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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 9:41:15 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Trying again, with the same pic from Google






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Profile   Post #: 101
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 9:42:16 PM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

On gun safes, I tried snagging a picture off Facebook to share here, but there must be a loose nut behind the keyboard or something, because it won't upload.

It was one of those, "redneck solutions," things, and showed an upright freezer with the shelves removed, being used as a gun locker. Done properly, I think it would be very effective.

I don't know how hard it would be to pry the door off. Might just work tho.


Your weak point is the door handle. Take it off, bolt on a nice hardened steel one. Take a thick chain, the type used to chain down heavy equipment and chain the door shut. Use a nice fat enforcer lock.




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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 9:44:42 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Racist MY FUCKING ASS. The comment had to do with religious practices. That particular religion has adherents of every known ethnic and racial group on the planet.


And my religious practice is also well known on these boards. But, you used that to once again try to shut me up. Its not going to work.

How does it feel to be accused of something you didnt do?


What did I accuse you of besides not knowing the difference between a race and a religion?

As for your statement of "How does it feel to be accused of something you didnt do?"

Well, you did call me racist didnt you?

Here's my point.

You either blame victims for all crimes perpetrated against them or you blame them for none of the crimes perpetrated against them.

If a house is unlocked and money and jewelry is all over the place, do you blame the homeowner if he gets burglarized or the scumbag who steals?

If a woman is sunbathing nude, does some jerk have an excuse to force her into sex?

If a car is unlocked, is it the owner's fault if someone steals it?

Who is at fault, Is it the victim or the criminal?

You cant pick and choose and say "This crime and this one are the fault of the victim because he didn't take precautions but ALL the others are the fault of the criminal".

Start talk like that and women won't be allowed out of the house without a male relative present and full body covering.

You cant have it both ways.



< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 12/21/2012 9:50:14 PM >

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Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 9:46:18 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Oh God. About 10 years ago, I was living in a shared house with some druggie loser roomates, and had to chain my refrigerator shut, to keep them from helping themselves to my food. It's not a nice looking solution.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 9:47:45 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


And my religious practice is also well known on these boards. But, you used that to once again try to shut me up. Its not going to work.


That is a fucking LIE. I have no idea what your religion is, much less using it to try to shut you up.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 9:49:35 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Trying again, with the same pic from Google






An ax would have it open in seconds but I think it would work even in the event of a breakin.

Noone thinks to look in the freezer for stuff.

If they're not looking at it, they won't try to get inside it.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 9:53:28 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
You either blame victims for all crimes perpetrated against them or you blame them for none of the crimes perpetrated against them.

But she does have a point Hill. In the scenario presented we aren't blaming the gun owner for the crime the gun thieves committed. This is a conversation about the safe handling of some possession. And honestly, it's not like there aren't gajillions of rules about that sort of thing.

I see nothing wrong with saying to someone, "You may do activity X but you must take reasonable precautions to ensure that your activity doesn't harm others." I think the question here is around the word "reasonable". But your argument that it's blaming the victim doesn't hold water.

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 9:55:37 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Odds are that things taken in a home robbery will be sold or pawned to get drug money, or traded for drugs. If so, then the owner of those items that were stolen has just aided in the criminal getting drugs, and so should be held accountable for not having their household items secured in such a fashion that they could not be used for criminal activity. A crime is a crime whether anyone gets injured or not.


Odds are, but it cant be traced. Most items that are stolen, reported, then pawned are quickly recovered. If its a private sale, then the insurance pays off and the criminal is off the hook. But, without proof that the item stolen was actually used in the commission of a crime, someone cant be held responsible.

quote:

Yes, lock the fucking shit up so addicts cant get drugs and half the drug problems will be solved.


I agree!

quote:

Yes...PERSONAL responsibility...that means the person RESPONSIBLE for the crime is to blame, NOT the victem of the initial crime of theft. Put the blame and responsibility where it belongs...WITH THE CRIMINAL...not another victem.


I firmly believe in gun owner accountability and responsibility.

It goes both ways. Negligence doesnt absolve people of crimes.

And, while many of you think my ideas are way off mark, they are becoming prominent in the news.



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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 9:55:52 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		I'd go with a crowbar, rather than an ax, but as I say, it would be tougher to get into my freezer, than into the gun safe I have.

Of course, there isn't anything in there anyway. I secure my weapons differently. Very easy access, if you know right where to reach, but not places a burglar would be likely to reach into to begin with.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 9:56:48 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
You either blame victims for all crimes perpetrated against them or you blame them for none of the crimes perpetrated against them.

But she does have a point Hill. In the scenario presented we aren't blaming the gun owner for the crime the gun thieves committed. This is a conversation about the safe handling of some possession. And honestly, it's not like there aren't gajillions of rules about that sort of thing.

I see nothing wrong with saying to someone, "You may do activity X but you must take reasonable precautions to ensure that your activity doesn't harm others." I think the question here is around the word "reasonable". But your argument that it's blaming the victim doesn't hold water.

Here's the claim. if someone breaks into my house and steals one of my posessions and commits a crime with it, it's my fault.

What's your take on it?

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 10:07:23 PM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
An ax would have it open in seconds but I think it would work even in the event of a breakin.

Noone thinks to look in the freezer for stuff.

If they're not looking at it, they won't try to get inside it.

jmo but if something has a lock on it (& maybe a chain around it), I would think there is something in there for you want to keep people from opening it.. the lock (to me) draws attention to it.. I sorta like hidden rooms or a bookcase hiding a closet behind it.. jmo of course..

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 10:09:31 PM   
Kirata


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

Yanno? Like let's not even fucking go there, what he did do was bad enough. The assumption that without a gun he would have done less damage came out of somebody's ass. There is no reason to assume that.


Another assumption is that he would have killed if he didnt have a gun.

Can you prove that without a doubt? No. You are going on your own assumptions the same as I am.

You assume I'm assuming something. I do not see how declining to accept the facile assumption that except for guns he would have done less damage becomes "going on" the assumption that he would have done worse. Actually, I figure he would do about the same. We know the amount of damage he wanted to cause, and that wouldn't be any different in the absence of guns. He would just have to shop for other means.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/21/2012 10:14:30 PM >

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 10:09:34 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Here's the claim. if someone breaks into my house and steals one of my posessions and commits a crime with it, it's my fault.

What's your take on it?


Thats not the claim

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 10:11:23 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

Yanno? Like let's not even fucking go there, what he did do was bad enough. The assumption that without a gun he would have done less damage came out of somebody's ass. There is no reason to assume that.


Another assumption is that he would have killed if he didnt have a gun.

Can you prove that without a doubt? No. You are going on your own assumptions the same as I am.

You assume I'm assuming something. I do not see how declining to accept the facile assumption that except for guns he would have done less damage becomes "going on" the assumption that he would have done worse. Actually, I figure he would do about the same. We know the amount of damage he wanted to cause, and that wouldn't be any different in the absence of guns. He would just have to shop for other means.

K.



And I could easily see someone deciding not to go through with it to begin with if the easy means are not available.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 10:12:00 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Here's the claim. if someone breaks into my house and steals one of my posessions and commits a crime with it, it's my fault.

What's your take on it?


Thats not the claim

So if someone breaks into my house and steals my property (a gun) and commits a crime with it, I'm off the hook?

Is it A or B?

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 12/21/2012 10:16:44 PM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 10:17:12 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Well, the logging chain approach would be a dead giveaway, I think, but the lock on my freezer is a perfectly ordinary one, built right in by the manufacturer. It wouldn't draw a second look, especially with my big toolbox a few feet away, and some of the power tools that are in plain sight on the shelf unit next to that.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 10:19:13 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Here's the claim. if someone breaks into my house and steals one of my posessions and commits a crime with it, it's my fault.

What's your take on it?


Thats not the claim

So if someone breaks into my house and steals my property (a gun) and commits a crime with it, I'm off the hook?

Is it A or B?


My proposal was that all gun owners must have a safe.

If you have a safe, I would hope to whatever power you believe in, that you use it.

If you use it and they break into it and steal your guns, you are off the hook for any and all charges related to the improper storage of those guns.

You would have followed the regulations.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 10:24:16 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		So, if I don't have a safe and I'm a victim of a crime (breaking and entering) it's my fault if a gun gets stolen and a crime is later committed.

If a framing hammer or knife gets stolen and someone is killed with it, it's the thief's fault.

See how stupid that sounds?

How about a chainsaw and hockey mask? where does that come in?

Blame the crime victim.

Seriously, how far is it from "you must lock up this class of posessions or you go to jail if you're a crime victim" to "You must dress this way or go to jail if you are a crime victim"?

Break out the hijabs ladies.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 10:27:01 PM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well, the logging chain approach would be a dead giveaway, I think, but the lock on my freezer is a perfectly ordinary one, built right in by the manufacturer. It wouldn't draw a second look, especially with my big toolbox a few feet away, and some of the power tools that are in plain sight on the shelf unit next to that.

true, if it was built in by the manufacturer when it was bought, then yes, it would look ordinary (I dont think many people even use those locks), but if it was an obvious addition later on, then that would arouse my curiousity, I expect I am not unique in that.. I mean.. yer power tools sittin' right there.. omg!.. ya could be hidding a chopped up dead body in that freezer or something!!!...

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 10:27:44 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well, the logging chain approach would be a dead giveaway, I think, but the lock on my freezer is a perfectly ordinary one, built right in by the manufacturer. It wouldn't draw a second look, especially with my big toolbox a few feet away, and some of the power tools that are in plain sight on the shelf unit next to that.



Lotsa freezers have a barrel type lock. A bunch of old power tools to distract them and load them down is a good idea.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 120
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