outside world, while more non-Americans seem to know an awful lot about America (or claim to). Not to mention how much they eat up American music, movies, TV shows, McDonalds, Disneyland, Las Vegas, Hollywood.

I won't deny that America is falling, although I wouldn't say "rapidly." It only seems that way because we've been falling for decades and it's only now that more people are starting to take notice.


True, the US is falling since the cold war, and yes its now that people and countries stand up against the US policy's.
We (from outside the US) know that lots of US people are kind of blind when it comes to other countries then the US, but the major problem is that they stay blind even when the outside world sends a message... they oftenly don't watch the problem from the other side than that one from the US.
I don't know where the problem is in the matter of knowing/intrests in other countries, but its something the US should care about, especially since the US became the major power on earth.

quote:

Well, of course, our fear of Russia and Communism has driven U.S. policy since 1917, decades before they had any nukes. This fear pushed us into many directions, some of which has to do with the list you posted in your OP. U.S. apologists might argue that the reason for all those coups and incursions around the world was so that we could avoid a direct confrontation with the Soviets which might have led to a worldwide nuclear war.

And yes, there was good reason for the U.S. to fear Russia. Did the Russians fear the U.S.?


That is what geopolitical warfare is all about, gaining allies, creating coups and uprisings in your enemy's allies... and yes Russia did that to.
Mostly the US feared Communism, not Russia to be exact. I really don't know why actually... communism isn't a bad ideology at all, but it has to be set with a real communist leader (not one like stalin).
And yes i do believe the Russians feared the US, they where both the major powers in the world, if hell would brake loose it would be devastating, but to look at each of them differently i do think that the US had more to fear than Russia had.

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Which country would you fear more, Russia or the U.S.? During the Cold War, do you think the Netherlands should have sided with the Soviet Union? Or were they correct to join NATO and side with the United States?


Well, this is a complex one...

If i where a Dutch person at that time i would fear Russia more, but simple becouse they can reach the Netherlands very easely, unlike the US.
The Netherlands has done the correct thing to join NATO, Belgium, France, and the UK also joined, and they lie very close to the Netherlands.
But if for example all of Germany, Belgium, Luxembourg and the other EEU countries had joined the SU, the Netherlands should to.

At the end it comes all on to the major powers close to my countrie, simple becouse we (as the Netherlands) have nothing to say in the worldpolitics (see the Dutch history, taken by the French, Spanish and Germans), when it comes to war in the Netherlands itself it is very easy to defeat. And that's why we chose back then the side of the closest major powers (France and the UK).



ermood -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/27/2012 6:03:29 PM)

quote:

There was never the paranoia in Europe during the cold war that there was in the USA and UK. Most Europeans realised the USSR couldn't mount an attack on the west because they couldn't trust their allies, they were just as likely to fight against the USSR than along side them. During the cold war, mostEuropeans thought American aggression would start the next world war, not the USSR. For example, it was well know in Europe that the USA siting nukes in Turkey was the provocation that led to the Soviet response of wanting to site nukes in Cuba.


This is mostly true, but Europe did fear the USSR, especially in the first 5/10 years after WW2... Europe whas still distroyed by the world war and they did fear a Russian invasion, that's why lots of them joined the NATO. Simply to secure themselfs.



ermood -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/27/2012 6:12:42 PM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ermood
quote:

Not the poorest by any measure. Sure, we have poor people in the United States, but at least they still have access to the basic necessities (although the system is starting to crack). I'll concede that there are some countries in Europe which may surpass the United States in several factors measuring quality of life, but compared to the world as a whole, I would still say that the U.S. is still in the top tier - not even close to the poorest.


This is what i always get from people, when i say the poorest country on earth i actually mean that on paper they are.
The US is on paper the poorest country of the earth, but (see biggest economy) they have the economic strength to recover themselfs from that.
For example, most countries would be bankrubt already 10 times when they would have the same debt as the US.



Facts, facts, and damned facts.


You're not even close, and yes I'm sure "that's all you get from people" who actually look at the numbers.

How bothersome that must be.


You clearly don't know what i mean with "on paper" do you?
Please look at what the Dutch meaning is of "on paper" and then search again, then you will find that the US is the poorest countrie on earth

Better said: if someone asks you, "how much is the debt of the US"
What would you reply?



kdsub -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/27/2012 8:47:07 PM)

quote:

believe you will find it isnt your form of government, unless they have moved the Mother of all Parliaments.

Democracy started in Greece and spread from there.

I also think it is somewhat crass of the West to think they can push our form of democracy whose very concept of right and wrong is alien to us, just as ours is alien to them. Afghanistan and its Jirgas spring to mind, they have served the people well for over a thousand years.


The Greeks may have been one of the first but ours is the first to work well. But there is very little in the Constitution that was not already in other governments in one for or another... I think what made the US unique is the particular combination of rights with checks and balances that allowed it to even survive a horrendous civil war and come out with the same Constitution.

I personally have always been against " Nation Building" and believe that all oppressed people when they realize the freedoms of the west, not just the US, will strive to gain those same freedoms without direct interference from us.

Otherwise I don’t like Bush and his attempts to make Afghanistan into a democracy modeled after our own but I do think Afghanistan has tasted the possibility of true freedom and will never go back to the Taliban or warlord rule again. Even if the Taliban reassert themselves when we leave they will be overthrown by their own people. Because they have seen what it can be like to live with true freedom…Opinion of course.

Butch



Edwynn -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/27/2012 9:34:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ermood

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ermood
quote:

Not the poorest by any measure. Sure, we have poor people in the United States, but at least they still have access to the basic necessities (although the system is starting to crack). I'll concede that there are some countries in Europe which may surpass the United States in several factors measuring quality of life, but compared to the world as a whole, I would still say that the U.S. is still in the top tier - not even close to the poorest.


This is what i always get from people, when i say the poorest country on earth i actually mean that on paper they are.
The US is on paper the poorest country of the earth, but (see biggest economy) they have the economic strength to recover themselfs from that.
For example, most countries would be bankrubt already 10 times when they would have the same debt as the US.



Facts, facts, and damned facts.


You're not even close, and yes I'm sure "that's all you get from people" who actually look at the numbers.

How bothersome that must be.


You clearly don't know what i mean with "on paper" do you?
Please look at what the Dutch meaning is of "on paper" and then search again, then you will find that the US is the poorest countrie on earth

Better said: if someone asks you, "how much is the debt of the US"
What would you reply?


If someone asked you "how much is the GDP of the US" what would you reply?

"More than twice as much as the next largest economy" would be the correct answer.

And no, I don't know what the Dutch meaning of "on paper" means, so please explain it to me and everyone else here.

In the rest of the world, the chart I gave a link to above means that in terms of public debt as % of GDP the US ranks fifth among the largest ten economies, and seventh in terms of total national debt as % of GDP.

Japan's public debt to GDP ratio alone is ~220%, well over twice that of the US.

But, I'm sure that as soon as you explain to the rest of us what the Dutch meaning of "on paper" is, you will show us how a country with twice the GDP of the next country and less than half the debt/GDP ratio of Japan (third largest economy in the world) is "the poorest country, on paper."

Spell it out for us.

Whether speaking of an individual or a corporation or a government, the amount of debt has no meaning of itself, but only in relation to revenue/income or vs. assets.



Politesub53 -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/28/2012 3:59:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

believe you will find it isnt your form of government, unless they have moved the Mother of all Parliaments.

Democracy started in Greece and spread from there.

I also think it is somewhat crass of the West to think they can push our form of democracy whose very concept of right and wrong is alien to us, just as ours is alien to them. Afghanistan and its Jirgas spring to mind, they have served the people well for over a thousand years.


The Greeks may have been one of the first but ours is the first to work well. But there is very little in the Constitution that was not already in other governments in one for or another... I think what made the US unique is the particular combination of rights with checks and balances that allowed it to even survive a horrendous civil war and come out with the same Constitution.

I personally have always been against " Nation Building" and believe that all oppressed people when they realize the freedoms of the west, not just the US, will strive to gain those same freedoms without direct interference from us.

Otherwise I don’t like Bush and his attempts to make Afghanistan into a democracy modeled after our own but I do think Afghanistan has tasted the possibility of true freedom and will never go back to the Taliban or warlord rule again. Even if the Taliban reassert themselves when we leave they will be overthrown by their own people. Because they have seen what it can be like to live with true freedom…Opinion of course.

Butch



Butch..............Your suggestion is nonsense. Some of you seem to think the world started in 1776.

If you really wish to suggest yours was the first democracy to work well, we can discuss the deep south back in the sixties.

Our idea of freedom isnt the same as other peoples, all the time the west continue with this bullshit notion, problems will exist.



Zonie63 -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/28/2012 4:42:07 AM)


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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Their biggest complaint seems to be that Americans aren't listening to them, not the other way around. Americans are often chastised for not knowing enough about geography or much else about the outside world, while more non-Americans seem to know an awful lot about America (or claim to).




I suppose if America is going to exert economic and military power over other peoples, those peoples are going to be pissed if America doesn't listen to them.


I agree, although I think it's also true that they're listening to America. As you say, America is exerting economic and military power over other peoples, so at least for some, they don't have any other choice but to listen to America. If the world was an apartment building, America would be the noisy neighbor playing loud music all hours of the night. You can't help but "listen" to that.

So, I think the OP's claim that the world isn't listening to America just doesn't make any sense. Even North Korea listens to us. They may hate us and threaten us, but they're still watching and listening.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Not to mention how much they eat up American music, movies, TV shows, McDonalds, Disneyland, Las Vegas, Hollywood.



This is largely to do with economic power and the USA insisting culture is business and should be open to free trade which means the country with the most economic power will win out. Very few British films are shown in British cinemas because US companies own 99% of british cinema screens and no British company has the economic power to compete. This is the same in most European countries, France being the exception which insists that culture is not economic and should not allowed to be colonised by countries with more economic power.


I realize that this was true just after World War II - a time when European cinema was in a shambles, for obvious reasons. America had an advantage in the post-war years, but why would that still be the case today?

Even given that the U.S. has the most economic power, there are some industries where we are failing miserably. Most of the devices I have on my desk in front of me were manufactured somewhere else - not in America.

But even if British films may not do too well (although some of them clearly have), British musicians have certainly made their mark on rock-and-roll and world culture at large. Economic power or not, they still had to have the talent to be able to do that. (On the other hand, many of those British musicians were influenced by earlier American musicians, so I guess we Americans can do a few things right.)

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Which country would you fear more, Russia or the U.S.? During the Cold War, do you think the Netherlands should have sided with the Soviet Union? Or were they correct to join NATO and side with the United States?



There was never the paranoia in Europe during the cold war that there was in the USA and UK. Most Europeans realised the USSR couldn't mount an attack on the west because they couldn't trust their allies, they were just as likely to fight against the USSR than along side them. During the cold war, mostEuropeans thought American aggression would start the next world war, not the USSR. For example, it was well know in Europe that the USA siting nukes in Turkey was the provocation that led to the Soviet response of wanting to site nukes in Cuba.


I can see some of what you're saying, but I can't imagine that most Europeans could have reasonably concluded that America was somehow more aggressive than the USSR. I won't deny that we've fought in some aggressive wars, but given the Soviet incursions into Finland, Poland, the Baltic Republics, Eastern Europe, Manchuria before, during, and after World War II, it should have been pretty obvious to Europeans which country was the more dangerous threat.

America may have a history of moderate aggression from time to time, but not really against Europe. Even with the Spanish-American War, all we did was attack their colonies, not Spain itself, as we had no such designs.

During the Cold War, our primary goal was more defensive, to maintain nations already within the Western sphere of influence and contain the spread of communism. Overall, I don't see how we can be considered the aggressor. It was North Korea which invaded South Korea. It was the USSR which blockaded Berlin. It was North Vietnam which invaded South Vietnam. We were mostly on the side of those who were defending. Whether we should have been involved at all is a larger issue, but that doesn't mean that we were on the side of the aggressors.



SimplyMichael -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/28/2012 7:14:55 AM)

Few would argue the Soviets were our moral superiors after WWII. The prosperity Eastern Europe is only now starting to see after the fall of the USSR makes that all too clear.

However, that doesn't make us saints and we certainly have plenty of blood on our hands supporting sime truly evil dictators and we did our best to stamp out democracy in many countries.

The vast majority of our interventions aftervthe fall of the USSR have ben in support of strategic plays for multinations over energy starting with Clinton's occupation of Somalia



meatcleaver -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/28/2012 7:44:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I realize that this was true just after World War II - a time when European cinema was in a shambles, for obvious reasons. America had an advantage in the post-war years, but why would that still be the case today?

Even given that the U.S. has the most economic power, there are some industries where we are failing miserably. Most of the devices I have on my desk in front of me were manufactured somewhere else - not in America.

But even if British films may not do too well (although some of them clearly have), British musicians have certainly made their mark on rock-and-roll and world culture at large. Economic power or not, they still had to have the talent to be able to do that. (On the other hand, many of those British musicians were influenced by earlier American musicians, so I guess we Americans can do a few things right.)



When I grew up, every teenager looked towards America and saw America as the land of freedom and adventure and wanted to travel across the expanses of America on a Harley. Certainly America or how America portreyed itself in film and music had appeal.

However, the WTO protects US hegomony in films, even China is complaining. The American film industry has so much economic power, hardly any other country can get a foot in the door.

As for music, you don't need an economically powerful music industry to get yourself heard, you just get in your van and play at venue after venue picking up loyal fans as you go. If you get enough loyal fans, the music industry will try and recruit you, which is what the Beatles, Rolling Stones and many others have done since.

Personally I don't think cultural industries should be protected by WTO, culture is not commerce, it is more important than that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I can see some of what you're saying, but I can't imagine that most Europeans could have reasonably concluded that America was somehow more aggressive than the USSR. I won't deny that we've fought in some aggressive wars, but given the Soviet incursions into Finland, Poland, the Baltic Republics, Eastern Europe, Manchuria before, during, and after World War II, it should have been pretty obvious to Europeans which country was the more dangerous threat.



Most Europeans weren't happy the Soviet Empire had its boot on eastern Europe but they understood why the USSR wanted buffer states between itself and western Europe, after all, both the French and Germans had invaded Russia with dire consequences for the Russians and in between that, the British and French had a war with Russia to stop it getting a warm water port.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

America may have a history of moderate aggression from time to time, but not really against Europe. Even with the Spanish-American War, all we did was attack their colonies, not Spain itself, as we had no such designs.


I think anti-Americanism was down to post war posturing and the enforcement of what was perceived as pre-war capitalism which caused the problems in Europe in the first place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
During the Cold War, our primary goal was more defensive, to maintain nations already within the Western sphere of influence and contain the spread of communism. Overall, I don't see how we can be considered the aggressor. It was North Korea which invaded South Korea. It was the USSR which blockaded Berlin. It was North Vietnam which invaded South Vietnam. We were mostly on the side of those who were defending. Whether we should have been involved at all is a larger issue, but that doesn't mean that we were on the side of the aggressors.



There was a lot of support in Europe for socialism and communism which did not equate as supporting the Soviets who might called themselves communist but were seen as a Russian empire and not a lot to do with communism or socialism at all. You also you have to remember, it was the failure militaristic capitalism which had caused all the trouble in Europe and many Europeans saw America as the new incarnation of militaristic capitalism.

As for Korea, what had that to do with the west and as for Vietnam, the British Prime Minister pointed out when he refused to send troops to Vietnam, Vietnam was not an ideological war but a colonial war, the Vietnamese wanted western imperialists out of their country, they had got rid of the French, now they wanted rid of the Americans. This tied in with the views of many Europeans on the left, they were glad their countries had lost their capitalist empires but were now seeing a new capitalist western empire in the shape of Amerrica, which was every bit as aggressive and as exploitative as the old empires.



meatcleaver -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/28/2012 7:53:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Few would argue the Soviets were our moral superiors after WWII. The prosperity Eastern Europe is only now starting to see after the fall of the USSR makes that all too clear.



There is an East German saying, our government (DDR) lied to us about everything....except capitalism.

My east German neighbour often says to me, we (east Germans) know what its like not to be free, west Germans don't, which is why they aren't free. Meaning westerners are every bit slaves to the system as what people in the east were, the only difference is you can go to Spain for your holiday, if you have a job and can afford it. Other than that, life is not that different.



MariaB -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/28/2012 10:30:25 AM)

Democracy my ass! Living in the land of the free is merely an illusion and so is the supposed power you have over your government. Only Americans believe they are living the American dream but if you ever get the chance to stand back and look at it, you will will see that democracy is merely a well put together mechanism used to convince the people of America that they have some control over their destiny.
America has been juggling a fake economy for 45 years. This is because voters want and need money, be that in tax reductions, housing costs, fuel costs etc. Its about maximizing individual wealth. If you don't give this to the people then the people don't give you their vote. The problem with pleasing the voters all of the time means bigger and bigger deficits have to be put in place.
The most important thing for individual voters is personal wealth, cost of living, jobs and economy. These things are far more important than a housing crisis two towns away or even such things as healthcare and education. The problem is, most people don't understand how economics work. They don't even know the difference between deficit and debt so how then can these people intelligently employ an economics manager on their behalf ?
You are not the only country that lives in a false economy but a false economy is what it is. We are now paying back the debt that our parents and their generation incurred on the country and our children and their children are the ones who will be crippled by the massive debt incurred by us. Debt is not about freedom, its imprisonment.




kdsub -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/28/2012 10:40:47 AM)

quote:

Butch..............Your suggestion is nonsense. Some of you seem to think the world started in 1776.


You misunderstood me I believe. As I said our democracy copied other existing or historic doctrine to form our Constitution. I don’t believe any other government had combined all the doctrine in one Constitution with checks and balances like ours up to that time.

So yes a very unique form of government started in 1776 and it has been copied over and over again through the years.

Please don’t think I believe the US through history has been a perfect example for others. I do believe the Constitution is… but as you pointed out we have not always followed or guaranteed our own proclaimed freedoms...But we have continually worked to change our shameful behavior and the guiding document that FORCED the change is the Constitution... and that is unique.

Imagine how unusual it is for a nation of say millions with the majority opposed to a particular doctrine to have that doctrine changed or thrown out overnight because of a document written 236 years ago.

Butch



kdsub -> RE: US supporting freedom and democracy? US against terrorism? (12/28/2012 11:00:27 AM)

I don’t feel I am being a homer to proclaim the United States as the most influential nation in the world in the last 60 years and the most powerful of all time. It is just the way things are and to deny this simple truth is to ignore history.

I would love to see how my country is recorded in history in 500 years or so…like you I guess I’m not so sure if it will be portrayed as I see it today…But no country ever is.

Butch



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